Hot Garbage and Pyrite

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

sportscoach

Snarly's Gaming Rival!!
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
6,720
Reaction score
2,708
Points
113
WOW !! ...the next Kluber !!... (lol)...

Scott Moss worked his way back from a difficult TJ surgery and rehab in 2018/19.. His time in SD was over.. IDK wtf they were doing with him?.. trying to make a power pitcher out of him? Scottie Moss' fastball / cut fastball both spins moves enough while he locates it well enough and has enough fade on a change up to be an effective/valuable LHRP out of the Indians pen. IDK that he'll be starter, but will continue to be stretched out as one going forward. His FB that moves/up in the zone should play up a bit better as an RP, imho..

Thoughts?

Moss did come from the Reds lol Allen came from the Padres

Either way, they planned on Moss being a starter and most likely will keep him there for the time being. Allen, Moss, Hentges, Meija, will all be stretched out to be starters to start the season and so likely will Vargas. Now that being stated, anyone from the left side could see bullpen action since we don't have much depth from that side in 21.

Kluber also needed to find a pitch that made his group of pitches better and he did find that eventually. Plesac, Civale have to develop their off speeds more as well and some analysts said Civale is a pitch away from becoming a legit MLB starter. We have to see how the guys develop and I don't know enough about Moss to say one way or the other, but we have to trust the development team and the FO to get these guys with the right training and the right mix of pitches. It has worked for many years now, so I think I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
2,208
Reaction score
4,088
Points
113
I'm not disagreeing that there are concerns about stamina and depth this season, but I do disagree that in Feb 2019 anybody thought that Plesac and Civale were ready to step in and be immediately successful at the MLB level.

At that point in time both were in AA, and Plesac had only 22 IP there. Civale had only thrown 106.1 IP in 2018, due to some arm problems.

A good argument can be made that Quantrill, Logan, and Moss are far more prepared to step into the rotation now.
Civale started at Akron in 2019. He had a 2.67 ERA in five starts. They moved him up to Columbus and he was even better with a 2.13 in eight starts.

Same thing with Plesac; 0.96 ERA in Akron in six starts, then a 2.73 in four starts in Columbus. The year before he had a 2.45 in Akron.

Both of them had success at both AA and AAA, although in small samples, before coming up. The first guys in line this year don't have that track record other than Moss and his 1.93 in four starts in 2019 in Columbus. It doesn't mean they can't pitch successfully in the majors this year, but I don't see them as having shown the kind of success in the high minors we saw from Zach and Aaron. But maybe we'll see that this spring if there is a minor league season.

Certainly the Indians have a stellar track record for spotting diamonds in the rough in other organizations and bringing their talents to the front once they get their hands on them as Kluber, Bauer, Carrasco, and Clevinger prove. Will they just keep doing that forever?
 

jup

In the Rotation
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
694
Reaction score
851
Points
93
Boy, lots of pitching stuff for a change. :celb (2):

Just had to chuckle thinking back to all the times on "that other forum" (since I am not suppose to mention it by name it seems) some of these same posters were sure the pitching in Cleveland was BECAUSE of Mickey Callaway. Seems time has proved that not only wrong, but dead wrong, although it was heresy to actually say something at the time.

And how does that relate to this thread - be careful where you plant your feet ("the Cleveland pitching factory") because it could be quick sand below.

Many pitchers if not most, get better because they are driven, and the financial rewards are to enticing not to. So most pitchers progress "in spite of coaching", or "along side of it" but rarely because of it. Where Cleveland does a REAL GOOD job is in the patience and preservation department. They move rather slowly with their pitchers, working diligently to keep them healthy and they wait, and wait, and wait. And those pitchers get better on their own.

All the talk of Klubes and his minor league days in the thread. Ever think if someone on the staff had the exact answers for what would make him the pitcher he would become, that it would have taken them all those years to impart him with the wisdom ????

