Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #18 | Nets @ Cavs | Nov. 22, 2022

[CleveRocks]

You close games with D.. if Mobley plays this game we win..

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Mobley is the cavs defense. Has nothing to do with the coach or anything else. Cavs have no identity without him.

A rookie.

 

[Rich]

How do you have that as a better season statistically?

Worse in FG%, 3P%, TS%, FT%

Sightly better A/TO ratio, better rebounding, and 2 more FT per game.

Scoring more because he's taking 3 more shots per game, but at best similar seasons, Certainly not better.

Well he's rebounding a helluva a lot more and he gets to the FT line twice as much as Garland, helping to make up for the FG%.

But Garalnd grabs 2 boards a game and Anthony is getting almost 7. That's a big damn difference.



But w/e. Cole Anthony and Darius Garland are having equal seasons.

Is that something makes you confident or not?

I'm just curious what people are projecting Garland to be. Because right now he's absolutely, 100%, a league average starting PG and is extremely close to the player he was last year.

I'm really not trying to shit on Garland. I actually feel like he's been better this year. I Feel like he's been more assertive and is playing a better brand of ball.


But while it's nice to feel that way, that's not really backed up statistically.


Doesn't mean that he can't improve.


But this started because I said I'd be absolutely ok with Koby making a homerun swing and building around Mobley and Allen, which means that yes, Garland is on the table in that scenario. And someone responded that Garland is also a part of the core.


But why?

 

[Expensive Jet]

Was at the game tonight. I counted 15 points for Brooklyn on awful calls or immediately after they were called. Shit is getting annoying.

 

[MirORich]

Our schedule is actually hilarious. These are the teams with the 7 best records in the NBA:

MIA, WAS, UTA, CHI, BKN, PHX, GS

The Cavs are in the midst of a run where they play those teams 8 times in 11 games. The other three games include MIL, whose record is only mediocre due to some games their big 3 missed but now all three are back and DAL, who is 9-7 but has Luka who is always a best.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

He's actually not. He's like right on the money average.

82nd percentile in EPM.
66th percentile in RAPTOR.
73rd percentile in BPM.
On-Off is pretty kind to him with a +5.5 and will only be higher after today's game being +13 in a 5 point loss.
18.3 ppg and 6.8 apg while shooting on +1.4% TS relative to league average.
Great advanced playmaking metrics.
Responsible for a big offensive load on a 9-9 team that doesn't have much offensive talent, doesn't have great coaching, and has had a lot of injuries.

Even if he's "just" an average starter that's pretty good for a dude who's only 21 years old because it would mean he's better than like 80% of players in the NBA already. When you see tons of All-Star guards either coming into the league around DG's age or taking years before their production actually matched true All-Star level impact in the advanced metrics, it's not out of the question that Garland can do the same considering his development already from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season to where he is now.

Again, if you can say he's already an average starter at his age, I don't know how that makes him not part of his core going forward. Does everyone have to have All-Star impact by 22 or we throw them away and search for the next addition to the team?

 

[MirORich]

Well he's rebounding a helluva a lot more and he gets to the FT line twice as much as Garland, helping to make up for the FG%.

But Garalnd grabs 2 boards a game and Anthony is getting 6. That's a big damn difference.



But w/e. Cole Anthony and Darius Garland are having equal seasons.

Is that something makes you confident or not?

I'm just curious what people are projecting Garland to be. Because right now he's absolutely, 100%, a league average starting PG and is extremely close to the player he was last year.

Im comfortable with where he is at 21 and far more interested in his long term chemistry with Mobley the statistical difference between year two and the first 16 games(for him) of year three. I also don't think Cole Anthony sucks so comparisons to him don't do much for me one way or the other, though again, Garlands shooting numbers and efficiency are far better than Anthony's and the rebounding discrepancy is not something that is going to make me value one PG over another. Size of teammates and scheme can have a lot to do with rebounding numbers. It's nice, but not a critical data point for me when discussing PG play.

I don't know what to do with +/- since it seems to get used by all sides only when it benefits their own argument but the Cavs tonight were +13 in Garlands 39 minutes. Given that number of minutes and his role, I don't think that's just a throw away number

 

[Rich]

82nd percentile in EPM.
66th percentile in RAPTOR.
73rd percentile in BPM.
On-Off is pretty kind to him with a +5.5 and will only be higher after today's game being +13 in a 5 point loss.
18.3 ppg and 6.8 apg while shooting on +1.4% TS relative to league average.
Great advanced playmaking metrics.
Responsible for a big offensive load on a 9-9 team that doesn't have much offensive talent, doesn't have great coaching, and has had a lot of injuries.

Even if he's "just" an average starter that's pretty good for a dude who's only 21 years old because it would mean he's better than like 80% of players in the NBA already. When you see tons of All-Star guards either coming into the league around DG's age or taking years before their production actually matched true All-Star level impact in the advanced metrics, it's not out of the question that Garland can do the same considering his development already from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season to where he is now.

