Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #15 | Celtics @ Cavs | Nov. 15

[RchfldCavRaised]

What's with all the negativity?? The Cavs lost one game and still sit at 9-6, FAR better than any of us expected at the beginning of the season, especially given the difficulty of their schedule to start. They've been competitive in every game and won games that, quite frankly, defy the stats & logic.

I still believe this is a playoff team, as long as Mobley, Garland, & Rubio remain healthy. We can withstand & have withstood injuries to other players already. This team play hard, they play smart, & they play together and they're an absolute joy to watch.

It's not negative at all. It's making a sobering assessment of what can improve/lift the ceiling of the current team.

A good wing and better coaching. Ironically, the coaching may be compounding the wing situation and that's what these posts are exploring

 

[BimboColesHair]

Good god. Team is missing 3 guys that combine for almost 40 a night for an extended period, and last night were missing 4 guys that combine for 54 a night, and we don't expect them to take a fairly good hit to their scoring capabilities as a team?

The greatest offensive mind alive would struggle to score at a high clip getting significant minutes from Wade, Okoro, Fall, Valentine, and Stevens out of necessity with half of their normal rotation out.

The offense was just fine with everyone healthy, in fact it was performing better than its stats, guys just couldn't hit wide open 3s being generated for them to save their lives.

And I'm sorry, but Denzel fucking Valentine won't be in the rotation for the next 20 games, not unless you think Love, Markk, and Allen are all out for the next 20 games and Sexton's leg fell off.

 

[sailfish]

It's not negative at all. It's making a sobering assessment of what can improve/lift the ceiling of the current team.

A good wing and better coaching. Ironically, the coaching may be compounding the wing situation and that's what these posts are exploring

I just saw that Mobley got hurt and is having an MRI on his elbow. Losing him would really hurt, as he's been our most impactful payer. This team is quickly turning into a MASH unit. Doesn't the coaching staff get some credit for the 9-6 record and keeping the team competitive in spite of all the injuries? I'm not sure what some of you expected?!

Adding a wing is something that needs to happen, but it may have to wait until the offseason.

 

[Man Called X]

What's with all the negativity?? The Cavs lost one game and still sit at 9-6, FAR better than any of us expected at the beginning of the season, especially given the difficulty of their schedule to start. They've been competitive in every game and won games that, quite frankly, defy the stats & logic.

I still believe this is a playoff team, as long as Mobley, Garland, & Rubio remain healthy. We can withstand & have withstood injuries to other players already. This team play hard, they play smart, & they play together and they're an absolute joy to watch.

Because no matter how great your defense is, if you can't score, you aren't going to win games. What we are doing is not sustainable for an 82 game season. The ball movement that was there a few games ago hasn't been there. Turnovers have went up.

There have always been complaints about inbound plays, but I'm primarily worried about a 4th quarter offense that involves one of our 2 guards (was 3) being a stud to win us the game. Offense become stagnant and relies too much on shot creation through ISO.

Seeing Mobley gone the last 11 minutes of the game really put a spotlight on how much he cleans up on the defensive end. You have no bigs, so you continue to run funneling defense? That's a mind-bogglingly stupid decision that makes absolutely no sense to me.

I really think we're in a GS situation where this team won't excel until we find our Steve Kerr.

 

[sailfish]

Because no matter how great your defense is, if you can't score, you aren't going to win games. What we are doing is not sustainable for an 82 game season. The ball movement that was there a few games ago hasn't been there. Turnovers have went up.

There have always been complaints about inbound plays, but I'm primarily worried about a 4th quarter offense that involves one of our 2 guards (was 3) being a stud to win us the game. Offense become stagnant and relies too much on shot creation through ISO.

Seeing Mobley gone the last 11 minutes of the game really put a spotlight on how much he cleans up on the defensive end. You have no bigs, so you continue to run funneling defense? That's a mind-bogglingly stupid decision that makes absolutely no sense to me.

I really think we're in a GS situation where this team won't excel until we find our Steve Kerr.

Is it a perfect roster? No. I think we can all see that.

