• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Game Thread | Knicks playoff series Game #5 | Knicks @ Cavs | April 26, 2023 | 7:00 NBA TV

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Wham with the Right Hand

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
9,556
Reaction score
27,312
Points
135
Game 5 in Cleveland and it’s do-or-die for the Cavaliers as a loss ends their season. A win sets up another game in New York on Friday night. In that case it will be the first time in five years that the Cavaliers, Guardians, and Browns will be “in action” on the same night (the Browns will be drafting).

The Cavs have one more chance to figure out how to paper over the vulnerabilities the Knicks have been exploiting and live to fight another day. The Cavs will be trying to replicate Game 2 where they buried the Knicks by 27 points on the Cavs’ home floor.

In that game the Cavs won the rebounding battle 43-36 and shot 42.4% on 3’s. It was the only game where their three primary scorers (Garland, Mitchell, LeVert) all had solid offensive games. Garland had 32 points with 7 assists, Mitchell had 17 points and 13 assists, and LeVert had 24 points. Allen and Mobley had 10 and 13 rebounds, respectively.

In order for the Cavs to win they probably need to match the Knicks in rebounding and 3-point percentage while Mitchell, Garland, and LeVert are productive offensively.

In Game 1 LeVert was a no-show with 3 points and the Cavs were outscored by 14 points in his 18 minutes. Mitchell and Garland combined for 55 points but it wasn’t enough. The Cavs lost by four points. Just a normal game by LeVert, say, 10 points, would have been enough to win.

In Game 3 it was Garland who crashed and burned, going 4-for-21 from the field and the Cavs lost by 20. In Game 4 it was Mitchell’s turn to bomb, with 11 points and 6 turnovers. The Cavs lost by 9. Just a normal 20-point game with 2 turnovers by Mitchell would have given the Cavs a win on the road.

Bottom line is all three have to play well. Not great, just well. Even in Game 2 when they combined for 83 points they didn’t need to play that great - the Cavs won by 27.

Beyound just the primary scorers, the Cavs simply need to shoot better.

In Game 4 Cleveland went 15 of 38 with the closest defender more than 4 feet away. They went 6 of 22 on 3-pointers with the closest defender more than 4 feet away (from NBA.com).

They can’t win shooting 27% on uncontested 3’s. The Knicks allowed the fewest points in the paint of any team this season. They talked about putting a “wall of bodies” in front of Mitchell and preventing him from driving. LeVert said they overplay the paint, daring opponents to beat them from outside.

The only game the Cavs won they shot 42.4% on 3’s. The only game they won during the regular season they shot 47%. That’s what they need to beat the Knicks. They aren’t going to beat them dribbling into a team meeting in the paint and trying to score at the rim against Robinson and Hartenstein. Take the ball into the paint, suck in the defense, then kick it out for an open 3. But they have to make them. Just making 10 of 22 uncontested 3’s on Sunday would have given them 12 more points in a 9-point loss.

You got to put the ball in the basket. We’ve got to do a better job of creating opportunities for each other, and when we get opportunities, we got to take advantage of them. - JBB

In 28:35 of the series, [Josh] Hart has held Mitchell to 31 points on 13 of 32 from the field. That includes 2 of 12 from 3-point range. - Robert Fenbers


Mitchell needs to figure out how he can score on Hart, or draw Hart to the sideline and pass the ball to whoever Brunson is guarding. The Cavs need to attack Brunson relentlessly as they did so successfully starting the 3rd quarter on Sunday. Garland, Mitchell, and LeVert can all take him one-on-one, forcing Robinson to help and opening up lobs to the rim or kick-outs to the corner.

The game the Cavs won Donovan Mitchell had more assists (13) than shot attempts (11). He created scoring opportunities for his teammates and punished the Knicks for overplaying him after he scored 38 in Game 1. The Cavs need that balanced scoring again tonight.

The other massive problem besides scoring has been defensive rebounding. Ashley Bastock pointed out that in the first half of Game 4 the Knicks scored 21 of their 54 points off Cavs’ turnovers or on second chances after offensive rebounds.

Scoring 21 of 54 points off turnovers and offensive boards is ridiculous. That’s where the game was lost as the Cavs were down by 9 at halftime and lost by 9.

