Ideas on how to make this team a WS competitor going forward

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CDAV45

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Because I don't like the smartass "fantasy trade" title. Feel free to comment as you wish and don't worry about cluttering up the place.
 

Alabuckeye

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I think they have a really good base for it in their talent identification and development of pitching. That is key.

For all the success with that, they've had just horrible success developing the every day players though. More recently have gotten away(Urshela, Yandy) without reaching full potential than I can remember in a while.

They will never be a huge revenue/payroll club. The space just doesn't allow for it. So, they must slow the desire to sign every retread that comes along in the hopes that they find that lightening in a bottle for the field and bat. Development, and then fill gaps.

One of my main gripes with them is that they've fallen in love with the platoon. Putting two weak/flawed players together in the hope that the sum of the parts is greater than the individual.
 

Gson

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Statistically, strict platoons work.. There are only restrictions on pitchers.. none on hitters. Hence, the platoons.. are never going to be as effective as the statistics show, especially those that the analytics of baseball rely on.

Pitching: the Indians have at every level of the organization.. With "just" pitching, the Indians are relevant against any team at any time.

A little bit of hitting.. extending the lineup from three or four guys who can be relied on to four to six.. makes ALL the difference in the outcome of baseball games.. There are times when the older guys have to be retained on the roster as they play out their contract. With a lineup that is six or seven deep.. and our pitching.. The Indians would win the division.. perpetually...

Free Agents: Is the land of diminishing returns.. A "bridge" player will continue to be signed when the parent club is not able to infuse a ML ready prospect from the system. It is my and many people's opinion that a LARGE number of guys, especially those who's pedigree is less than optimal, are not given the chance to prove/disprove their readiness.. and are lost..

Thoughts?..
 

Lee

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FYI - There's an annual "Fantasy Trade" thread in the Cavs section of the site and I don't recall anyone complaining about the title.

Personally I hate all fantasy threads, thus love the title because it allows me to stay out of the threads knowing I wont like it.

Not sure why anyone would complain about the title, its perfect...some love them, some like me hate them, but that is why we have strict rules allowing all of us to enjoy this site and the things about it we like.
 

Gson

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https://blogs.fangraphs.com/top-36-prospects-cincinnati-reds/

As a possible trade partner for the Indians for this thread titled "WGAFF".. the prospect listing from FanGraphs is here.. I like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 23, and 34... and especially 1, 5, and 10 as guys the Indians would be more likely to able to benefit from over the next three seasons.

Thoughts?
 

Gson

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Consolidating some of the better suggestions might end up with:

=======================================================
-Indians Give: Francisco Lindor SS (36.2) and Zach Plesac RHSP (53.6) = 89.8
-Braves Give: William Contreras C (20.6), Austin Riley 3B (19.5), Dansby Swanson SS (16.8) and Drew Waters CF/OF (40.9) = 98.8
=======================================================
=======================================================
-Indians Give: Jose Ramirez 3B (72.8) & Competitive Balance Lottery B Pick (5) = (77.8)
-Blue Jays Give: Lourdes Gurriel Jr OF/2B (26.2), Alek Manoah RHSP (12.4) & Jordan Groshans SS/3B (40.1) = 78.7
=======================================================

That means the Indians will see Zach Plesac leave along with their left side of the infield. In their place, the Indians will have:

A new back up catcher William Contreras
A new OF with Drew Waters in CF and Lourdes Gurriel in LF
A new left side of the infield with Dansby Swanson and Austin Riley
A new RHSP to compete for a spot in the rotation in big Alek Manoah

& finally...

A new # 1 prospect in the organization in Jordan Groshans..

This is a group of hitters who have huge upside.. while only seeing the pitching staff slightly dinged with the loss of Plesac. That ding will be smoooothed over with the addition of Manoah.. a potential MOR/TOR ceiling starting pitcher..

oh.. and to support Criznit's statement (that I agree with).. the Indians would also reduce their payroll by over $ 25 MM for 2021..