I don't think the coaching staff is holding this team back By all accounts, they've overachieved thus far, given their youth, the lack of experience, and some holes in the roster. You have to give credit to the coaching staff for how this team has performed thus far. They've been the talk of the NBA.

 

[Man Called X]

Good god. Team is missing 3 guys that combine for almost 40 a night for an extended period, and last night were missing 4 guys that combine for 54 a night, and we don't expect them to take a fairly good hit to their scoring capabilities as a team?

The greatest offensive mind alive would struggle to score at a high clip getting significant minutes from Wade, Okoro, Fall, Valentine, and Stevens out of necessity with half of their normal rotation out.

The offense was just fine with everyone healthy, in fact it was performing better than its stats, guys just couldn't hit wide open 3s being generated for them to save their lives.

And I'm sorry, but Denzel fucking Valentine won't be in the rotation for the next 20 games, not unless you think Love, Markk, and Allen are all out for the next 20 games and Sexton's leg fell off.

Our offense wasn't just fine with everyone healthy. It was shooting like shit, and even generating the most assists per game put us as a middle of the pack offensive team. It was relying on our guards to throw lobs and Mobley to clean up everything else.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Our offense wasn't just fine with everyone healthy. It was shooting like shit, and even generating the most assists per game put us as a middle of the pack offensive team. It was relying on our guards to throw lobs and Mobley to clean up everything else.

It was shooting like shit...on wide open looks generated by the offense, hence what I meant by "performing better than its stats". The offense was hammering people inside to generate wide open looks on kick outs when defenses started collapsing for Lauri, Love, Sexton off ball and they just weren't hitting anything. Those are 3 above average shooters from 3 too, for their careers.

Regardless, safe to say the stakes have changed with the Cavs. Team is obnoxiously depleted thanks to Covid and some bad luck with Sexton and the sky is falling after a near win vs Boston missing their starting SG, SF, C and 1st big off the bench.

 

[Man Called X]

Is it a perfect roster? No. I think we can all see that.

I don't think the coaching staff is holding this team back By all accounts, they've overachieved thus far, given their youth, the lack of experience, and some holes in the roster. You have to give credit to the coaching staff for how this team has performed thus far. They've been the talk of the NBA.

I think JBB has done a hell of a job getting them all to buy in and building that team chemistry. I won't deny that in the least. He does a great job using his challenges and working the refs. But I will absolutely question his X&Os and his rotation/substitution patterns. They are a seriously limiting factor in the ceiling of this team.

 

[Cassity14]

Does anyone else see the obvious correlation?

When the team plays shit offensive talents big minutes, the offense looks like shit.

I know it's been a while, but we saw a team swinging the ball all over the court and finding the open man, wherever he was, on almost every possession just a couple of weeks ago. Low and behold, as soon as players with any level of offensive competency in Sexton, Lauri, Love, Allen, etc. are out and their minutes go to the Okoros, Wades, Falls and Valentines of the world, the offense falls apart.

When non-NBA players are getting large chunks of NBA minutes, you're not going to look like an NBA team. It's really that simple.

Sexton being out long term really muddles things, but I think the Cavs can survive Obricko when he's the only non-threat on the floor with the starters.

If the offense looks as bogged down as it has the last two games once Love, Lauri, and Allen are all back, then I'll be more willing to complain about it.

 

[Marcus]

I think JBB has done a hell of a job getting them all to buy in and building that team chemistry. I won't deny that in the least. He does a great job using his challenges and working the refs. But I will absolutely question his X&Os and his rotation/substitution patterns. They are a seriously limiting factor in the ceiling of this team.

I said the same thing in the JBB thread, but it bears repeating here.

Look, I'm not even upset by that loss last night. If anything, I'm impressed with the way the team fought for a full 48, knowing that they were missing three (and by the end of the game, four) starters in addition to a veteran rotational big off the bench. When this team is healthy, guys like Wade and Valentine are going to shift back to the end of the bench.

If anything, a loss like last night spotlights the need for more depth and the glaring need for a starting NBA-caliber wing.

JBB is a middle of the pack coach - scrappy defense, his players all seem to love him, and they all leave it on the floor each and every night. He will get you to the playoffs, at least.