Allen had only four rebounds. The leading Cleveland rebounder was Caris LeVert (9), followed by Evan Mobley (7). - Terry Pluto

Making matters worse, Knicks center Mitchell Robinson had 11 rebounds, as many as Mobley and Allen combined, in only 27 minutes. - Tim Biles

Down the stretch of the game the Knicks once again hit Cleveland over the head with their physicality, allowing New York to pull away. They outrebounded the Cavs 13-6 over the final 12 minutes, and scored seven second-chance points off of four offensive rebounds during that time. - Ashley Bastock

“That’s the ‘it,’” coach J.B. Bickerstaff said when asked about the offensive rebounds they relinquished. “And we keep talking about it, we keep talking about it, we keep talking about it….in these three games we haven’t learned quickly enough and they’ve made us pay.


The good news is that with just an ordinary, not even above average, game from LeVert in Game 1 and Mitchell in Game 4 the Cavs would be up 3-1, even WITH the awful defensive rebounding. The Cavs need all three of their primary scorers to play well in order to win. Two out of three ain’t bad says Meat Loaf, but it won’t beat the Knicks.

They also need to play with more urgency. The announcers on Sunday mentioned at least twice that the Cavs were getting “outworked”.

And the most troubling aspect of the loss -- and surprising considering that “scrap” has become part of Cleveland’s identity -- was the fact that the Knicks just seemed to be beating the Cavs on hustle plays, getting to every loose ball, chasing down rebounds. The sense of urgency was there for the team with the series lead and not the team that needed it most. - Ashley Bastock

The reasons for Sunday’s loss are numerous. Donovan Mitchell faded. The Cavs shot just 6 of 23 from beyond the arc. They gave up 17 offensive boards and 21 second-chance points. Allen and Mobley failed to match New York’s toughness. There was an incomprehensible lack of urgency despite the Cavs coming off a loss.

There were a few perplexing lineup choices, including ineffective Ricky Rubio playing alongside Okoro. The Cavs got outplayed, outcoached, outhustled and out-executed -- again. They missed more than half of their open shots – again. Their greatest flaws were exposed -- again. - Fedor


So Bickerstaff has two days off and one more chance to figure it out. The solutions are evident.

One, the three primary scorers ALL have to show up. Each of the three losses occurred when one of them was checked out. Two, the Cavs as a team need to make more of their wide open shots, especially from beyond the arc. Three, they need to reduce turnovers and the Knicks’ offensive rebounds. Fourth, they need more urgency.

There was a play in Sunday’s game where the Knicks took an outside shot. Mobley and Hartenstein were battling for rebound position in front of the rim. The shot hit the side of the rim and bounced sideways towards the corner. Hartenstein chased it down and grabbed it in the corner while Mobley hung out in the paint, watching the action. It seemed like the Knicks got every loose ball and long rebound. Maybe that’s because they have a deeper bench and their players are fresher. But it has to change starting tonight.

Cleveland trails 3-1 in this first-round rock fight. History isn’t on its side. Teams facing that postseason deficit are just 13-258 all-time. - Fedor

Based on historical data, we have a 1-in-20 chance to advance. It’s highly unlikely the Cavs beat the Knicks three straight. But I’d like to see the Cavs man up and put together a complete performance tonight and send the series back to New York. For an inexperienced team like the Cavs every playoff game is a valuable learning experience. Not to mention giving the front office a clear view of exactly what needs to change to advance further, although that is probably obvious by now.
 
Last edited:
I made a prediction post like this before Game 2, which we won, then refrained for the two New York games, but will say it again now.

I see no way we lose this game. I’m pretty confident in a win tonight and would be shocked if we don’t send the series back to NY for Game 6.

The main thing the Cavs and JBB need to do is not outsmart themselves. Don’t suddenly try overhelping on Brunson or experiment with new rotation configurations. We’re well past that. Our main problem is on offense, and we need the players to be comfortable enough to execute, and that should be much easier to do at home.
 
I have a bad feeling about this...
 
A poster named "kriegs" posted this video in the series thread right after Game 4. Sam Vecenie of The Athletic takes about 35 minutes to break down Game 4 and his criticism of Bickerstaff is pretty harsh. I thought it was worth discussing here because I want to see if JBB makes any changes tonight.


