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xmasbuck

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Not really since he signed a team friendly contract twice with the Indians. It's called the Indians organization has morals and made a promise. Why do people get mad when a team actually shows they have some morals and they keep their promises to the players?

And I am repeating myself because its not going to change so if the same question gets posted, it will have the same answer. 2 + 2 is 4 and always will be 4 regardless of what you say or do.

Now if this was MLB the Show or OOTP, Carrasco would be traded, but thats not real life.
he didn't leave 42 mil on the table - buy him a nice Rolex and keep faith with the 24 others players that you're trying to win
 

CDAV45

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If we didnt need a veterans presence, why did we have Giambi on the roster? Why did we have Trot Nixon? Why was Napoli such an important player for us?

You need guys to show the new guys the ropes. You don't do a new job without some type of training or person to show you around do you?

I get these guys know how to play baseball, but if you have no one to show by example how to go about your business nor do you have someone to help you through the low times cause because you are adjusting to stronger opponents, then you are more likely to struggle and to get into bad habits. Coaches are there to help, but you cannot deny you learn more from your peers than your managers at times do you not?
Giambi, Nixon, and Napoli were on the roster because they had a track record and the Indians were hoping that their games re-emerged on the cheap. If their "leadership" was so damn valuable they why no extensions? It's not like there isn't any experience on this team. It's packed full of guys that have been in the league for years and most of them have playoff experience. How's all that leadership working out right now?
 

sportscoach

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Giambi, Nixon, and Napoli were on the roster because they had a track record and the Indians were hoping that their games re-emerged on the cheap. If their "leadership" was so damn valuable they why no extensions? It's not like there isn't any experience on this team. It's packed full of guys that have been in the league for years and most of them have playoff experience. How's all that leadership working out right now?
They were all at the end of their Careers, you cannot resign guys who aren't able to play anymore physically can you? Giambi was here for a couple seasons. We let Napoli go because he wasn't physically able to do a whole lot (i mean we signed him knowing he already was on his last legs). Giambi retired with us, Nixon played only 11 games after his season with us. Napoli played one more season and went .193/.285/.428. He blew out his knee and hasn't played again since.

Nixon played for us in 07, Napoli played for us in 16. Both years we were surprise teams in the playoffs. Leadership isn't always about how many games played, its about innate abilities to lead and to work with your peers. Kipnis even stated last season, he was so used to having Brantley, Chisenhall etc around that it took him a moment to get used to them being gone. We lost them plus this off season we lost Otero and Kipnis who were leaders as well. Then we lost Bauer last season, then our leader by example in Kluber and then Clev with his strong personality. Why do you think Bieber, Plesac and Civale got integrated onto the team so well? They all stated those guys helped them right away by talking to them and leading by example. Brantley was the one who helped the other batters develop because of his cool head and he always kept the same approach at the plate. JRam missed EE at the beginning of last season. EE helped JRam develop as a player and kept his aggressive nature under control.

You dont see the behind the scenes, but if you listen to a lot of great players and guys who succeed in the pros, they always say hard work and getting taken under a veterans wing helped them get so far. Lindor has leadership, but he doesn't have the exact same personality nor experience these guys did that I am talking about. Los isnt a great leader, but he is a hard worker and willing worker. Naquin is the same way while JRam is a sparkplug. We are missing that ingredient that makes the dish of the Indians go from good to grand.
 

Obscured By Clouds

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If Sherman was the key to the Indians signing Lindor long-term, then why was their extension offer in the spring of 2017 embarrassingly low? The offer to Lindor was reported to be in the $100 million range. There's no dimension where Frankie was going to take such a low ball offer.

I have zero insight into whether or not the Dolans, in partnership with Sherman, were serious about paying our beloved SS fair-market value to extend his time in Cleveland beyond seven years, but based on their offer in 2017, I can't envision that they were ever serious about offering a $350 million-range deal to him.
You realize he was making only $579k in 2017, right? Then $623k in 2018. This is part of the leverage the Indians had on him back then, buying out those two dirt cheap seasons. Lindor and his agent are betting that he will make at least $300 million over 10 years if he hits open free agency after next season, which he is at the correct age where teams are willing to pony up those kind of contracts. At any point in time before Lindor hits free agency, he can have a career ending injury, or a series of injuries that basically makes him not worth that kind of money, like Grady Sizemore. At this point, the gamble has paid off for him, as even if he has a career ending injury, he has made enough to live comfortably the rest of his life.
 

