• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #16 | Cavs @ Nets | Nov. 17, 2021

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Good call Wham. This might be the first time I'm seeing a Okoro/Smart comparison. I think I've been so locked in on him being on a Iggy/Butler trajectory that I didn't really account for the smaller measurements/reach and the stronger build after this offseason that makes him even more Smart.

Here are Smart's career numbers:

View attachment 7077

And Okoro's so far:

View attachment 7078

How do they compare? It's early but the big statistical difference here is Smart has always been willing to shoot about 2 more 3PA per game and averaged about 3 more assists per game. His first two years were Brad Stevens 1st winning seasons where he backed up Rondo as primary PG when he came on the floor and the next year he backed up Isaiah Thomas before they moved him to SG when they drafted Terry Rozier for his 3rd yr.

Brad Stevens was known both at Butler and at this level for Box Sets (quick hitters requiring crisp offensive execution and shots taken early in shot clock as soon as offensive players are open/have a good look...very little dribbling) and Pace and Space transition off defense, so not a lot of high PNR or much isolation action at all, for context of what was being asked of him when he came on the floor in the first few years as they started making playoff runs with Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and then Al Horford for that last year when Isaiah broke his hip.

He has a long way to go to to be a taller Smart. We are yet to see the sophomore year leap. I still believe he has it in him to prove that he belongs to the NBA and he is a legit starter, but he will have to improve in a lot of things.

In hindsight, he wasn't a #5 worthy pick (here is my "concession speech" after the draft - I had thought the Cavs would draft either Avdija or Haliburton: https://realcavsfans.com/index.php?threads/2020-nba-draft.49735/post-3439953). But 2020 draft class wasn't particularly stellar!

He has the mechanics correct. I hope he develops a reliable long-distance shot.
 
Last edited:
Good call Wham. This might be the first time I'm seeing a Okoro/Smart comparison. I think I've been so locked in on him being on a Iggy/Butler trajectory that I didn't really account for the smaller measurements/reach and the stronger build after this offseason that makes him even more Smart.

Here are Smart's career numbers:

View attachment 7077

And Okoro's so far:

View attachment 7078

How do they compare? It's early but the big statistical difference here is Smart has always been willing to shoot about 2 more 3PA per game and averaged about 3 more assists per game. His first two years were Brad Stevens 1st winning seasons where he backed up Rondo as primary PG when he came on the floor and the next year he backed up Isaiah Thomas before they moved him to SG when they drafted Terry Rozier for his 3rd yr.

Brad Stevens was known both at Butler and at this level for Box Sets (quick hitters requiring crisp offensive execution and shots taken early in shot clock as soon as offensive players are open/have a good look...very little dribbling) and Pace and Space transition off defense, so not a lot of high PNR or much isolation action at all, for context of what was being asked of him when he came on the floor in the first few years as they started making playoff runs with Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and then Al Horford for that last year when Isaiah broke his hip.

Think an important thing to look at is the difference in experience when comparing the 2 to this point too.

Smart was a young 2 year college guy, Okoro an older 1 and done college guy. That 2nd college season Smart had where he was undoubtedly Okie State's best player went a long way in developing the shot spread and aggressiveness he still shows in the NBA today.

I would love to aim for a different comp though. I think where this team is heading it absolutely needs Okoro to develop his 3 point shooting to a respectable level. Having that to play off Garland and Mobley, on top of what that would free up for his slashing game when the ball is inevitably in Mobley's hands more, just seems so important.

Watching these games the past 2 years it's pretty apparent that Okoro is a heady off ball player, I am sure that is a product of playing with Sharife Cooper so much while he was growing up and learning to play. On a lot of their set plays he understands where to relocate to, when to flash, when to crash the lane, takes advantage when his guy ball watches, etc. And when he is given the ball in an advantageous spot 9/10 times he slashes into the paint either for a shot at the rim, foul, or drive and kick.