This could end up being the fastest retool in the history of baseball.. It could keep the Indians competitive window open for four more years.. beginning in 2021 at the earliest..but realistically.. 2022 and onward..
 

sportscoach

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Consolidating some of the better suggestions might end up with:

=======================================================
-Indians Give: Francisco Lindor SS (36.2) and Zach Plesac RHSP (53.6) = 89.8
-Braves Give: William Contreras C (20.6), Austin Riley 3B (19.5), Dansby Swanson SS (16.8) and Drew Waters CF/OF (40.9) = 98.8
=======================================================
=======================================================
-Indians Give: Jose Ramirez 3B (72.8) & Competitive Balance Lottery B Pick (5) = (77.8)
-Blue Jays Give: Lourdes Gurriel Jr OF/2B (26.2), Alek Manoah RHSP (12.4) & Jordan Groshans SS/3B (40.1) = 78.7
=======================================================

That means the Indians will see Zach Plesac leave along with their left side of the infield. In their place, the Indians will have:

A new back up catcher William Contreras
A new OF with Drew Waters in CF and Lourdes Gurriel in LF
A new left side of the infield with Dansby Swanson and Austin Riley
A new RHSP to compete for a spot in the rotation in big Alek Manoah

& finally...

A new # 1 prospect in the organization in Jordan Groshans..

This is a group of hitters who have huge upside.. while only seeing the pitching staff slightly dinged with the loss of Plesac. That ding will be smoooothed over with the addition of Manoah.. a potential MOR/TOR ceiling starting pitcher..

oh.. and to support Criznit's statement (that I agree with).. the Indians would also reduce their payroll by over $ 25 MM for 2021..

This could end up being the fastest retool in the history of baseball.. It could keep the Indians competitive window open for four more years.. beginning in 2021 at the earliest..but realistically.. 2022 and onward..

Honestly, that isnt enough in my mind for Jose Ramirez and Plesac is worth way more as well. Plesac himself should merit another player since he is on essentially his first contract and isnt even due Arbitration until 23. IF he didnt get himself suspended (aka the alternate site stint) in 20, he would have gotten some Cy Young votes and is going into his prime. I would want LHP Tucker Davidson and SS Vaughn Grissom included in the deal even if we have to add a PTBNL/A ball player in it. Braves have to overpay if they want Plesac at the end of the day. Not sure why he is even being included in deals since he makes almost no sense to move outside of his, suspension time last season to move.

JRam would be stolen from us at that price, so the Indians would want more without a doubt. IF we traded/knew we are trading Plesac/McKenzie, we would add a PTBNL/a minor league arm and get Merryweather plus C Riley Adams back in the deal.

Then we would then go and move Hedges for whatever we could get for him.

Is it possible to either send me the link to the site your are using or update the trade to add in those guys I mentioned. I wanna see if it possible to work out in the numbers you are using.
 

CDAV45

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Consolidating some of the better suggestions might end up with:

=======================================================
-Indians Give: Francisco Lindor SS (36.2) and Zach Plesac RHSP (53.6) = 89.8
-Braves Give: William Contreras C (20.6), Austin Riley 3B (19.5), Dansby Swanson SS (16.8) and Drew Waters CF/OF (40.9) = 98.8
=======================================================
=======================================================
-Indians Give: Jose Ramirez 3B (72.8) & Competitive Balance Lottery B Pick (5) = (77.8)
-Blue Jays Give: Lourdes Gurriel Jr OF/2B (26.2), Alek Manoah RHSP (12.4) & Jordan Groshans SS/3B (40.1) = 78.7
=======================================================

That means the Indians will see Zach Plesac leave along with their left side of the infield. In their place, the Indians will have:

A new back up catcher William Contreras
A new OF with Drew Waters in CF and Lourdes Gurriel in LF
A new left side of the infield with Dansby Swanson and Austin Riley
A new RHSP to compete for a spot in the rotation in big Alek Manoah

& finally...