They waited on Carrasco. Then waited and waited and waited some more. And because of various factors he became the pitcher he was up to the leukemia onset. Ever think if they had all the answer they would have waited so long to get him to be the productive pitcher he became ????

Pitchers performed in Cleveland INSPITE of Callaway not because of him. And most of the pitchers Cleveland has produced are the result of the pitcher discovering, not the staff leading them. That is not to say the staff is not helpful and that being patient is not "genius" on their part, because in the case of pitching, many times it is. But that doesn't mean Cleveland has a play book that turns lumps of coal into diamonds either. And sooner or later, the well of pitchers that will make that leap forward runs dry or has some droughts.

Of your horsemen @Gson - I think Civale will do well over the years. He has the correct mindset and directed curiosity that should play well for self development. Plesac is a roll of the dice, but he has the best raw talent left in Cleveland and many times that alone will carry you. Not real sure one way or another on Quantrill as my information there is to thin. And Biebs will cruise along. Most likely with less success than in 2020, but still top of the rotation results. But extraordinary as a staff when they are as inexperienced as they are ????

Remember, Cleveland's genius with their starters is in their patients, and at this point, the pitchers themselves haven't had a lot of time for the self development that is at the heart of Cleveland's program. Expect from the rotation if you want, but do it at your own risk, because they don't have the time under their belt yet. And many of their best teachers (the other pitcher that they learned from mostly by example) are now gone.
 

Gson

In the Rotation
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1,392
Reaction score
646
Points
113
yeah.. the run-ins Mick had with guys over the time he called the corner of carnegie and ontario home were polarizing..

-The idea that Carlos Carrasco was an immature head hunter that couldn't control his emotions
-The constant head butting with Trevor Bauer..

The talent was there and has proven it.. the intent to bend the players & their talent to the Calla-way.. was never going to work.. I was thrilled to see him go to the Mets..

...the lude photo stuff & other behavior crap, aside.
 

CDAV45

Dingers!
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
1,381
Reaction score
853
Points
113
Boy, lots of pitching stuff for a change. :celb (2):

Just had to chuckle thinking back to all the times on "that other forum" (since I am not suppose to mention it by name it seems) some of these same posters were sure the pitching in Cleveland was BECAUSE of Mickey Callaway. Seems time has proved that not only wrong, but dead wrong, although it was heresy to actually say something at the time.

And how does that relate to this thread - be careful where you plant your feet ("the Cleveland pitching factory") because it could be quick sand below.

Many pitchers if not most, get better because they are driven, and the financial rewards are to enticing not to. So most pitchers progress "in spite of coaching", or "along side of it" but rarely because of it. Where Cleveland does a REAL GOOD job is in the patience and preservation department. They move rather slowly with their pitchers, working diligently to keep them healthy and they wait, and wait, and wait. And those pitchers get better on their own.

All the talk of Klubes and his minor league days in the thread. Ever think if someone on the staff had the exact answers for what would make him the pitcher he would become, that it would have taken them all those years to impart him with the wisdom ????

They waited on Carrasco. Then waited and waited and waited some more. And because of various factors he became the pitcher he was up to the leukemia onset. Ever think if they had all the answer they would have waited so long to get him to be the productive pitcher he became ????

Pitchers performed in Cleveland INSPITE of Callaway not because of him. And most of the pitchers Cleveland has produced are the result of the pitcher discovering, not the staff leading them. That is not to say the staff is not helpful and that being patient is not "genius" on their part, because in the case of pitching, many times it is. But that doesn't mean Cleveland has a play book that turns lumps of coal into diamonds either. And sooner or later, the well of pitchers that will make that leap forward runs dry or has some droughts.

Of your horsemen @Gson - I think Civale will do well over the years. He has the correct mindset and directed curiosity that should play well for self development. Plesac is a roll of the dice, but he has the best raw talent left in Cleveland and many times that alone will carry you. Not real sure one way or another on Quantrill as my information there is to thin. And Biebs will cruise along. Most likely with less success than in 2020, but still top of the rotation results. But extraordinary as a staff when they are as inexperienced as they are ????