Problem is because he can't shoot that stuff doesn't matter much because guys aren't respecting him. I feel like he is a guy that once his 3 pointers start falling the rest of his game will just fall into place. For all of people's "he's just a 6'5 guy who isn't a great athlete" talk he has a great 1st step that lets him get by guys quickly when he is treated as a threat to shoot and he has shown he is a willing drive and kick guy. He's shown that over the course of his 76 games as a pro too.

So much of what we are seeing with Okoro is making me ask "what if" when it comes to Covid and the limitations to coaching staffs and team facilities during his 1st season he faced. Sure that set him back a bit, not getting the typical full NBA experience, on top of what happened during the college season/end of the college season. Might help explain why that draft class as a whole has been pretty bad to this point too.
 
Last edited:
I'm not advocating throwing games or coaching down.

I think where you and I differ on this, is if we really felt this game was winnable (it wasn't) on the backs of Garland/Rubio high pick n rolls against one of the best teams in the East and what the value that would bring to us in "learning to win" or establishing a winning culture with our core moving forward (none, just like the Sexton iso BK wins last year, weren't sustainable nor inclusive to contract chasing Drummond or burgeoning playmaker Garland because 3 out of 5 of our core is inactive tonight and one of that core is playing like he's lost).

To me, unlocking Okoro as a confident slashing guard who can play-make for others as the third offensive guy after Garland and Mobley with the starters, is the wildcard for raising our ceiling this year.

I always hated LeBron's passive aggressive bullshit, but here is where I ultimately respect LeBron and the way he did what he did in playing the macro/long-game throughout a NBA season for the 15 & 16 playoff runs that led to our first title and probably more had Durant not undermined it all.

Let's use Brons first season back where he had to fight the Kyrie vs Dion imbalance and Blatt's equal opportunity Princeton offense to break those guards bad habits if they were going to contribute come playoff time, for example:

He knew he needed to weed out the bad habits and over-inflated self confidence in Kyrie and/or Dion in that early 2014 return season if he wanted a long playoff run. He tried for weeks to bring to their attention that pounding the rock and breaking the half court ball movement to iso might win you meaningless games in the winter with Kyrie and Dion iso-ing to 20 pt scoring nights with no assists and low efficiency in hard fought wins against inferior teams, but he knew better that putting them in position to sink or swim having to play the game in a way that led to contributing to team ball in the playoffs, was more important... As much as it would enable the team to win easier against inferior teams and establish playoff winning habits.

You could say he sacrificed a few games in December of 14. I remember them like it was yesterday (specifically the Jazz-no assists for Kyrie game)

We lost games we shouldn't have loss before he took a few weeks off, and then he returned once we traded Dion and put Shumpert and JR next to Kyrie to play defense and keep the ball moving to find open shots (shump couldn't hit them but JR could so he eventually started).

The parallel I'm drawing here to Okoro's development is, if Bron were here now, he would recognize (without the pressure of winning each night for job security that JBB and Koby are probably under) that Okoro sinking or swimming as a playmaker from the wing instead of settling as a 3D hot potato 4th/5th option on the floor, is the difference between making the playoffs and really having a chance to win against the top 3-4 teams in the East if we are fully healthy. Either that or he'd throw a bitch fit until we traded Okoro for Kent Bazemore or some vet with a much lower ceiling who could help him won now, but I digress.

Okoro is the key. Not Rubio and Garland PNRs.

It's not Garland getting even more assertive and scoring 40, or Mobley being even more efficient or just getting healthy... It's Okoro asserting himself on offense and becoming a threat to balance his above average perimeter defense and freeing up Sexton to return as a unleashed bench scorer like Clarkson.

Letting Kyrie score 30+ with no assists in a loss to the Jazz in a early December 14 was the equivalent of tweaking your lineup so that Okoro is the secondary ball handler tonight or tomorrow who must swim so the team can win while depleted. Doesn't mean we're conceding these games if Okoro HAS to assert himself so he doesn't let his brothers down.

