Here I go again...LBJ vs Jordan GOAT?

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

dhutch307

Rookie
Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Messages
15
Reaction score
85
Points
13
I was listening to Greeney on ESPN RADIO earlier this morning and his question of the day was “If LBJ wins two more titles to get to six does that make him the GOAT over Jordan?”
First off IMHO if championships are the measuring stick then Bill Russell is the GOAT because the man won 11 out of 13 titles and I believe 8 in a row! Secondly as far as LBJ vs MJ....I always go with Mike because of the one thing he had over LBJ. THAT KILLER INSTINCT! On more than one occasion I have heard LBJ say “I went into chill mode during that third quarter”. Anybody who saw Jordan play knows the Man didn’t have a “chill mode”! He came at you all game long 120%! And my last point in MJ vs Russell vs LBJ is this.....MJ won all six of his titles with one team as did Russell with the Celtics! That means MJ and Bill had stay and play through slumps, rebuilds and additions/substractions to win their titles.
LBJ on the hand, had to team hop to three different teams to win four titles to teams that either had the pieces in place or had to add another superstar. So as much as I like LBJ..MJ to me is the GOAT! And again if titles is only measuring stick then it’s Bill.

1. The "MJ has a killer instinct and Lebron doesn't" argument is incredibly unoriginal, lazy, and just flat out false. On essentially every statistic that you could somewhat gauge "clutchness" (4th quarters, last 2 minutes of close games, playoff "potential final shot in 1 score games, playoff elimination games, playoff closeout games) Lebron thrives in every possible category and thats JUST HIS SHOOTING. I don't have a photographic memory, but I promise you I've seen the graphics on all those categories I've listed and Lebron excels across the board, ranking higher than MJ in some. I also despise the fact that Lebron gets ripped for making perfect basketball reads damn near every-time and willingly giving up the ball to open shooters in final shot opportunities. Like he did when he gave it up to give Danny Green, the teams best 3 point shooter, a shot at NBA immortality (Green misses, Kerr makes, Lebron gets roasted, MJ gets applauded). Forgot the player, but you guys probably know, this happened at the very end of the game in one of the finals losses to the Warriors (K Love maybe?). Granted, I'd take MJ over Lebron for 1 single play to win the game, but it's not by much and very end of game situations are a very small subset of overall greatness.

2. Your last point is just as eye rolling to me as the first one. Like Jordan wasn't universally regarded as a great player who couldn't win at the biggest of stage for MANY years UNTIL he got a championship roster around him, headed by arguably the best #2 option in the history of the NBA with his legendary defense and ability to score/affect games without demanding the ball away from Jordan. You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that Jordan, the unworldly competitor that he was, DOESN'T leave Chicago if Pippen didn't come along? As he constantly got squashed by the Pistons and the Celtics for trying to be a one man show. Dude's 100% out the door.

The argument also sucks because you completely discredit the challenges it takes to actually win a title on 3 separate teams with complete roster overhauls. I've just always found it funny that this should be a notch in favor of Jordan when he had the advantages of continuity in their roster/management. Meanwhile, Lebron has to play with the emotional headcase that is Kyrie Irving, and while D Wade is an all time great, he had already passed the peak prime of his career and he's an imperfect fit alongside Lebron. AD is actually the first superstar Lebron has ever played with who complimented his game perfectly. MJ had his perfect running made in Pippen, and the legendary Phil Jax, for all 6 championships.

3. I'll actually give you credit for not being lame enough to use the "Jordan is perfect at 6-0 and Lebron isn't". Another clear illogical conclusion people come to. How Lebron somehow gets discredited for getting further than MJ 4 times. IMO it's Lebron 10, Jordan 6. Also, Lebron is 4-4 in the finals because F KD and the Warriors. Literally impossible.

Btw, I still got MJ in a narrow lead :). I just hate these same damn arguments that are completely baseless. If Lebron wins 2 more its Lebron 12, Jordan 6, and the NBA finals would be a push at 6-6.
 

Ohioplayer00

Situational Stopper
Joined
Nov 13, 2020
Messages
483
Reaction score
323
Points
63
1. The "MJ has a killer instinct and Lebron doesn't" argument is incredibly unoriginal, lazy, and just flat out false. On essentially every statistic that you could somewhat gauge "clutchness" (4th quarters, last 2 minutes of close games, playoff "potential final shot in 1 score games, playoff elimination games, playoff closeout games) Lebron thrives in every possible category and thats JUST HIS SHOOTING. I don't have a photographic memory, but I promise you I've seen the graphics on all those categories I've listed and Lebron excels across the board, ranking higher than MJ in some. I also despise the fact that Lebron gets ripped for making perfect basketball reads damn near every-time and willingly giving up the ball to open shooters in final shot opportunities. Like he did when he gave it up to give Danny Green, the teams best 3 point shooter, a shot at NBA immortality (Green misses, Kerr makes, Lebron gets roasted, MJ gets applauded). Forgot the player, but you guys probably know, this happened at the very end of the game in one of the finals losses to the Warriors (K Love maybe?). Granted, I'd take MJ over Lebron for 1 single play to win the game, but it's not by much and very end of game situations are a very small subset of overall greatness.