Remember, Cleveland's genius with their starters is in their patients, and at this point, the pitchers themselves haven't had a lot of time for the self development that is at the heart of Cleveland's program. Expect from the rotation if you want, but do it at your own risk, because they don't have the time under their belt yet. And many of their best teachers (the other pitcher that they learned from mostly by example) are now gone.
Mickey was the pitching coach at a time that they began to see the success they are having up to this point. Clearly he has some "issues" and may be someone I'd rather punch in the face than converse with, but he didn't appear to hurt the staff at the time. The bottom line is this, and I've had this exact conversation with my son. The difference between those with talent that make it and those that don't is the little flame that constantly burns for those that do. You don't have to ask them to go to the batting cage or long toss or take IF practice or shag flies. They are the ones you see hitting off the tee in the backyard with no one else around. They're the ones you see throwing into a net off the mound. Nobody, not even a father, can be their motivation. It has to be a deep love for the game and a desire to succeed that pushes them. I blew my chances and it's nobody's fault by my own. All you can do as a father or a coach is hope that they leave nothing for regret. So yes Jup, you are correct in saying that players(not just pitchers) have to be self motivated to get better, but there are tools that educate a player and coaches and organizations are the boxes that hold the tools. They can certainly help a player progress just as easily as they can hold them back. IMO a cookie cutter approach doesn't work and I think that is something that this organization learned form Bauer. In that sense I think this organization is creative and has learned to get out of the way of some while making subtle suggestions to others. I do think that this organization is on the forefront of keeping pitchers healthy(minus line drives) and recognizing certain talents.
 

CATS44

Sixth Man
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
2,198
Reaction score
2,152
Points
113
So much to digest here.

First jup insists that our pitchers have developed on their own, in spite of the coaching. Then he says that many of those on staff that that helped them develop have left the org. You can't have it both ways. I do agree with the latter, though.

But this emphasis on developing pitching began the day Larry Dolan took over the organization, when he announced that the resources would be prioritized to the pitching side.

Cleveland is regarded within MLB as the best at developing young pitchers, which is why other teams have been poaching our pitching development personnel. Obviously, professional baseball people do not agree with jup's assessment.

******************

Looking at the sheer number of talented pitching prospects within the org right now makes it difficult...even impossible...to agree with the assessment that the well is anywhere close to running dry. In half the organizations today, Logan, Quantrill, and Moss would already be in the rotation already.

*****************

At the beginning of 2019, our rotation was Kluber, Carrasco, Bauers, Clevinger, and Bieber. Rodriguez was sixth, followed by Anderson and Plutko. The FO still held out hope that Chiang would provide depth.

Plesac had pitched in four games at AA. Impossible to say that he had already had major success in the upper minors. He was probably eleventh on the depth chart.

Civale did have 106 IP in Akron, and his success was based upon his ability to avoid walking batter, although he gave up enough hits to keep his WHIP up. He was billed as Bieber lite. He was probably tenth on the depth chart.

At the outset of the season, neither looked like anything more than a late season call up for a spot starter at the best.

I will add that Bieber began the previous season with only nine starts in AA under his belt.

Of the three, only Civale could be said to have had much success in the upper minors, and none of them had seen AAA.

****************

In comparison to 2018, we go into this year with a rotation of Biebs, Plesac, Civale, and two out TMac, Quantrill, Allen, and Moss. The other two plus Plutko will be 6-7-8. Not counting Plutko, whichever two dont make the rotation have a ton more experience in the upper minors than any of our front three rotation pieces did going into 2019. And all three had success at those levels.

We also will have Morgan in AA, whose had as much, or more, success in AA as Beibs-Plesac-Civale did going into 2019.
We will also have Mejia, whose progress is difficult to assess, because last season was wiped out. He would probably advanced thru AA and AAA last year.

