Game 15 | Cleveland @ Detroit | November 25, 2009 | 8:00 PM EST

[imshakheisshaq]

Akronite stole most of my thunder...but there is one thing I wanted to add. You're incorrect about struggling on both O and D when Shaq is in. Stereo posted that with Shaq the Cavs allow an average of 91.8 pts/game when he has been out 101.0 . Also with Shaq, the Cavs allowed an average of 30.7 points per game in the paint ... without Shaq 40.4 . It is very obvious that he has/will make our defense better

On the offensive side, with Shaq the Cavs are shooting 47% from 3 point range. Without Shaq only 40%. Hickson was just starting to get a feel before Shaq went out. I don't think you'll see much of a offensive drop off when Shaq returns. Plus, they are already playing much better than a month ago and I believe that they still have substantial room to improve as they gain more familarity with each other.

Don't pull a quote of of an entire argument and misrepresent what I was saying! I mean that I could understand IF it happened when Shaqs in but I find it hard to understand when it happens with a team that has been together for a while!

It's funny that by me saying that the team pretty much only relies on LeBron to pull us out a win would bring so much criticism, when anyone with eyes can see that! We are getting better slowly but that's not saying much when Shaq hasn't been playing and it's mostly the same team from last season... this team (same people obviously) is not better than they were last season at this same time! You are riding them hard... all I said was "How good are we really if we haven't blown out 1 game... then we let the worse teams stay close enough to pull off a win. This game is not really close but only up14-16 as if the Pistons weren't down MOST of their best players"... then "you" came at me like flies to trash! What was our largest margin of victory so far? How much rest during games has Bron had out of the 15 we have played? When has it not been all on LeBron to win in the end? How many times can you use the "down our starting center" excuse? This is just like me arguing with my cousin's husband the other night... I said Lakers could not repeat w/o Gasol but he thinks they can... no matter what I say to a STAN they are always going to see what they want and despise anyone who says different. I don't need anyone to agree with me, I come here to state my opinions whether you like them or not! I don't have to prove to you whether I am a fan or not... you may think what I say is idiotic all you want! We are not that good (doesn't mean I don't think they never will be but I'm speaking on here and now!)... LeBron is going to get his... the other players have to step it up!! I believe we can be good enough to take it all! I hope it works out. I am going to get pissed at the guys at times (overboard some of the time) and yell at the tv or from the stands... I am going to cheer them on and wish (don't pray for sports) with everything in me for them to win.

 

[Vindicate2]

Don't pull a quote of of an entire argument and misrepresent what I was saying! I mean that I could understand IF it happened when Shaqs in but I find it hard to understand when it happens with a team that has been together for a while!

It's funny that by me saying that the team pretty much only relies on LeBron to pull us out a win would bring so much criticism, when anyone with eyes can see that! We are getting better slowly but that's not saying much when Shaq hasn't been playing and it's mostly the same team from last season... this team (same people obviously) is not better than they were last season at this same time! You are riding them hard... all I said was "How good are we really if we haven't blown out 1 game... then we let the worse teams stay close enough to pull off a win. This game is not really close but only up14-16 as if the Pistons weren't down MOST of their best players"... then "you" came at me like flies to trash! What was our largest margin of victory so far? How much rest during games has Bron had out of the 15 we have played? When has it not been all on LeBron to win in the end? How many times can you use the "down our starting center" excuse? This is just like me arguing with my cousin's husband the other night... I said Lakers could not repeat w/o Gasol but he thinks they can... no matter what I say to a STAN they are always going to see what they want and despise anyone who says different. I don't need anyone to agree with me, I come here to state my opinions whether you like them or not! I don't have to prove to you whether I am a fan or not... you may think what I say is idiotic all you want! We are not that good (doesn't mean I don't think they never will be but I'm speaking on here and now!)... LeBron is going to get his... the other players have to step it up!! I believe we can be good enough to take it all! I hope it works out. I am going to get pissed at the guys at times (overboard some of the time) and yell at the tv or from the stands... I am going to cheer them on and wish (don't pray for sports) with everything in me for them to win.

You certainly have a right to your opinon and I see where you are coming from with Lebron caring the load, but I didn't agree with your supporting points (partiicular with Shaq.... my opinon). Also, whether you intended it or not, your post come off in almost a alarmist/panic state. My perception from your posts is that if we don't get this fix now, we're not going to win a title. I guess what gets me frustrated is that some fans believe that we should be playing perfect basketball at this point. Don't get me wrong, I see major room for improvement, but I think it says something that we aren't playing our best basketball and we're 11-4 . Boston almost lost to Philly on Wednesday at home and the Magic lost to the Heat at home. My point is that none of those teams are playing 4 quarters of solid basketball .... it's still too early in the season. We win tonight the Cavs will be tied for the best record in the Eastern Conference.