Vecenie states that the Cavs have a "flawed roster" and that they've been "severely outcoached" in this series. Specifically, he says they have "no wings", which is pretty much what we've been saying all year.

He claims Cedi and Okoro have been exploited defensively by Brunson or a Knicks' big. Interestingly, he calls for Dean Wade to return to the rotation, calling him the only Cavaliers wing who can shoot. He says the Cavs are "OK with having a non-shooter or reluctant shooter" on the floor.

After the Cavs were outscored by 13 points in Wade's seven minutes in Game 1, Bickerstaff has not put him on the floor except for garbage time, so obviously JBB thinks he is of no use. Will he try him once more tonight if the Cavs are behind?

Vecenie has two main criticisms of Bickerstaff (besides not playing Wade); one offensive and one defensive. The defensive criticism is that JBB has Jarrett Allen roaming around and generally following the ball from side to side instead of guarding Robinson or Hartenstein. It's obvious that JBB wants Allen in position to contest the shot after Brunson, Barrett, or whoever attacks the paint beats his man off the dribble. JBB clearly has no confidence that Brunson in particular can be forced to miss the shot without a big man contesting.

The problem is that now Robinson or Hartenstein can easily get great offensive rebounding position with Allen drifting out to contest the shot. That would be fine if Allen blocks the shot, but he had NO blocks in Game 4. He was caught in no man's land where he couldn't block the mid-range jumper or floater but wasn't in position to get the rebound. The result was 17 offensive rebounds for the Knicks.

Vecenie called it a "scheme decision" by JBB that put Allen in a "bad position". At the 8:30 mark of the video he shows what he is talking about. It's clear Allen is just drifting around and not having much of an impact defensively.

The offensive criticism was that the Cavs did not come close to taking advantage of their opportunities to attack Brunson defensively. The Cavs had the most success at the beginning of the second half when Garland attacked Brunson on every possession, either scoring or assisting on 22 points as the Cavs went from 9 down at halftime to take the lead.

But when Cedi came in at the 3:32 mark the Knicks had Brunson guard Cedi and the Cavs only scored 2 points the rest of the quarter. Vecenie said the Cavs should have had Cedi set the screen and force Brunson to switch onto Garland. They didn't. The Cavs went 1-for-6 the rest of the quarter, not counting a half-court heave at the end.

For the future Vecenie doesn't know how the Cavs can go any further with three non-shooters on the floor (Okoro, Mobley, and Allen). He's not sure the Allen/Mobley pairing works in the playoffs and he suggests the Cavs should consider trading Allen sooner rather than later. But those are questions for the off-season.

For tonight and this weekend (if there is a weekend), the question is whether JBB will have Allen play in the low post to better position himself for defensive rebounds and trust LeVert and Okoro to make Brunson miss, or whether he will continue to have Allen playing away from the rim and in position to help on the shooter, leaving the Cavs vulnerable once again to offensive rebounds.

Also, whether the Cavs will attack Brunson relentlessly with Garland, Mitchell, or LeVert, beating him off the dribble and getting into the paint, forcing Robinson to contest and opening up lobs to Allen or Mobley and kickouts to the corner for open 3's.
 
Thanks for the great breakdown as usual! Regardless of the result of tonight, it is not time to go into panic mode. We had a solid showing but the roster has some notable flaws that leave it an 82 game roster, not a 16 game one. With some tweaks and better coaching, we should be back with a fury next year, especially after how the 2nd round goes
 
A poster named "kriegs" posted this video in the series thread right after Game 4. Sam Vecenie of The Athletic takes about 35 minutes to break down Game 4 and his criticism of Bickerstaff is pretty harsh. I thought it was worth discussing here because I want to see if JBB makes any changes tonight.


Vecenie states that the Cavs have a "flawed roster" and that they've been "severely outcoached" in this series. Specifically, he says they have "no wings", which is pretty much what we've been saying all year.

He claims Cedi and Okoro have been exploited defensively by Brunson or a Knicks' big. Interestingly, he calls for Dean Wade to return to the rotation, calling him the only Cavaliers wing who can shoot. He says the Cavs are "OK with having a non-shooter or reluctant shooter" on the floor.