A new # 1 prospect in the organization in Jordan Groshans..

This is a group of hitters who have huge upside.. while only seeing the pitching staff slightly dinged with the loss of Plesac. That ding will be smoooothed over with the addition of Manoah.. a potential MOR/TOR ceiling starting pitcher..

oh.. and to support Criznit's statement (that I agree with).. the Indians would also reduce their payroll by over $ 25 MM for 2021..

This could end up being the fastest retool in the history of baseball.. It could keep the Indians competitive window open for four more years.. beginning in 2021 at the earliest..but realistically.. 2022 and onward.
G, I agree with Coach here. That return seems light in both these deals. Plesac's value has got to be up there considering, his age, control, cost, and performance. I'm not saying your idea is bad at all, quite the opposite in fact. I just think that the Braves would have to include one of Muller/Davidson and Minter to even it out. They might prefer to send Mullers since he has to be protected from the Rule V and rostered. Like Coach said, if there has to be a prospect or PTBNL going to the Braves then I would be fine with that. The Braves may prefer to keep Muller/Davidson and Minter, and take Civale instead of Plesac. If that's the case then your original return would work for me. They have Shewmake if they don't intend or can't extend Lindor, but I would be fine with giving them another good SS prospect should they feel the need for some protection. The only one that I would be reluctant to deal at this time is Arias. They could get Freeman from me, but there would have to be some negotiations.

If the Blue Jays want Ramirez(who wouldn't) then the price would be Guirriel Jr, Groshans, Woods Richardson, and Merryweather. I see Naylor as a LH version of him going forward and I would like to see Reyes make a claim in LF as well, but he is a nice player and would certainly help this team. What would you fine people think about replacing Guirriel Jr with Biggio? The need for a 2B is greater than LF IMO, and Cavin offers some versatility like Riley. Cavin would find himself pushed out of the IF anyway so this could work for both teams. So in the end it would be Ramirez for Biggio, Groshans, Woods Richardson, and Merryweather. If they insisted on the draft pick then fine.

So when the smoke clears we have lost Ramirez, Lindor, and Plesac. That's a big blow and would be difficult to recover from immediately. Let's take a look around the diamond and see what we have.

C- Perez, Contreras
1B- Jones, Bauers
2B- Biggio
3B- Riley
SS- Swanson
LF- Reyes, Naylor
CF- Waters
RF- Johnson, Reyes
UIF- Chang, Miller
DH- Reyes, Naylor

The rotation depth would be:
Bieber
Carrasco
Quantrill
Civale
McKenzie
Allen
Woods Richardson
Muller/Davidson
Moss

The BP would be:
Karinchak
Clase
Merryweather
Wittgren
Minter
Nelson
Maton/Hill

I don't know about you guys, but that's a team I would be excited about. They would still have Carrasco who could be kept until his contract expires or traded before he reaches his 10/5 rights. The MIF would be solidified immediately so that we wouldn't have to rush or rely on prospects that aren't ready. We've added Groshans who becomes our #1 to pair with Jones and Valera. Now that's some offensive potential to make any fan excited. We've replaced Lindor with a pretty damn good SS in his own right, but he doesn't block any of Freeman, Arias, or Rocchio past the 21 season. Dansby would be easy to deal should one of those prospects push him out. We have pitching and MIF value in spades to use however helps this team the most. The thing is my fellow posters, this isn't a far fetched fantasy. These are fair deals that help all the teams involved.
 

Gson

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Honestly, that isnt enough in my mind for Jose Ramirez and Plesac is worth way more as well. Plesac himself should merit another player since he is on essentially his first contract and isnt even due Arbitration until 23. IF he didnt get himself suspended (aka the alternate site stint) in 20, he would have gotten some Cy Young votes and is going into his prime. I would want LHP Tucker Davidson and SS Vaughn Grissom included in the deal even if we have to add a PTBNL/A ball player in it. Braves have to overpay if they want Plesac at the end of the day. Not sure why he is even being included in deals since he makes almost no sense to move outside of his, suspension time last season to move.