2. Your last point is just as eye rolling to me as the first one. Like Jordan wasn't universally regarded as a great player who couldn't win at the biggest of stage for MANY years UNTIL he got a championship roster around him, headed by arguably the best #2 option in the history of the NBA with his legendary defense and ability to score/affect games without demanding the ball away from Jordan. You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that Jordan, the unworldly competitor that he was, DOESN'T leave Chicago if Pippen didn't come along? As he constantly got squashed by the Pistons and the Celtics for trying to be a one man show. Dude's 100% out the door.

The argument also sucks because you completely discredit the challenges it takes to actually win a title on 3 separate teams with complete roster overhauls. I've just always found it funny that this should be a notch in favor of Jordan when he had the advantages of continuity in their roster/management. Meanwhile, Lebron has to play with the emotional headcase that is Kyrie Irving, and while D Wade is an all time great, he had already passed the peak prime of his career and he's an imperfect fit alongside Lebron. AD is actually the first superstar Lebron has ever played with who complimented his game perfectly. MJ had his perfect running made in Pippen, and the legendary Phil Jax, for all 6 championships.

3. I'll actually give you credit for not being lame enough to use the "Jordan is perfect at 6-0 and Lebron isn't". Another clear illogical conclusion people come to. How Lebron somehow gets discredited for getting further than MJ 4 times. IMO it's Lebron 10, Jordan 6. Also, Lebron is 4-4 in the finals because F KD and the Warriors. Literally impossible.

Btw, I still got MJ in a narrow lead :). I just hate these same damn arguments that are completely baseless. If Lebron wins 2 more its Lebron 12, Jordan 6, and the NBA finals would be a push at 6-6.
Well there’s a lot you have said here I agree with but the bottom line is MJ DIDN’T leave the Bulls and even with Pippen his rosters underwent a lot of changes but he stuck it out. And again my only point about the killer instinct thing Jordan didn’t have a “chill mode” like LBJ.....he came hard at you the entire time he was on the floor! And you can’t look at me with a straight face and say LBJ’s moments of “chill modes” didn’t hurt the Cavs in a lot of games that caused the team to fall behind in games! Once again if Finals trips and titles are the measuring stick then Russell is the GOAT
 
Last edited:

Ohioplayer00

Situational Stopper
Joined
Nov 13, 2020
Messages
483
Reaction score
323
Points
63
Admittedly, I was being pretty hyperbolic by claiming Walton had the highest peak. Realistically, Bron, MJ, Kareem and several others had higher peaks. You can make good cases for a few other bigs including Shaq and Hakeem.

I do think his peak is somewhat underrated in that discussion though. He was the only real superstar on those Portland teams and they won a ton of games with him at helm. His best teammate was Mo Lucas during that stretch. Mo is probably comprable to Kevin Love in prestige even if their games aren't similar at all. I think the most telling stat though is that they went 50-10 in 1978, the year after the title, before Walton went down. They went 8-14 down the stretch but still had the best record in the NBA. Admittedly the late 70s were a lean period in talent for the NBA but that is still pretty impressive.
I don’t know Loniel Hollins was a pretty nice piece of that team
 

foucault87

Situational Stopper
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
497
Reaction score
398
Points
63
One more thought on this. While I think the book is still open, I am pretty sure the math will show LeBron as the clear GOAT when he is retired. His stats and advanced metrics are so ridiculous that a bad LeBron year looks like a career year from any other NBA player. The counting stats are already in his favor and soon will be even more ridiculous. He is already the most prolific playoff player ever and the regular season is only a few years behind.
 

RMosack

Rookie
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
20
Reaction score
2
Points
3
This argument has raged on for years, but I think LeBron (douchebag that he may be) won this one on the court a few years back.

Jordan could not have led that 2007 Cavs roster of stiffs to the Finals. Nah, that would have been one his multiple first round playoff losses. Dude was 1-9 in his first 10 playoff games, including two sweeps!

Jordan could not have carried that 2015 Cavs team without both Kyrie and Kevin to 6 games with Golden State. Never. No way. When Jordan's team wasn't favored, he lost, plain and simple. LeBron led BOTH TEAMS in points, boards, assists and steals. That's unbelievable. Should have been MVP even in losing, but the lame media couldn't allow him something on his resume that would top their hero, Jordan.
 
Top