After the Cavs were outscored by 13 points in Wade's seven minutes in Game 1, Bickerstaff has not put him on the floor except for garbage time, so obviously JBB thinks he is of no use. Will he try him once more tonight if the Cavs are behind?

Vecenie has two main criticisms of Bickerstaff (besides not playing Wade); one offensive and one defensive. The defensive criticism is that JBB has Jarrett Allen roaming around and generally following the ball from side to side instead of guarding Robinson or Hartenstein. It's obvious that JBB wants Allen in position to contest the shot after Brunson, Barrett, or whoever attacks the paint beats his man off the dribble. JBB clearly has no confidence that Brunson in particular can be forced to miss the shot without a big man contesting.

The problem is that now Robinson or Hartenstein can easily get great offensive rebounding position with Allen drifting out to contest the shot. That would be fine if Allen blocks the shot, but he had NO blocks in Game 4. He was caught in no man's land where he couldn't block the mid-range jumper or floater but wasn't in position to get the rebound. The result was 17 offensive rebounds for the Knicks.

Vecenie called it a "scheme decision" by JBB that put Allen in a "bad position". At the 8:30 mark of the video he shows what he is talking about. It's clear Allen is just drifting around and not having much of an impact defensively.

The offensive criticism was that the Cavs did not come close to taking advantage of their opportunities to attack Brunson defensively. The Cavs had the most success at the beginning of the second half when Garland attacked Brunson on every possession, either scoring or assisting on 22 points as the Cavs went from 9 down at halftime to take the lead.

But when Cedi came in at the 3:32 mark the Knicks had Brunson guard Cedi and the Cavs only scored 2 points the rest of the quarter. Vecenie said the Cavs should have had Cedi set the screen and force Brunson to switch onto Garland. They didn't. The Cavs went 1-for-6 the rest of the quarter, not counting a half-court heave at the end.

For the future Vecenie doesn't know how the Cavs can go any further with three non-shooters on the floor (Okoro, Mobley, and Allen). He's not sure the Allen/Mobley pairing works in the playoffs and he suggests the Cavs should consider trading Allen sooner rather than later. But those are questions for the off-season.

For tonight and this weekend (if there is a weekend), the question is whether JBB will have Allen play in the low post to better position himself for defensive rebounds and trust LeVert and Okoro to make Brunson miss, or whether he will continue to have Allen playing away from the rim and in position to help on the shooter, leaving the Cavs vulnerable once again to offensive rebounds.

Also, whether the Cavs will attack Brunson relentlessly with Garland, Mitchell, or LeVert, beating him off the dribble and getting into the paint, forcing Robinson to contest and opening up lobs to Allen or Mobley and kickouts to the corner for open 3's.

Thanks for the summary. Those seem like two great critiques. I'll be watching Allen on defense and trying to keep track of Brunson when we have the ball. I did notice that something changed after Garland went off early in the second half but I didn't know what it was exactly.
 
What’s especially obnoxious is that we all saw how effective hunting Brunson was in game 2. It looked like the series would turn on that and the additional physicality.

Then they just…went away from it.

I understand mixing things up. But when you have a strategy that works, there is no reason to stop doing it until your opponent proves they can counter it. The Knicks had not yet countered it. It was a strategy that would have forced the Knicks to fuck around with THEIR BEST PLAYER.
 
If these guys play like pussies who are completely afraid of contact out of the gates at home in an elimination game, I’m turning it off immediately and boycotting them.

They might be able to sustain viewership or morale over the next couple years without me watching, but certainly not both.

Please let me know who to contact to pass this important message along.
 
Last edited:
Last game for the cavs. Mobley, Garland will have to have a good off season. With the lack of assets, internal growth is a must.
 
If these guys play like pussies who are completely unafraid of contact out of the gates at home in an elimination game, I’m turning it off immediately and boycotting them.

They might be able to sustain viewership or morale over the next couple years without me watching, but certainly not both.

Please let me know who to contact to pass this important message along.

Ben Simmons.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-13: "Backup Bash Brothers"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:11: "Clipping Bucks."
Top