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Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #18 | Nets @ Cavs | Nov. 22, 2022

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Garland is maybe slightly worse than Allen right now as a player, but has a lot more room to grow. Allen for the most part is who he is as a player at this point imo. He's not anything special as a creator and most likely never will be because he doesn't have great vision, doesn't have the frame for being able to dominate in the paint, lacks outstanding hands or touch, and doesn't have any semblance of an outside shot or handles. And listen, I really like Allen on this team. He's a good finisher in the PnR and when he can exploit smalls switched onto him. And he's a very good but not elite defender. But it's important to realize his limitations. He'll likely always be a guy below All-Star level at his best.

Players in DG's archetype are just inherently more valuable, as well, especially as you get into the playoffs. A quick guard who can operate out of the PnR, pull up on a dime, score on all three levels, and create for others. You need that against set playoff defenses who are gonna scheme out plays like lobs to Allen to a greater degree and will play smaller in order to draw Allen away from the rim to reduce his rim protection and overall impact. Yeah, Darius isn't perfect in those abilities yet, but you can see the progress, not to mention he's being asked to shoulder a burden right now that's not ideal at this point. Going from a legit 0-5th percentile player his rookie year to maybe like 40th percentile his second year to like ~80th now? And you can see how much better he is getting into the teeth of the D, finishing inside, and being willing to launch threes than he has been in the past. Consistency as the game draws on is his main issue, and easing his load for now and letting him grow into that bigger one with time will help. Overall, he's seen pretty exceptional improvement since coming into the league.

It's not slight man. Not at all.

one guy makes an impact on the defensive end and one guy is still, quite frankly, an awful defensive player.

Their impact is not close.
 
Anyway, in a world where Jaylen Brown becomes available?

I'm more than willing to include Garland in that deal.

You can build a title contender with Brown/Mobley/Allen. All 25 and under.
 
"Far" better?

588 to 551 TS%?

Alright.

I'll take the latter who gets 7 boards a game fwiw and turns it over less and sacrifice a little efficiency to do it.

But...ok. I see people are still kinda high on the Garland train.

I've stayed outta the Garland wars this year because the team was winning and people are still supremely high on the guy and get pretty upset when challenged.

Personally all I'm saying is I wouldn't be upset to cash in on his perceived potential to find a guy who has already realized his.
But then given your personal assessment of him, how could you possibly then suggest that we will get a difference maker in a trade based around him as the main piece?
 
But then given your personal assessment of him, how could you possibly then suggest that we will get a difference maker in a trade based around him as the main piece?

Because I see how this board thinks of him and I see how all these other forums think of him and I see Team USA coming THIS close to giving him a final roster spot.

75-80% of this board is absolutely sure he's on the verge of stardom.

I can CLEARLY see I'm in the minority on what Garland's potential will be. It's not crazy to assume he has value around the league.

Anyway, Cavs are gonna have to take a risk and either give up a player they believe in or a pick with a lot of potential value. One way or the other, a risk needs to be taken to make a leap.

Maybe that's Garland, maybe that's Allen. But those are the two most tradeable players not named Evan Mobley.

If it's not them, then it'll be something like the Bulls did giving away some very, very valuable picks to bring in Vucevic.
 
It's not slight man. Not at all.

one guy makes an impact on the defensive end and one guy is still, quite frankly, an awful defensive player.

Their impact is not close.
He's a bad defender but he's not so bad that it comes close to taking away his offensive impact. If Garland is like a +3.0 impact offensive player and -1.5 defender, I would say Allen hovers around +0.0 offense/+2.0 defense. So about +2 overall for Allen and +1.5 for Garland. Allen may be very productive on offense in the points and efficiency departments, and he provides vertical spacing with the lob threat, but he's not a self-creator, he doesn't space the floor with shooting, he's a below average passer, and he's a poor screener. He's obviously very reliant on others to get the offense going and is more of a tool than an engine on that end. Those traits he lacks limit his offensive impact, and if Garland missed time, you would really start to see the Cavs' offense completely tank. If you thought we've been struggling to score lately, just wait until that happens. We actually got a glimpse of it when Garland missed time with the head injury today, scoring like one field goal in a huge stretch of time. And Allen is actually fortunate we're a rare team with one of the best passers in NBA history at the backup PG spot, who can help set Allen up when Garland is off the floor, which actually helps Allen's offensive impact and hurts Garland's because models aren't being fed data with Allen on the court but no Rubio or DG. Saying their impact isn't close is insane. We're talking about an 82nd-84th percentile-level player in Allen versus like a 78th-80th percentile level player in Garland.
 
Because I see how this board thinks of him and I see how all these other forums think of him and I see Team USA coming THIS close to giving him a final roster spot.

75-80% of this board is absolutely sure he's on the verge of stardom.

I can CLEARLY see I'm in the minority on what Garland's potential will be. It's not crazy to assume he has value around the league.
Fair enough. I am not a "can't trade Garland no matter what" guy.

I just have pretty specific type and age of player I'd be willing to trade him for. And the list it pretty short, based more on the profile Im looking for rather than anything to do with Garland. And that short list of guys also have to be on board with staying in Cleveland long term.

My preference is to get a much longer look at Garland, Mobley, and Allen together while continuing to add picks(regardless of what spot in the draft) or trying to trade other parts of the roster + a pick and pick swap package from a SG or SF who fit really well with Mobley.
 