No way on paper is this years rotation as good as the 2019 opening day rotation, but the over all 1 thru 10 is far better. But in hindsight, our situation today is a lot better than it ended up being in 2019.

************

Because of the mercurial advance of Bieber-Plesac-Civale, the org was left with a huge gap in pitching between them and the next wave. Only the oft injured TMac fit between them and Morgan.

The trades that brought in Allen, Moss, and Quantrill more than filled that gap.

It should be noted that every time we make a major trade, esp one of our SPs, we get at least one SP in return.

Without those three, our rotation would have Plutko as #5, with Scott and Morgan behind him.

*****************

Now that the gap has been filled, the rotation should be in good shape until the next wave is ready....Morgan, Mejia, Espino, Torres, Hankins, Vargas, Cantillo, Wolf, Morris, etc.
 
Last edited:

CDAV45

Dingers!
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
1,381
Reaction score
853
Points
113
I recall the conversations of Civale and Bieber on the old site. I remember the excitement for Bieber and I questioned why there was little to none for Civale. I viewed them both as control specialists with pretty good stuff. Bieber's FB played a little better, but Civale could spin the ball like no other. In fact, his slider was always rated higher than any of Bieber's offspeed pitches. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Civale suffered a couple of minor injuries that hampered his progression a bit. After all, they drafted Civale(92) before they did Bieber(122) and I'm sure there was a reason for that. Clearly Bieber has developed to a point that I doubt Civale will ever reach, but I think A-A-Ron's development is not over.
 

CATS44

Sixth Man
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
2,198
Reaction score
2,152
Points
113
You are correct, 45.

If you assume that the FO will continue its SOP, JRam will be traded before he hits free agency, as will Biebs. Both those trades will bring back one highly rated upper level pitching prospect, along with a very young SP prospect with upside, like Cantillo.

Not all of what we have and what we will acquire will ever be much as a rotation piece, if anything at all. But the sheer number with high upside should keep the rotation strong for the next decade.

I see absolutely no reason to think the well is gonna dry up any time in the foreseeable future, nor do I see the org's phenomenal ability to develop pitchers suddenly disappear. Not as long as developing pitchers remains the mantra of the Dolan owned Indians/Spiders/Whatevers.
 

CDAV45

Dingers!
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
1,381
Reaction score
853
Points
113
You are correct, 45.

If you assume that the FO will continue its SOP, JRam will be traded before he hits free agency, as will Biebs. Both those trades will bring back one highly rated upper level pitching prospect, along with a very young SP prospect with upside, like Cantillo.

Not all of what we have and what we will acquire will ever be much as a rotation piece, if anything at all. But the sheer number with high upside should keep the rotation strong for the next decade.

I see absolutely no reason to think the well is gonna dry up any time in the foreseeable future, nor do I see the org's phenomenal ability to develop pitchers suddenly disappear. Not as long as developing pitchers remains the mantra of the Dolan owned Indians/Spiders/Whatevers.
They certainly have an eye for it, a good structure to allow maturation, or both. I think it starts with focusing on improving strike throwers arsenals. From there they tweak and try and tweak some more until that strike thrower can locate most, if not all of his pitches in the zone. The ability to spin a baseball is obviously high on their priority list as well.

I edited this post to add this. I expect that the rotation will continue to be successful, but it certainly isn't etched in stone. I also can't speak to what this organization will do going forward. All I can do is look at what they've done and if there is a pattern then they're likely to do it again. Will they trade Ramirez? I expect them to, but I hope it doesn't follow the same pattern as Kluber and Lindor. Should he be traded, you bet your ass there will be a pitcher or 2 in the deal unless they wait too long to do it. They probably already know who it will be should they decide to deal him. CA and MC don't do things on a whim.
 