Again, if you can say he's already an average starter at his age, I don't know how that makes him not part of his core going forward. Does everyone have to have All-Star impact by 22 or we throw them away and search for the next addition to the team?

You responded to a post where I said I'd be ok if Koby, with keeping Mobley and Allen in mind, made a homerun swing.

That's not throwing anyone away at all. That's trying to find a legit star player instead of hoping to pick one in the draft.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

You responded to a post where I said I'd be ok if Koby, with keeping Mobley and Allen in mind, made a homerun swing.

That's not throwing anyone away at all. That's trying to find a legit star player instead of hoping to pick one in the draft.

I mean Allen could just as well be traded for a star in a home run swing. I guarantee you the Cavs prioritize DG more than Allen, as they should. All three are the clear core pieces going forward though, and the hope is that we can build thing organically. Obviously we need that stud wing, but that'll be hard to acquire regardless.

 

[Rich]

Im comfortable with where he is at 21 and far more interested in his long term chemistry with Mobley the statistical difference between year two and the first 16 games(for him) of year three. I also don't think Cole Anthony sucks so comparisons to him don't do much for me one way or the other, though again, Garlands shooting numbers and efficiency are far better than Anthony's and the rebounding discrepancy is not something that is going to make me value one PG over another. Size of teammates and scheme can have a lot to do with rebounding numbers. It's nice, but not a critical data point for me when discussing PG play.

I don't know what to do with +/- since it seems to get used by all sides only when it benefits their own argument but the Cavs tonight were +13 in Garlands 39 minutes. Given that number of minutes and his role, I don't think that's just a throw away number

"Far" better?

588 to 551 TS%?

Alright.

I'll take the latter who gets 7 boards a game fwiw and turns it over less and sacrifice a little efficiency to do it.

But...ok. I see people are still kinda high on the Garland train.

I've stayed outta the Garland wars this year because the team was winning and people are still supremely high on the guy and get pretty upset when challenged.

Personally all I'm saying is I wouldn't be upset to cash in on his perceived potential to find a guy who has already realized his.

 

[Randolphkeys]

If the Cavs are Tower City with Mobley on the floor, Ed Davis is the old brownstone from the 1890s out there right now:



I appreciate the effort from ol' reliable, but I want the modern skyline as soon as possible. This Cavs team can still do see damage in the playoffs without Sexton scoring and ozone posting!

 

[Rich]

I mean Allen could just as well be traded for a star in a home run swing. I guarantee you the Cavs prioritize DG more than Allen, as they should. All three are the clear core pieces going forward though, and the hope is that we can build thing organically. Obviously we need that stud wing, but that'll be hard to acquire regardless.

They 100% should not. That's crazy talk.

 

[jhernjh]

Hope Garland is alright, before the hit to the face, he had 22 points and was rolling. If I remember correctly, he had the Cavs up by 10 and was dazzling. He goes out and the team gave up lead in like 3 or 4 minutes. Kid finished with a +13. The Cavs are still missing some important players and let’s not forget, the Nets are no bottom feeders. You gotta be real good to beat them

 

[All4One1ForAll]

They 100% should not. That's crazy talk.

Garland is maybe slightly worse than Allen right now as a player, but has a lot more room to grow. Allen for the most part is who he is as a player at this point imo. He's not anything special as a creator and most likely never will be because he doesn't have great vision, doesn't have the frame for being able to dominate in the paint, lacks outstanding hands or touch, and doesn't have any semblance of an outside shot or handles. And listen, I really like Allen on this team. He's a good finisher in the PnR and when he can exploit smalls switched onto him. And he's a very good but not elite defender. But it's important to realize his limitations. He'll likely always be a guy below All-Star level at his best.

Players in DG's archetype are just inherently more valuable, as well, especially as you get into the playoffs. A quick guard who can operate out of the PnR, pull up on a dime, score on all three levels, and create for others. You need that against set playoff defenses who are gonna scheme out plays like lobs to Allen to a greater degree and will play smaller in order to draw Allen away from the rim to reduce his rim protection and overall impact. Yeah, Darius isn't perfect in those abilities yet, but you can see the progress, not to mention he's being asked to shoulder a burden right now that's not ideal at this point. Going from a legit 0-5th percentile player his rookie year to maybe like 40th percentile his second year to like ~80th now? And you can see how much better he is getting into the teeth of the D, finishing inside, and being willing to launch threes than he has been in the past. Consistency as the game draws on is his main issue, and easing his load for now and letting him grow into that bigger one with time will help. Overall, he's seen pretty exceptional improvement since coming into the league.

 

[LesGrossman]

As i said, a win would have been very surprising. People forget KD is the real MVP who just doesnt get it for "political" reasons. Theres no shame in losing to them, especially not the way it happened.

As good as Garlands numbers are, for my personal taste he is overdribbling without moving much too often. He eats up 14 of the 24 seconds without really rattling the D by penetrating or running some pnr. Gotta work on that, it causes the rest of the team to fall into ball watching hibernate state.