Now, since you asked some questions, I'm going to answer them
What was our largest margin of victory so far?
17 against Minnesota. At that point we had Shaq and JJ wasn't part of the starting line up.

How much rest during games has Bron had out of the 15 we have played?
James is averaging 38 minutes. Even with all of the blow outs last year, he average 37.7 minutes a game. In my opinon, the bench is already doing a better job of staying close even or extending the lead when he is out than last year. If they have everyone healthy, I think James minutes will be lower than any point in his career.

When has it not been all on LeBron to win in the end?
This one is tough to answer because I think it is somewhat subjective. Are you talking about scoring baskets the final 5 minutes or the final 2 minutes or game winnning shots? This is purely subjective, but I would say for sure Minn, Orlando, Charlotte, Washington (at home). The questionable games would be Pistons and NYC. Both teams made a run in the 4th, but I'm not sure if they we're in any real danger of losing those games. Based on that I would say about 50% of the wins didn't require James to score in the final two minutes to win.... again this is very subjective. Keep in mind that the games we didin't rely on James... that Shaq was in the lineup for the Min, Orlando, Charlotte, and Washington games.

How many times can you use the "down our starting center" excuse?
None. They are playing different types of basketball each night to win. In Detriot it was more of a half court game, against Golden State it was up and down high scoring event. This team can go either way. That is why they are undefeated this year when they reach 100 points (8-0). They can score 111 against golden state or 107 against Miami and hold Charlotte to 79. It is frustrating to see them score 60+ in the first half and struggle in the second half, but as long as they get to 100 they have a great shot to win. You may see this as an excuse, but I'd like to see Shaq for another 10-15 games before I start worrying where were at (point diff etc....). In the end, I think they have been improving from week to week which is all that I can ask.

 

[imshakheisshaq]

You certainly have a right to your opinon and I see where you are coming from with Lebron caring the load, but I didn't agree with your supporting points (partiicular with Shaq.... my opinon). Also, whether you intended it or not, your post come off in almost a alarmist/panic state. My perception from your posts is that if we don't get this fix now, we're not going to win a title. I guess what gets me frustrated is that some fans believe that we should be playing perfect basketball at this point. Don't get me wrong, I see major room for improvement, but I think it says something that we aren't playing our best basketball and we're 11-4 . Boston almost lost to Philly on Wednesday at home and the Magic lost to the Heat at home. My point is that none of those teams are playing 4 quarters of solid basketball .... it's still too early in the season. We win tonight the Cavs will be tied for the best record in the Eastern Conference.

Now, since you asked some questions, I'm going to answer them
What was our largest margin of victory so far?
17 against Minnesota. At that point we had Shaq and JJ wasn't part of the starting line up.

How much rest during games has Bron had out of the 15 we have played?
James is averaging 38 minutes. Even with all of the blow outs last year, he average 37.7 minutes a game. In my opinon, the bench is already doing a better job of staying close even or extending the lead when he is out than last year. If they have everyone healthy, I think James minutes will be lower than any point in his career.

When has it not been all on LeBron to win in the end?
This one is tough to answer because I think it is somewhat subjective. Are you talking about scoring baskets the final 5 minutes or the final 2 minutes or game winnning shots? This is purely subjective, but I would say for sure Minn, Orlando, Charlotte, Washington (at home). The questionable games would be Pistons and NYC. Both teams made a run in the 4th, but I'm not sure if they we're in any real danger of losing those games. Based on that I would say about 50% of the wins didn't require James to score in the final two minutes to win.... again this is very subjective. Keep in mind that the games we didin't rely on James... that Shaq was in the lineup for the Min, Orlando, Charlotte, and Washington games.

How many times can you use the "down our starting center" excuse?
None. They are playing different types of basketball each night to win. In Detriot it was more of a half court game, against Golden State it was up and down high scoring event. This team can go either way. That is why they are undefeated this year when they reach 100 points (8-0). They can score 111 against golden state or 107 against Miami and hold Charlotte to 79. It is frustrating to see them score 60+ in the first half and struggle in the second half, but as long as they get to 100 they have a great shot to win. You may see this as an excuse, but I'd like to see Shaq for another 10-15 games before I start worrying where were at (point diff etc....). In the end, I think they have been improving from week to week which is all that I can ask.

No, I don't think we should be playing GREAT ball and I definitely don't feel we have to fix it all right now... it just bothers me that we have been playing a good quarter here and there and basically have to hold on to win a lot. I don't panic when it comes to bball b/c I know how up and down this game can be... heck, I was still thinking Miami could win out at the end of the season to reach the playoffs during Shaq's final time there, when we had only won a very FEW amount of games! The first comment I made in this thread (about letting worse teams hang on) was b/c I was ticked that we were struggling (again) after have a big lead and letting it dwindle. Which part about Shaq you didn't agree with?