Had We Not Made the Trades

[CATS44]

A lot of moaning and groaning every time we have made a significant trade over the last 18 months...and now some of the national media is beginning to pile on, too.

Lets look at where we would be if we hadn't made any of those trades.

We would still have Lindor ( for one more year) and Cookie.

We wouldn't have Bauer, Clevinger, and Kluber. No way would we have picked up Klubers final option. Clevinger won't pitch for anybody this year.

We wouldn't have Reyes, Naylor, Hedges, Quantrill, Logan, and Moss. We wouldn't have Clase. Our farm system would be minus some really good looking pieces.

Our immediate rotation would be better with Cookie, but there would be no depth behind it. Plutko would probably be our sixth starter...with nobody behind him.

We would be even more strapped financially than we are now, having spent money on 1.5 years on Bauer and one on Kluber....plus the money we would have spent on Lindor and Cookie this year. That doesn't count the cost for Clevinger.

Based on what he actually did on the mound, the rotation would have been worse in 2019 with Bauer, and probably much better in 2020. But the offense would have been worse in both years.

Looking at the offense this year, we would have Lindor...but no DH, 2B, or LF...and a ton less money to acquire anybody.

We would see Bradley, Chang, Johnson, and Jones in the lineup full time, and we could also see multiple incarnations of Hanley Ramirez, too.

Our lineup would be something like...

Frankie SS
Mercado LF
JRam 3B
Bradley 1B
Jones DH
Zimmer/Luplow RF
Chang 2B
Berto C
Johnson LF

A solid case could be made our offense will be just as good...even better...than it would had we not made any of these trades. And we have yet to make an addition, which would have been impossible without these trades. If you figure that a normal season requires at least eight SPs, a solid case may be made that the depth we presently have more than offsets the loss of Cookie.

 

[petes999]

My big argument is that they are still playing this 1/2 in (trying to compete) and 1/2 out (trying to add prospects). I get this approach with Bauer as we were trying to make one last playoffs with some hitting in Reyes and Puig. Puig was cheap (and got us Moss I guess due to his misconduct) and Reyes was young and slotted at DH (not not premium either).

Kluber -- just kept him too long as he was our Ace for playoffs .... Wished for a bit more than Clase as DeShields was probably forced upon us.

Clevinger -- I liked the minor league talent but felt lukewarm with Quantrill and Naylor (assuming Hedges was a throw in). I hope Quantrill becomes a solid #3 starter ...

..... Yet, by Clevinger trade, we should have switched to full rebuild and looked for Patino or someone else in place of Quantrill/Naylor. I had already started to say, you got to look at Rule 5 as well and get quality upside versus quantity throw-ins ... hoping to tread-water in WC chase and hope someone work out.

Lindor and Cookie trade was again some near term and long term ... a lot of us are losing hope of being competitive again till 2023 and just want them build for a future where we can have a starting pitchers of

Beiber
Plesac
McK

And who ever we have coming up whether
Quantrill, Allen, Civale, Morgan, Hentges, Cantillo ....

Knowing that the real prize is now, waiting 2-3 years on
Hankins, Espino, Burns, Torres, Vargas, ....

We are a small market team. Great that we have the best record over the last X years in the AL. However, what did that get us other than one near miss. We had 2 near misses during the previous window with the big bashers. There is limited $ and WAR that you develop. Each year you got to know if it is your year or not on how big to bet. This year, with Rosario/Gimenez in the middle and clueless OF, is it wise to spend $10-$15 million to reinvest the savings for 5-8 more wins (and fall 5-10 short of WC?) or wait till 2022/23 and spend $20 million to fill a hole then like OF till our next wave is fully developed and thus can compete for the division and have a shot at WS at that time?

A rotation of Bieber, Patino (vs Quantrill), McK, Plesac, and young Hankins .... watch out+.

 

[CDAV45]

A lot of moaning and groaning every time we have made a significant trade over the last 18 months...and now some of the national media is beginning to pile on, too.

Lets look at where we would be if we hadn't made any of those trades.

We would still have Lindor ( for one more year) and Cookie.

We wouldn't have Bauer, Clevinger, and Kluber. No way would we have picked up Klubers final option. Clevinger won't pitch for anybody this year.

We wouldn't have Reyes, Naylor, Hedges, Quantrill, Logan, and Moss. We wouldn't have Clase. Our farm system would be minus some really good looking pieces.

Our immediate rotation would be better with Cookie, but there would be no depth behind it. Plutko would probably be our sixth starter...with nobody behind him.

We would be even more strapped financially than we are now, having spent money on 1.5 years on Bauer and one on Kluber....plus the money we would have spent on Lindor and Cookie this year. That doesn't count the cost for Clevinger.

Based on what he actually did on the mound, the rotation would have been worse in 2019 with Bauer, and probably much better in 2020. But the offense would have been worse in both years.

Looking at the offense this year, we would have Lindor...but no DH, 2B, or LF...and a ton less money to acquire anybody.