Obscured By Clouds

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No way they ever entertained keeping Lindor. And I am damn glad they didn't and won't.

The rest of the team around him would be beyond pathetic.
The $100 million extension would have worked, but not $300+ million.
 

Obscured By Clouds

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i'm surprised we dont hear carrasco's name more - he's owed 12 mil each of the next two seasons and has a vesting option for the 3rd year at 15 mil if he pitches 170 innings - if they dont want to afford clevinger at say 8 mil for next season why would they want to drop that kind of money on cookie?
Carasco gave the Indians a very team friendly contract. Then, when the announcement of them moving salaries last off season, he came back to them to sign a team friendly extension. He did all of this because he loves the city and playing here. I am pretty sure there is a hand shake deal to not trade him, plus, with other players seeing him do this, if the Indians trade him, could cause some bad blood with other players
 

CDAV45

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They were all at the end of their Careers, you cannot resign guys who aren't able to play anymore physically can you? Giambi was here for a couple seasons. We let Napoli go because he wasn't physically able to do a whole lot (i mean we signed him knowing he already was on his last legs). Giambi retired with us, Nixon played only 11 games after his season with us. Napoli played one more season and went .193/.285/.428. He blew out his knee and hasn't played again since.

Nixon played for us in 07, Napoli played for us in 16. Both years we were surprise teams in the playoffs. Leadership isn't always about how many games played, its about innate abilities to lead and to work with your peers. Kipnis even stated last season, he was so used to having Brantley, Chisenhall etc around that it took him a moment to get used to them being gone. We lost them plus this off season we lost Otero and Kipnis who were leaders as well. Then we lost Bauer last season, then our leader by example in Kluber and then Clev with his strong personality. Why do you think Bieber, Plesac and Civale got integrated onto the team so well? They all stated those guys helped them right away by talking to them and leading by example. Brantley was the one who helped the other batters develop because of his cool head and he always kept the same approach at the plate. JRam missed EE at the beginning of last season. EE helped JRam develop as a player and kept his aggressive nature under control.

You dont see the behind the scenes, but if you listen to a lot of great players and guys who succeed in the pros, they always say hard work and getting taken under a veterans wing helped them get so far. Lindor has leadership, but he doesn't have the exact same personality nor experience these guys did that I am talking about. Los isnt a great leader, but he is a hard worker and willing worker. Naquin is the same way while JRam is a sparkplug. We are missing that ingredient that makes the dish of the Indians go from good to grand.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. You can argue that inanimate narrative all you wish and I'll counter with players like Sabathia, Carmona/Hernandez, Sizemore, Westbrook, Choo, Hafner, Blake, Betencourt, and Martinez were the reasons for the success in 2007, not Trot F'n Nixon and his "leadership" abilities. Napoli was signed for $10M after making $14.5M the prior year and put up fantastic numbers. I'd say his performance had a helluva lot more to do with the team's success than his "leadership". He hit 34 HR and had over 100 RBI for crying out loud.

It's easy to state that this team's shortcomings are due to player's that are no longer here and their intangibles, but that doesn't make it so. Every year there is a team that exceeds expectations. Those expectations aren't exceeded because of "leadership". They're exceeded because players perform. I give you the 2020 Chicago White Sox. They're loaded at just about every position and they're young. Are you saying that Abreu's "leadership abilities" are the reason for their success? Talent realized is the difference between a good season and one to forget.
 

Obscured By Clouds

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. You can argue that inanimate narrative all you wish and I'll counter with players like Sabathia, Carmona/Hernandez, Sizemore, Westbrook, Choo, Hafner, Blake, Betencourt, and Martinez were the reasons for the success in 2007, not Trot F'n Nixon and his "leadership" abilities. Napoli was signed for $10M after making $14.5M the prior year and put up fantastic numbers. I'd say his performance had a helluva lot more to do with the team's success than his "leadership". He hit 34 HR and had over 100 RBI for crying out loud.

It's easy to state that this team's shortcomings are due to player's that are no longer here and their intangibles, but that doesn't make it so. Every year there is a team that exceeds expectations. Those expectations aren't exceeded because of "leadership". They're exceeded because players perform. I give you the 2020 Chicago White Sox. They're loaded at just about every position and they're young. Are you saying that Abreu's "leadership abilities" are the reason for their success? Talent realized is the difference between a good season and one to forget.
I'll point out three things:

First, of those three vets, Napoli did put up great numbers during the regular season he was with us.