JRam would be stolen from us at that price, so the Indians would want more without a doubt. IF we traded/knew we are trading Plesac/McKenzie, we would add a PTBNL/a minor league arm and get Merryweather plus C Riley Adams back in the deal.

Then we would then go and move Hedges for whatever we could get for him.

Is it possible to either send me the link to the site your are using or update the trade to add in those guys I mentioned. I wanna see if it possible to work out in the numbers you are using.
Hmmm...

To start with.. BaseballTradeValues.com is the site these numbers are taken from. There are four or five other sites that have "trade evaluation" algorithms that may be just as inaccurate/biased as this one, but, this one is easily accessible..

Plesac is worth more.. IDK if that is true... but, like many here, would like it to be.. The "party with the homies" during the pandemic thing is a complete non-starter for me. That is.. a public scolding and a few cy young votes sound great on TV..and that's about all it means.. Answer the question...what does he do with the rock in his hand with a one run lead, two outs and facing Jose Abreu?.. For most of the time.. Plesac as a first year ML'er delivers.. and that's a good thing.. Everyone can see he's an athletic quick twitch athlete with a pedigree that foretells success.... and is at his highest value right now.. With the Indians staring at a "must trade Lindor world"... and the negative result on the ability to compete that accompany that deal.. making a retool effort that includes the most valuable/most expendable SP, and, coincidentally has the least affect on the rest of the team, puts some real meat on the table for the Tribe offense..
Is it enough meat? I think so.. Would I want more?.. you don't get unless you ask.. The proposed trade was evaluated using the algorithm and shows the Indians would receive about $ 10 MM in excess value from the deal.. Adding a couple of interesting prospect.. in either/both directions wouldn't hurt my feelings.. and probably wouldn't matter much at all to the deal..

The only part of your statement I disagree with.. is questioning and disagreeing with why including Plesac is part of the deal..

The Blue Jays deal has the same kind of approach w/r to Julian Merryweather and the catcher, Riles.. We all watched and were "excited" with the performance of Julian Merryweather as he ascended through the Indians system.. but, two year later.. a few stops & starts.. sputters and corrections.. Julian Merryweather could be damn good bullpen arm with a chance at spot starting.. An injury delayed or further delayed late bloomer.. He adds almost nothing to the value of the deal.. but could be an interesting BP arm.. IDK what Riles will become.. but, he's about sixth in line with the Blue Jays catching heirarchy.. Including him would be a ho-hum..

Agree with you that Jose is undervalued with this deal.. I would love to keep the Competitive "B" Lottery Draft Pick or, swap out Alek Manoah for Simeon Woods Richardson.. but, my "spidey sense" says Manoah's floor is waaaaaaay higher than SWR's.. and would be a better candidate, in the end, for a LONGER major league career... I could be wrong on that assessment.. but, I'm biased when it comes to pitching talent.. and know the CLEFO would look at SWR as a polished control freak who's stuff is only going to get better..and they might be more than just a little right about that..

Thanks for the honest response...
 

Gson

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@CDAV45

Changing Gurriel for Biggio would be a no go for me.. only because Gurriel is a better outfielder. I believe the Indians can fill the 2B spot internally.. but have proven they are less capable of filling outfield spots..

I have Naylor at 1B over Bauers.. with Nolan Jones fighting for a roster spot after proving his splits are a factor of how he's been used.. not his abilities..

Otherwise.. that is a lineup that can be exciting.. and the pitching staff, sans Plesac, remains intact and is being fed with more and younger talented kids..
 

CDAV45

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Changing Gurriel for Biggio would be a no go for me.. only because Gurriel is a better outfielder. I believe the Indians can fill the 2B spot internally.. but have proven they are less capable of filling outfield spots..

I have Naylor at 1B over Bauers.. with Nolan Jones fighting for a roster spot after proving his splits are a factor of how he's been used.. not his abilities..