We would see Bradley, Chang, Johnson, and Jones in the lineup full time, and we could also see multiple incarnations of Hanley Ramirez, too.

Our lineup would be something like...

Frankie SS
Mercado LF
JRam 3B
Bradley 1B
Jones DH
Zimmer/Luplow RF
Chang 2B
Berto C
Johnson LF

A solid case could be made our offense will be just as good...even better...than it would had we not made any of these trades. And we have yet to make an addition, which would have been impossible without these trades. If you figure that a normal season requires at least eight SPs, a solid case may be made that the depth we presently have more than offsets the loss of Cookie.

This is not true at all according to my recollection. The prior trades weren't nearly as frowned upon because the returns were better and we gave up a lot less. -Kluber was coming off of injury, was expensive, and we had plenty of SP depth. The only frustration here was that they waited a year too late to trade him. Sound familiar?
-Bauer was coming toward the end of his tenure in Cleveland. They traded him at the right time and got a good return.
-Clevinger brought us a haul and again, we had plenty of SP depth. Actually we added to it with Quantrill and Cantillo as part of the deal.
-We literally got very little to nothing for Carrasco. A top 10-15 SP since 2015 minus the year he was ill and they gave him away.
-Lindor landed us 2 more MIFers. One can replace Lindor's defense or come close to it while the other is a liability at SS. Both put together wouldn't come close to Lindor's offensive production. The 2 prospects are outside of our top 10. The farm system didn't move up any rankings by adding Wolf and Greene.

 

[CATS44]

Man, I dont know where some were, but in both earlier trades there were tons of comments that they were merely quality for quantity trades.

With this trade it isn't merely our two guys for their four guys.

It was our two CONTRACTS for their four contracts. All trades are about contracts as much as they are about players.

If you combine the contracts of every player and prospect we have from these four trades....eight current MLB players and seven prospects...and throw in what we spent on Puig and Deshields, it comes to slightly more than what we would have had to pay Clevinger in arby.

The final result of this recent trade won't be known until this off season comes to an end. Last winter we used some of the Kluber money to bring in Hernandez.

 

[avs2000]

My big argument is that they are still playing this 1/2 in (trying to compete) and 1/2 out (trying to add prospects). I get this approach with Bauer as we were trying to make one last playoffs with some hitting in Reyes and Puig. Puig was cheap (and got us Moss I guess due to his misconduct) and Reyes was young and slotted at DH (not not premium either).

Kluber -- just kept him too long as he was our Ace for playoffs .... Wished for a bit more than Clase as DeShields was probably forced upon us.

Clevinger -- I liked the minor league talent but felt lukewarm with Quantrill and Naylor (assuming Hedges was a throw in). I hope Quantrill becomes a solid #3 starter ...

..... Yet, by Clevinger trade, we should have switched to full rebuild and looked for Patino or someone else in place of Quantrill/Naylor. I had already started to say, you got to look at Rule 5 as well and get quality upside versus quantity throw-ins ... hoping to tread-water in WC chase and hope someone work out.

Lindor and Cookie trade was again some near term and long term ... a lot of us are losing hope of being competitive again till 2023 and just want them build for a future where we can have a starting pitchers of

Beiber
Plesac
McK

And who ever we have coming up whether
Quantrill, Allen, Civale, Morgan, Hentges, Cantillo ....

Knowing that the real prize is now, waiting 2-3 years on
Hankins, Espino, Burns, Torres, Vargas, ....

We are a small market team. Great that we have the best record over the last X years in the AL. However, what did that get us other than one near miss. We had 2 near misses during the previous window with the big bashers. There is limited $ and WAR that you develop. Each year you got to know if it is your year or not on how big to bet. This year, with Rosario/Gimenez in the middle and clueless OF, is it wise to spend $10-$15 million to reinvest the savings for 5-8 more wins (and fall 5-10 short of WC?) or wait till 2022/23 and spend $20 million to fill a hole then like OF till our next wave is fully developed and thus can compete for the division and have a shot at WS at that time?

A rotation of Bieber, Patino (vs Quantrill), McK, Plesac, and young Hankins .... watch out+.

“Best record in AL over last years and a near miss”.
you are right
Not sure how old you are but you should have Been around in the 70-80’s. Lol

the last 25 years have been pretty fun to me

 

[Alabuckeye]

I don't dislike the model that the club has. It has its frustrations, but any understanding of the market/MLB setup manages expectations. They are riding a thin edge with little margin for error, I get it.

I agree, they traded Kluber a year late. But, that thin margin.
I hate that they traded CC and let Carlos go, both great team players and city favorites.....but, that thin margin.

Again, they need to figure out how to develop outfielders closer to how they develop starting pitching. That's been a pox on the club for years now(is Brantley the last OF that developed somewhat thru our system?)......and is a detriment to our development as a team.

Bring on the kids, let's see what they have to offer. ChiSox going all in, let's play spoiler for a while.

 

[CATS44]

I'm not sure we have to play spoiler.