Blatt wanted that win so he called Kys number all night. Kyrie wanted that win that night too so he kept shooting. Only one guy was playing chess that night... Bron.

LeBron wanted the kid to understand that using his iso talent to create easier shots for the other 4 guys would make the difference when they really needed that from him... 5 assists in Game 5 of a 2-2 East semis against Chicago later that year. And that was coming off a stinker Kyrie played against Chicago in game 4. He would have been iso-gunning had he won the Utah game with no assists and believed he was solely capable of winning games like Kobe each night.

Back to today... We weren't winning any of these 4 games (2x nets, warriors or last one against suns) with this depleted roster unless Okoro gave us March of '21 32 PT 3-4 3pt 9-9 ft Suns game Okoro from last year.

No over reliance on Rubio, Garland or Love with Ed Davis playing 25 mins was going to change that this week so let's do what's healthiest for this team this year and get Okoro back in the driver seat now before Lauri and Allen come back and require touches to get going again, and then Mobley makes it possible for him to disappear as a unreliable offensive player again for the rest of the season.

End rant.
30425FF2-22CC-4B3D-93C1-DC5F9D87E81E.gif
 
@BimboColesHair
@Vipra

Good call on both parts. Sharife Cooper IS a prototypical floor general and playmaking crutch that didnt require Okoro to be that at the high school level, Good call Bimbo

And Marcus Smart WAS the primary offensive player and point guard for both of his years at OKState, Vipra (remember that game where he went into the crowd ready to fight at the beginning of Big 12 play? He was a DOG!) Okoro wasnt that at Auburn but Bruce Pearl has always been a offensive move ball/move bodies and lets just work our asses off on defense and get in transition coach. He's eerily similar to what Brad Stevens did with Smart in Boston. But we don't do that here
 
Great effort. If we had allen, mobley and Lauri we win this game. period. Will not even bring Sexton up.
Nets are supposed to be one of the beasts in the East. We will this game with 2-3 of our injured playing.
Kind of scary
It was a great effort, but if the Nets had Irving and Joe Harris to go along with Harden and Durant it wouldn't matter who we put on the floor.
 
@BimboColesHair
@Vipra

Good call on both parts. Sharife Cooper IS a prototypical floor general and playmaking crutch that didnt require Okoro to be that at the high school level, Good call Bimbo

And Marcus Smart WAS the primary offensive player and point guard for both of his years at OKState, Vipra (remember that game where he went into the crowd ready to fight at the beginning of Big 12 play? He was a DOG!) Okoro wasnt that at Auburn but Bruce Pearl has always been a offensive move ball/move bodies and lets just work our asses off on defense and get in transition coach. He's eerily similar to what Brad Stevens did with Smart in Boston. But we don't do that here
I want to know your trajectory for Okoro. His one calling card, defense, is extremely overrated as I watch him make stupid fouls and never be able to fight through a screen. If he's not cutting for a dunk, he's absolutely useless. God forbid there be a defender when he tries to cut, or it's going to be an ugly missed layup.

I'm all for wanting to put him in a position to succeed and let him build from that, but what is that position? What does he do on the court that any replacement level player couldn't? I certainly can't find it. His "strengths" are all overrated, and everything else he does isn't even G League level quality. He might even be a worse player than Denzel Valentine, and that's fucking saying something.
 
Not sure I see the Marcus Smart comparisons with Okoro. Smart was a PG at Oklahoma State. Okoro was a wing in college and obviously the better athlete coming out of Auburn. Smart was by far the better playmaker w/ decent creativity and vision coming out of college. He was the on court leader for that Cowboys team. Based on their body types I can see some similarity there.

Regardless it's very obvious Okoro is pressing and seems to be lacking confidence. I saw the same thing in summer league with his constant deferring. You can point to that great game he had in March but the Charge's own Justin James also had a 31 point game back in March for the Kings.
 