Otherwise.. that is a lineup that can be exciting.. and the pitching staff, sans Plesac, remains intact and is being fed with more and younger talented kids..
I don't know that Guirriel Jr is a better defender when comparing him to Biggio at 2B. The thing that Biggio brings that Gurriel Jr does not possess is versatility. Biggio is also a lot better at getting on base and has comparable power.

I do not see the 5'10" Naylor as a 1B and he is a better in LF. I do see the 6'4" Jones as a legitimate 1B though. Possibly a GG 1B at that.
 

Gson

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I don't know that Guirriel Jr is a better defender when comparing him to Biggio at 2B. The thing that Biggio brings that Gurriel Jr does not possess is versatility. Biggio is also a lot better at getting on base and has comparable power.

I do not see the 5'10" Naylor as a 1B and he is a better in LF. I do see the 6'4" Jones as a legitimate 1B though. Possibly a GG 1B at that.
At 2B.. Gurriel would be a disaster compared to Biggio.. Biggio has been groomed as a 2B since he was a sperm.. Also, I'd rather see Tyler Freeman at 2B and Gurriel Jr in LF over Biggio at 2B.. Tyler is a SS now.. but he's destined to wind up at 2B and be every bit as good as anyone we've seen there since Robby, imho..

w/r to Naylor... as a 1B.. he'd be the equal of Los !..

Agree, Nolan Jones at 1B would offer a bigger target..but I still question his splits.. BTW.. so would Franmill [as a target at 1B].. Given that Franmill has been taking reps at 1B.. it's all but a certainty that he's going to get some time at 1B.. RF and LF.. I am certain of that..
 
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sportscoach

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Hmmm...

To start with.. BaseballTradeValues.com is the site these numbers are taken from. There are four or five other sites that have "trade evaluation" algorithms that may be just as inaccurate/biased as this one, but, this one is easily accessible..

Plesac is worth more.. IDK if that is true... but, like many here, would like it to be.. The "party with the homies" during the pandemic thing is a complete non-starter for me. That is.. a public scolding and a few cy young votes sound great on TV..and that's about all it means.. Answer the question...what does he do with the rock in his hand with a one run lead, two outs and facing Jose Abreu?.. For most of the time.. Plesac as a first year ML'er delivers.. and that's a good thing.. Everyone can see he's an athletic quick twitch athlete with a pedigree that foretells success.... and is at his highest value right now.. With the Indians staring at a "must trade Lindor world"... and the negative result on the ability to compete that accompany that deal.. making a retool effort that includes the most valuable/most expendable SP, and, coincidentally has the least affect on the rest of the team, puts some real meat on the table for the Tribe offense..
Is it enough meat? I think so.. Would I want more?.. you don't get unless you ask.. The proposed trade was evaluated using the algorithm and shows the Indians would receive about $ 10 MM in excess value from the deal.. Adding a couple of interesting prospect.. in either/both directions wouldn't hurt my feelings.. and probably wouldn't matter much at all to the deal..

The only part of your statement I disagree with.. is questioning and disagreeing with why including Plesac is part of the deal..

The Blue Jays deal has the same kind of approach w/r to Julian Merryweather and the catcher, Riles.. We all watched and were "excited" with the performance of Julian Merryweather as he ascended through the Indians system.. but, two year later.. a few stops & starts.. sputters and corrections.. Julian Merryweather could be damn good bullpen arm with a chance at spot starting.. An injury delayed or further delayed late bloomer.. He adds almost nothing to the value of the deal.. but could be an interesting BP arm.. IDK what Riles will become.. but, he's about sixth in line with the Blue Jays catching heirarchy.. Including him would be a ho-hum..

Agree with you that Jose is undervalued with this deal.. I would love to keep the Competitive "B" Lottery Draft Pick or, swap out Alek Manoah for Simeon Woods Richardson.. but, my "spidey sense" says Manoah's floor is waaaaaaay higher than SWR's.. and would be a better candidate, in the end, for a LONGER major league career... I could be wrong on that assessment.. but, I'm biased when it comes to pitching talent.. and know the CLEFO would look at SWR as a polished control freak who's stuff is only going to get better..and they might be more than just a little right about that..