Last edited:

Gson

In the Rotation
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1,392
Reaction score
646
Points
113
You are correct, 45.

If you assume that the FO will continue its SOP, JRam will be traded before he hits free agency, as will Biebs. Both those trades will bring back one highly rated upper level pitching prospect, along with a very young SP prospect with upside, like Cantillo.

Not all of what we have and what we will acquire will ever be much as a rotation piece, if anything at all. But the sheer number with high upside should keep the rotation strong for the next decade.

I see absolutely no reason to think the well is gonna dry up any time in the foreseeable future, nor do I see the org's phenomenal ability to develop pitchers suddenly disappear. Not as long as developing pitchers remains the mantra of the Dolan owned Indians/Spiders/Whatevers.
Agree with all this..

The injuries that Civale sustained were a lat strain and some shoulder stiffness.. Neither of which required surgery.. Since the lat strain. he's added nearly 20 pounds of muscle mass and about two ticks to his FB.. but it's how he spins a breaking ball & controls/commands it that makes him special.. His method of attack varies greatly from Biebs.. Makes putting those two guys back to back in the rotation all the more effective, imho...
 

CDAV45

Dingers!
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
1,381
Reaction score
853
Points
113
yeah.. the run-ins Mick had with guys over the time he called the corner of carnegie and ontario home were polarizing..

-The idea that Carlos Carrasco was an immature head hunter that couldn't control his emotions
-The constant head butting with Trevor Bauer..

The talent was there and has proven it.. the intent to bend the players & their talent to the Calla-way.. was never going to work.. I was thrilled to see him go to the Mets..

...the lude photo stuff & other behavior crap, aside.
Listen, I'm a Bauer fan, but he came to the Indians because of his own polarizing personality. It continued with Callaway obviously. I think Callaway was a successful pitching coach with certain pitchers and a failure with any that were "outside the box". Looking back, it doesn't appear that Callaway was a good match for this FO's open mindedness. Maybe they weren't that open minded to begin with and Bauer's influence helped them along. All speculation on my part.
 

Criznit

In the Rotation
Joined
Mar 9, 2020
Messages
906
Reaction score
543
Points
93
Speaking of Callaway - seems like that has quieted down.. Check this out please. Read the headline and then the article.. Where does it say "why he hasn't been fired"? Is it implying the reason he has not been fired is his denial of wrong doing? What did I miss??

 

AZ_

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
38,268
Reaction score
43,264
Points
148
Speaking of Callaway - seems like that has quieted down.. Check this out please. Read the headline and then the article.. Where does it say "why he hasn't been fired"? Is it implying the reason he has not been fired is his denial of wrong doing? What did I miss??


From a legal perspective, his denial warrants an investigation. They’d be making a mistake firing him without one.

I don’t know what they’ll do, quite frankly, he’s not the worst offender...

Probably not the worst offender on that team.
 

Criznit

In the Rotation
Joined
Mar 9, 2020
Messages
906
Reaction score
543
Points
93
From a legal perspective, his denial warrants an investigation. They’d be making a mistake firing him without one.

I don’t know what they’ll do, quite frankly, he’s not the worst offender...

Probably not the worst offender on that team.

Understood - but based on the headline, I expected a straightforward answer which is not at all present if you ask me. Total clickbait headline - with a no shit sherlock answer.
 

CATS44

Sixth Man
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
2,198
Reaction score
2,152
Points
113
Man, its a tough crowd, led by Bauer aficionados.

While Calloway was our pitching coach our staff was consistently among the truly elite in nearly every imaginable category.

Two pitchers who had struggled previous to his advancement to Cleveland blossomed into top ten starters, one of which won two CYs.

Tito, himself, said that Calloway was the reason we made the 2016 Series.

It is true that Bauer brought a new perspective, but Calloway was the key to our pitching success, which means he was the key, behind Francona, to our overall success...success that cannot be denied.
 

RCF Reserves

Total amount
$245.00
Top