When the time comes to take that next step into deep playoff/championship contention - and I think that window is going to be opening sooner than people think - I'm not so sure that he's going to be the coach to get them there, as he seems to be very limited as a tactician. Maybe the Cavs could bring in some kind of offensive coordinator to help design/run/call plays on that side of the floor?

 

[BimboColesHair]

Does anyone else see the obvious correlation?

When the team plays shit offensive talents big minutes, the offense looks like shit.

I know it's been a while, but we saw a team swinging the ball all over the court and finding the open man, wherever he was, on almost every possession just a couple of weeks ago. Low and behold, as soon as players with any level of offensive competency in Sexton, Lauri, Love, Allen, etc. are out and their minutes go to the Okoros, Wades, Falls and Valentines of the world, the offense falls apart.

When non-NBA players are getting large chunks of NBA minutes, you're not going to look like an NBA team. It's really that simple.

Sexton being out long term really muddles things, but I think the Cavs can survive Obricko when he's the only non-threat on the floor with the starters.

If the offense looks as bogged down as it has the last two games once Love, Lauri, and Allen are all back, then I'll be more willing to complain about it.

Right.

At full strength they were putting up 102.5 PPG in 7 games

Minus just Love they scored 113 points in just 1 game

Minus Love and Marrk they put up 111.6 PPG in 3 games

Minus Love, Markk, and Sexton they are putting up 93.7 PPG in 4 games

And they were doing that with all 3 of those guys shooting well below their career average from 3.

It's almost like losing talent makes an impact on your teams production. It also shows the importance of Sexton to this team as it is currently constructed, which I am sure half of this board does not want to admit.

 

[sailfish]

I think JBB has done a hell of a job getting them all to buy in and building that team chemistry. I won't deny that in the least. He does a great job using his challenges and working the refs. But I will absolutely question his X&Os and his rotation/substitution patterns. They are a seriously limiting factor in the ceiling of this team.

No coach is perfect and all have their own strengths & weaknesses. JBB has done an excellent job getting the absolute most out of this young team and really getting them to overachieve. Is he the guy to win you a championship? Maybe not, but that's something to be addressed once this team is a legit title contender.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I think JBB has done a hell of a job getting them all to buy in and building that team chemistry. I won't deny that in the least. He does a great job using his challenges and working the refs. But I will absolutely question his X&Os and his rotation/substitution patterns. They are a seriously limiting factor in the ceiling of this team.

I'll ask you a few questions.

Can a coach learn and develop as well? Is JBB a finished product as a coach, in your mind?

It's just crazy to me that when the team was 0-2 this board posted it's schedule for the next like 20 games and said "find their 1st win, I don't see it" and in S34 no less (I believe, could be wrong). Yet here they are 9-6 after a grueling start to the season and a ridiculous amount of minutes missed by rotation pieces and starters to this point.

Some of that has to be because of the coaching, whether we want to admit that or not. And not just "working the refs" or "successful challenges" lengths of coaching, or even "he gets them to play hard" lengths of coaching.

The Xs and Os looked just fine to me full strength, even just fine down Love and Markk. Ball didn't stagnate, assist numbers were high, wide open 3s being generated, easy looks at the hoop being generated. They just couldn't hit a 3 with their 3 best off ball shooters from 3 to start the season. I wish they played at a faster pace, but that was about my only complaint early on.

I guess I don't understand wanting to discuss moving off the coach already when the team is over performing literally everyone's expectations to this point and they have all clearly bought into him. For every Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr there are like 50 coaching changes from culture guy to the "better Xs and Os guy" that just blows up in franchises faces. And I want nothing to do with moving off of someone who has a very young teams attention at the moment.

Again, JBB is not a good coach right now, he's not a bad coach either. But I at least want to see if he can grow with the young team over the next year or 2 before I start saying he ain't the guy to get them to the next level. Right now, I love that he has gotten a Cavs team to buy in, play hard, finish games, and actually entertain me for the first time in 4 years.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I'll ask you a few questions.

Can a coach learn and develop as well? Is JBB a finished product as a coach, in your mind?