Thanks for the honest response...

I would take the best of Manoah, Woods-Richardson and Kloffenstein to be honest. Whichever one they decide is the best arm and honestly Woods-Richardson fits the bill more since Indians are a control first organization and he has the best control of the three.

I feel personally that Plesac will be legit going forward and I would trade McKenzie before Plesac. I am just scared of McKenzie's durability at the end of the day, while I am not scared about anything with Plesac especially when his numbers in 20, legitimately say a 2/3 in a legit rotation. I would move McKenzie instead of Plesac if I needed to move one to get a bat.

Have you watched the innings from Merryweather in 20? He would be a setup/closer in the bullpen or 3/4th starter rank even with our rotation. You don't get ranked as a prospect at 29 if you been in the minors as long as he has without having an electric arm and he has got one.


He never hit 99 with the Indians and now he can hit it with his fastball but sits at almost 97. His changeup sits at 81 and is a plus pitch and is considered a 60 grade. Add in a slider and curveball, he has a sold mix of pitches with good control. I saw in his film he could and would throw his fastball and changeup at any time in the count and could strike out guys with his slider as well.

From what I can tell about Riley Adams, he would compare to in the minors to.... a slightly weaker armed Roberto Perez. We need catching depth and the Blue jays have that. I mean last time we got a low ranked catching prospect from them, his name was.. Yan Gomes so I am not afraid to try again with a catcher from them. I feel with learning from Perez and Hedges, he would become a legit defensive guy. Naylor should be our future start there making Adams a legit MLB backup that we need right now depth wise.
 

hockeyjohn

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Consolidating some of the better suggestions might end up with:

=======================================================
-Indians Give: Francisco Lindor SS (36.2) and Zach Plesac RHSP (53.6) = 89.8
-Braves Give: William Contreras C (20.6), Austin Riley 3B (19.5), Dansby Swanson SS (16.8) and Drew Waters CF/OF (40.9) = 98.8
=======================================================
=======================================================
-Indians Give: Jose Ramirez 3B (72.8) & Competitive Balance Lottery B Pick (5) = (77.8)
-Blue Jays Give: Lourdes Gurriel Jr OF/2B (26.2), Alek Manoah RHSP (12.4) & Jordan Groshans SS/3B (40.1) = 78.7
=======================================================

That means the Indians will see Zach Plesac leave along with their left side of the infield. In their place, the Indians will have:

A new back up catcher William Contreras
A new OF with Drew Waters in CF and Lourdes Gurriel in LF
A new left side of the infield with Dansby Swanson and Austin Riley
A new RHSP to compete for a spot in the rotation in big Alek Manoah

& finally...

A new # 1 prospect in the organization in Jordan Groshans..

This is a group of hitters who have huge upside.. while only seeing the pitching staff slightly dinged with the loss of Plesac. That ding will be smoooothed over with the addition of Manoah.. a potential MOR/TOR ceiling starting pitcher..

oh.. and to support Criznit's statement (that I agree with).. the Indians would also reduce their payroll by over $ 25 MM for 2021..

This could end up being the fastest retool in the history of baseball.. It could keep the Indians competitive window open for four more years.. beginning in 2021 at the earliest..but realistically.. 2022 and onward..
I don't see competing in 2021 with these moves and who knows about 2022. After that, we will be looking at trading Bieber as he comes closer to free agency. Riley has not shown that he can hit at the major league level. Waters has had strike out issues in the minors and I would not expect much from him in 2021 so for 2021 we go from Lindor and Ramirez to Swanson and Gurriel which would be a definite step back. I do want Gurriel back in a Lindor trade however. In my opinion, giving up on 2021 with our starting pitching makes me sick. Just my opinion for what it is worth.
 

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