Fair enough. I am not a "can't trade Garland no matter what" guy.

I just have pretty specific type and age of player I'd be willing to trade him for. And the list it pretty short, based more on the profile Im looking for rather than anything to do with Garland. And that short list of guys also have to be on board with staying in Cleveland long term.

My preference is to get a much longer look at Garland, Mobley, and Allen together while continuing to add picks(regardless of what spot in the draft) or trying to trade other parts of the roster + a pick and pick swap package from a SG or SF who fit really well with Mobley.

It's the modern NBA.

Long looks are a thing of the past.

You either give a guy with potential a ton of money or someone else will.

Then it's cross your fingers time and hope he pans out.

Very worried about that scenario unfolding here.

The cash-in time is before we pay Garland imo.

Is it a risk? Absolutely. Could turn into a consistent top 7 PG.

Also, could just been Dennis Schroeder/Ricky Rubio level player his whole career and those aren't terribly hard to find out there.
 
If the Cavs are Tower City with Mobley on the floor, Ed Davis is the old brownstone from the 1890s out there right now:

View attachment 7154

I appreciate the effort from ol' reliable, but I want the modern skyline as soon as possible. This Cavs team can still do see damage in the playoffs without Sexton scoring and ozone posting!

Well, that ol' reliable is a fucking godsend when you are freezing your nuts off walking through downtown and can dip right in there to cut through into Key Tower and save yourself an extra 25 steps in the cold.

The real problem with this team is Free Stamp Pangos doing absolutely nothing on the bench and our complete lack of anything worthwhile on the waterfront / wings.
 
It's the modern NBA.

Long looks are a thing of the past.

You either give a guy with potential a ton of money or someone else will.

Then it's cross your fingers time and hope he pans out.

Very worried about that scenario unfolding here.

The cash-in time is before we pay Garland imo.

Is it a risk? Absolutely. Could turn into a consistent top 7 PG.

Also, could just been Dennis Schroeder/Ricky Rubio level player his whole career and those aren't terribly hard to find out there.
I said a long look at Garland, Mobley, and Allen together. I did not say 4-5 years together before making decisions.

But I did have more than 12 games in mind. Or is that too long?
 
It's the modern NBA.

Long looks are a thing of the past.

You either give a guy with potential a ton of money or someone else will.

Then it's cross your fingers time and hope he pans out.

Very worried about that scenario unfolding here.

The cash-in time is before we pay Garland imo.

Is it a risk? Absolutely. Could turn into a consistent top 7 PG.

Also, could just been Dennis Schroeder/Ricky Rubio level player his whole career and those aren't terribly hard to find out there.
Garland is a better shooter from 3 than Shrooooooter or Rubio. He’s also younger and still learning. Let’s see how this season pans out and then it might be an easier decision.
 
Anyway, in a world where Jaylen Brown becomes available?

I'm more than willing to include Garland in that deal.

You can build a title contender with Brown/Mobley/Allen. All 25 and under.
Hypothetically speaking, what do you think it would take to get Brown? Who would be your trade targets to put around Frobley?
 
I said a long look at Garland, Mobley, and Allen together. I did not say 4-5 years together before making decisions.

But I did have more than 12 games in mind. Or is that too long?

Set goals for Garland.

If he looks exactly like he's looked so far. Like let's say his number stay identical across the board, for the rest of the season, is that good enough or not?


I'll tell you what I personally want from Garland.

I want the TOs down. 4 per 36 is too much.

The Assist to TO ratio is below 2 to 1. He's never been above a 2 to 1 ratio. I wanna see him pushing 2.3 to 2.5 by season's end.

I think, due to his size and physical limitations, he HAS to become an elite level playmaker to cover up some of the other things. Defense, lack of FTs, primarily.
 
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I thought we played well and it was good to see both Lauri and Allen back. Wade pretty good defense against Durant again. Garland was great until he got slammed with the elbow. After that he couldn’t find Patty and his shots weren’t falling. Okoro made some 3s for once. Lauri had some good shots too.

JB should have challenged the Rubio offensive foul. But these refs were terrible especially the lady.

But one thing I don’t like about JB is he doesn’t say much offensively on how we can get a better shot. The focus is too much on the defensive side on the floor during timeouts and emphasizes that we need to play defense to run them down. Steve Nash instead has Harden up on the top and Aldridge on the right side giving Harden to drive. If a help person helps, Harden passes to Aldridge easily. That happened at least 5 times today. 3rd quarter is where we became too stagnant, no ball movement, no one moving. We really need direction offensively with back door cuts, we got guys who can pass the ball but we need more creativity and help our guys to utilize their skills. We kind of do miss Sexton out there to create offensively when we need a score big time but we need to run plays to provide option on the perimeter or back door or use double pick off the ball.

Anyways great effort again. I hope it keeps continuing.
 
Set goals for Garland.

If he looks exactly like he's looked so far. Like let's say his number stay identical across the board, for the rest of the season, is that good enough or not?
I'll enjoy and observe the progression throughout the season, especial once Mobley is back(though that is not an excuse or qualifier)

Then in the offseason, yes, decisions have to be made.

Extend? If so, how much? Trade? Don't extend and let him play year 4 and then hit RFA, giving us a two year window to evaluate him and Mobley together? Lots of options but I'm not in a rush to reach a conclusion in November/December
 

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