Not sure I see the Marcus Smart comparisons with Okoro. Smart was a PG at Oklahoma State. Okoro was a wing in college and obviously the better athlete coming out of Auburn. Smart was by far the better playmaker w/ decent creativity and vision coming out of college. He was the on court leader for that Cowboys team. Based on their body types I can see some similarity there.

Regardless it's very obvious Okoro is pressing and seems to be lacking confidence. I saw the same thing in summer league with his constant deferring. You can point to that great game he had in March but the Charge's own Justin James also had a 31 point game back in March for the Kings.

Had one again yesterday too. I think he had 4 or 5 at halftime so as the Mad Ants adjusted their defense to take Kyle Guy out of his zone, James came to life and was near unstoppable against Justin Anderson.

I like him a whole hell of a lot more than Broderick Stevens, Denzel Valentine or Lamar
 
I want to know your trajectory for Okoro. His one calling card, defense, is extremely overrated as I watch him make stupid fouls and never be able to fight through a screen. If he's not cutting for a dunk, he's absolutely useless. God forbid there be a defender when he tries to cut, or it's going to be an ugly missed layup.

I'm all for wanting to put him in a position to succeed and let him build from that, but what is that position? What does he do on the court that any replacement level player couldn't? I certainly can't find it. His "strengths" are all overrated, and everything else he does isn't even G League level quality. He might even be a worse player than Denzel Valentine, and that's fucking saying something.

This is part of the reason I wouldn't mind seeing him for a few weeks with the Charge.

He's in a rut for sure and it's affecting everything. He let James Harden blow by him and turn corners last night a few times where last year and even Washington game night Okoro wasn't allowing that to happen.

I believe his defense is compromised by his offensive lack of output.

I watched Lou Dort lead the Thunder in scoring in a win over the Rockets late last night and maybe it was my Angels Envy Rye talking but I swear he looks and plays just like Okoro did at Auburn. Okoro looked like he was going to bring what Dort is bringing now as his floor and then we could grow/mold him from there.

What did Dort do with a month in the G League?

19.5 ppg, 5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 6 fta pg, 5 3pa pg (33% so not like he set world on fire) in 20 games

I would be ecstatic if Okoro gave me those numbers down there and let that confidence building translate back up here by mid January
 
Had one again yesterday too. I think he had 4 or 5 at halftime so as the Mad Ants adjusted their defense to take Kyle Guy out of his zone, James came to life and was near unstoppable against Justin Anderson.

I like him a whole hell of a lot more than Broderick Stevens, Denzel Valentine or Lamar
Agreed. I can almost bet the house neither Stevens or Valentine will ever score 30 points in a game for the remainder of their careers. I do believe Denzel had a few nice scoring games for the Bulls during his 2nd season but that was long before the injuries piled up. I'd definitely be looking to bring up Kyle and James who have hit their stride w/ the G League. Ben already told us Tacko being on the roster was a favor to his agent. Pangos is another guy doing nothing at the end of the roster. I understand he turned down more guaranteed money in Europe but you can't tell me he's better than Guy.
 
What Dort is today is a good projection of Okoros ceiling.

But we aren't doing the things the Thunder have to get Dort there.
 
Was babysitting my 2 year old and 4 month old nephews and did not watch a second of the game or follow the gamecast.

Should I read the full 35 page thread or is there solid recap post already in the last few pages?
Cavs took 44 Three's made 11 and lost on an incredibly inefficient shooting night
Nets took 32 and made 12 smh
DG needed to take advantage smh
 
It was a great effort, but if the Nets had Irving and Joe Harris to go along with Harden and Durant it wouldn't matter who we put on the floor.
To be fair, if those 4 are on the floor and healthy it would not matter who anyone else in the league put on the floor. No one is beating the Nets at full strength in a 7 game series.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-13: "Backup Bash Brothers"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top