It's just crazy to me that when the team was 0-2 this board posted it's schedule for the next like 20 games and said "find their 1st win, I don't see it" and in S34 no less (I believe, could be wrong). Yet here they are 9-6 after a grueling start to the season and a ridiculous amount of minutes missed by rotation pieces and starters to this point.

Some of that has to be because of the coaching, whether we want to admit that or not. And not just "working the refs" or "successful challenges" lengths of coaching, or even "he gets them to play hard" lengths of coaching.

The Xs and Os looked just fine to me full strength, even just fine down Love and Markk. Ball didn't stagnate, assist numbers were high, wide open 3s being generated, easy looks at the hoop being generated. They just couldn't hit a 3 with their 3 best off ball shooters from 3 to start the season. I wish they played at a faster pace, but that was about my only complaint early on.

I guess I don't understand wanting to discuss moving off the coach already when the team is over performing literally everyone's expectations to this point and they have all clearly bought into him. For every Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr there are like 50 coaching changes from culture guy to the "better Xs and Os guy" that just blows up in franchises faces. And I want nothing to do with moving off of someone who has a very young teams attention at the moment.

Again, JBB is not a good coach right now, he's not a bad coach either. But I at least want to see if he can grow with the young team over the next year or 2 before I start saying he ain't the guy to get them to the next level. Right now, I love that he has gotten a Cavs team to buy in, play hard, finish games, and actually entertain me for the first time in 4 years.

Great measured assessment of JBB

I only challenge the X/O part of your assessment.

Even as we started seeing full defensive/hustle/effort buy in, I still had concerns over a functioning offense. I believe the shooting numbers are very much indicators of a lack thereof and what we are seeing is Lionel Hollins Grit and Grind or Dwayne Casey Scrappy Raptor defense first, second and third. Mobley, Rubio and Garland patched alot of the offensive ineptitude but when good defensive teams lock in, there is no doubt in my mind that our guys are on an island alone without coaching on offense.

I don't think relying on individual offensive creation is a recipe for sustained success and I believe that as we start seeing success as a result of the grit and grind/scrappy raptor focus on defense and effort first, we REALLY need JBB and staff to balance their focus so they dont have to go the way of Mark Jackson leading to Kerr, Casey leading to Nurse or Hollins ceding to Joerger in order to take the team to the next step.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Great measured assessment of JBB

I only challenge the X/O part of your assessment.

Even as we started seeing full defensive/hustle/effort buy in, I still had concerns over a functioning offense. I believe the shooting numbers are very much indicators of a lack thereof and what we are seeing is Lionel Hollins Grit and Grind or Dwayne Casey Scrappy Raptor defense first, second and third. Mobley, Rubio and Garland patched alot of the offensive ineptitude but when good defensive teams lock in, there is no doubt in my mind that our guys are on an island alone without coaching on offense.

I don't think relying on individual offensive creation is a recipe for sustained success and I believe that as we start seeing success as a result of the grit and grind/scrappy raptor focus on defense and effort first, we REALLY need JBB and staff to balance their focus so they dont have to go the way of Mark Jackson leading to Kerr, Casey leading to Nurse or Hollins ceding to Joerger in order to take the team to the next step.

He is the exact kind of coach I want to hire a strictly "offensive coordinator" assistant coach and have that coach handle almost all of that aspect, minus the final say since that obviously comes down to the head coach. I just can't see myself open to moving off a guy the group likes and plays hard for, especially when the core of this group is still so damn young and inexperienced.

But man, I can go find example after example from their first 10 games of just good offense, good actions involving the bigs that garners a lot of attention, getting teams to collapse into the paint, and a kick out to a wide open look at 3 that just wasn't being hit. The offense was generating exactly what you want in a modern day offense; easy looks at the basket and wide open looks at 3. Only guys not floating around 80% to 90% of their shots at the rim or behind the arc are your 3 primary ball handlers in Garland, Rubio, and Sexton and your unicorn big in Mobley. Guys just have to start making 3s off ball though.

Doesn't matter what they do or how nice their system looks on the screen, if Sexton, Love, Markk all keep shooting well below their career averages from 3 when they come back this team isn't going to run teams off the floor offensively.