Second, I have read numerous articles on Giambi, little less on Napoli, and nothing on Nixon(like, ever) that coaches and managers, including Tito, saying that using that last roster spot on these types of vets, even when not really producing, can not be measured in what they bring to the clubhouse and to leadership with younger players.

When I read quotes from someone like Tito, or Sandy, saying that kind of stuff, I take their word for it.

Third, I in no way think not having a Nixon/Giambi/Napoli is the issue. I mean, if Santana does not qualify as that veteran bat(and veteran leader), no one does.

Bonus round: Ellis Burks was the greatest vet bat this team has brought in since the 90's resurgence, and yes, I am factoring in Murray.
 

CDAV45

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I'll point out three things:

First, of those three vets, Napoli did put up great numbers during the regular season he was with us.

Second, I have read numerous articles on Giambi, little less on Napoli, and nothing on Nixon(like, ever) that coaches and managers, including Tito, saying that using that last roster spot on these types of vets, even when not really producing, can not be measured in what they bring to the clubhouse and to leadership with younger players.

When I read quotes from someone like Tito, or Sandy, saying that kind of stuff, I take their word for it.

Third, I in no way think not having a Nixon/Giambi/Napoli is the issue. I mean, if Santana does not qualify as that veteran bat(and veteran leader), no one does.

Bonus round: Ellis Burks was the greatest vet bat this team has brought in since the 90's resurgence, and yes, I am factoring in Murray.
I've stated such already. I said that if Lindor, Ramirez, Santana, Naquin, Carrasco, Perez and a couple others that have experience(many have playoff experience) don't have "leadership" qualities then it doesn't exist. We're not missing Brantley's leadership. We're missing Brantley's ability to consistently hit.
 

Urban

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Being that he was hardly playing in San Diego, I was skeptical of how much Josh Naylor would contribute to the 2020 team with only a month in the regular season.

But I feel pretty good about him as an everyday contributor going forward. Despite an unimpressive .219 BA, his 11.3% K rate is very impressive and right in line with the 826 minor league PAs he had in 2018 and 2019. With consistent at bats I would think he starts to figure it out.
 
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Being that he was hardly playing in San Diego, I was skeptical of how much Josh Naylor would contribute to the 2020 team with only a month in the regular season.

But I feel pretty good about him as an everyday contributor going forward. Despite an unimpressive .219 BA, his 11.3% K rate is very impressive and right in line with the 826 minor league PAs he had in 2018 and 2019. With consistent at bats I would think he starts to figure it out.
Well, he can't be this bad, right? He's hitting .162 with five singles and a double in 37 at-bats and 2 RBI's. One hit in his last 13 at-bats. He'll get some opportunities this weekend since three of the four Tiger starters are right-handed. I remember that Franmil Reyes sucked for a few weeks after coming over from San Diego, then he started hitting. Maybe Naylor just needs to get settled in. The door is definitely wide open for him here as opposed to San Diego. We need an outfielder who can hit and we will probably need a first baseman next year so Naylor is definitely in the right organization.
 

The Human Q-Tip

Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up!
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There is NO DOUBT that after 2023, in his age 29 season, having a combined two year & plus $ 50 MM deal would be the least he would get....

Thoughts?..
I agree with @Urban. There is always going to be significant doubt when you're talking about the value of the contract a player will be able to sign that many years down the road. Injuries alone are a major risk for any player.
 

CDAV45

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I'd give up a nice pitching prospect and another piece to get Willi Castro back. He would look good for us at 2B for the next couple of seasons. I hated it when they traded him, but he was absolutely blocked.
 

sportscoach

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I'd give up a nice pitching prospect and another piece to get Willi Castro back. He would look good for us at 2B for the next couple of seasons. I hated it when they traded him, but he was absolutely blocked.
I dont think anyone expected Castro to jump like he did as quick as he did.

His slash at AA in 97 games when we traded him, .245/.303/.345

He didn't hit like he was anything special, but since he has been in Detriot, he just keeps hitting and hitting. I think at the time we made the right move, he just didn't pan out nor mix right with the team overall. We cannot win all trades at the end of the day
 

xmasbuck

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leonys martin? - but still - he started the season at the tigers satellite camp, so he didnt even make their team out of "spring training"
 

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