Our ability to target, acquire, and develop pitching not only gives us a decided edge on the mound, it gives us valuable assets to use to acquire the offensive upgrades we need.

The most valuable commodity in baseball is young pitching. We have it in spades. It is something this org under the Dolans has never used to acquire bats.

Perhaps now is the time to do so.

 

[CDAV45]

We have very good SP and seem to be able to pull it from our ass as soon as we need it, but let's not overlook the White Sox pitching. They have Giolito, Cease, Lopez, Kopech, Lynn, and Keuchel. They have a couple of nice young arms as well. The difference between the 2 clubs is Cleveland can develop and Chicago can buy. We can hang with them if we can put together a potent lineup, which currently we lack.

Obviously this organization usually hangs on to young, inexpensive pitching and deals from the Major League depth. Considering this, if Quantrill and Allen can take the next step forward then there is some to deal.

 

[Gson]

The dearth of outfield talent at the ML level & MiLB level comes down to a matter of prioritizing choices. Choices such as:

-4th choice in the 2020 draft (Petey Halpin)
-8th choice in the 2019 draft (Will Brennan)
-7th choice in the 2018 draft (Stevie Kwan)
-1st choice in the 2017 draft (Q-Holmes)
-1st choice in the 2016 draft (Wil Benson)

Over the last five drafts, only Petey Halpin has a chance to contribute at this point. There is a clear "misunderstanding" of what an outfielder looks like at draft time. In the 2016 draft, after Wil Benson was drafted, Alex Kiriloff, Blake Rutherford, Dylan Carlson, Brandon Marsh were selected in the draft.. These are just some examples.. The best way for the tribe to fill their need for outfield talent with immediate or near immediate results is to do as you've indicated.. trade major league talent and probably pitching talent to acquire the OF'ers that are in dire need. At the BTV site.. a three way deal that has the indians receiving Benintendi and Juran would solve a BUNCH of position player talents.. and allow the Indians to remain competitive.. in the near term. Now is reload time..

We'll see..

 

[Alabuckeye]

What would we be giving up for Benintendi and Juran in that scenario?

 

[Gson]

What would we be giving up for Benintendi and Juran in that scenario?

For just Benintendi, there are several posted trade suggestions:

-Logan S Allen, Alexfri Planez and Mitchie Longo..
-Logan T Allen and Jake Bauers
-Moss Vargas and Fermin
-Morris Sanquintin and Moss

Note: these are just the ones than have the Indians as the acquiring team for Beni...

These (there are several more) are the simpler two team deals.. There are also several three team deals. The only one that has the return of Benintendi and Juran (also Downs, Hoese, and Ruiz) has the Indians losing Logan S Allen and Jose Ramirez. The sight's algorithm shows it as a fair deal with only the Dodgers slightly overpaying ($ 600K)..

While sites like that seldom have any bearing in the real world, they do point out and provide insight into information and the quality of the prospects being hoarded all over baseball.. If we can get a few of the right ones, just like we have with pitching prospects.. then we can and will compete more effectively..

So far, that hasn't been the case with the Tribe.. Thoughts?...

 

[CDAV45]

Where do you play Benintendi? If he's playing LF then where does Naylor play? If Naylor plays 1B then where does Bauers or Bradley play? I Bradley is the DH then where does Reyes play? If Reyes plays RF then where does Johnson play? We haven't even mentioned Mercado, Johnson, or Luplow. I'm afraid what we see now is what we're going to see for the 21 season.

 

[Alabuckeye]

The Indians have led the way in a number of areas....including being one of the first to choose extending key young talent to guarantee expense and continuity thru arbitration years. Also, their continuity of vision in the FO as another example.

One could easily say that they MUST find innovative, off normal ways to build a team so as to take advantage of value and stay competitive.

With that said, a point of value definitely is pitching and our abilities there. I would add, we seem to have a broad number of potentially talented shortstops.....finding value in other team's and using ours to garner theirs is something I could support.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Where do you play Benintendi? If he's playing LF then where does Naylor play? If Naylor plays 1B then where does Bauers or Bradley play? I Bradley is the DH then where does Reyes play? If Reyes plays RF then where does Johnson play? We haven't even mentioned Mercado, Johnson, or Luplow. I'm afraid what we see now is what we're going to see for the 21 season.

Unfortunately, our problem is a lack of ML quality OF, not too many. Benentendi would automatically become our best LF, and probably the 2nd best position player on the team. I'm not worried where Bauers and Johnson play. They should be worried, but not me.

 

[Criznit]

Where do you play Benintendi? If he's playing LF then where does Naylor play? If Naylor plays 1B then where does Bauers or Bradley play? I Bradley is the DH then where does Reyes play? If Reyes plays RF then where does Johnson play? We haven't even mentioned Mercado, Johnson, or Luplow. I'm afraid what we see now is what we're going to see for the 21 season.

You make this trade with the Ben-intention of making him your everyday CFer and hope for the best