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Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

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Who is Isaac Okoro's Favorite Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor?

  • Arcadius (if one does not count Constantine as first)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Justinian the Great

    Votes: 9 15.8%
  • Zeno

    Votes: 2 3.5%
  • Heraclius

    Votes: 3 5.3%
  • Basil II, the Bulgar Slayer

    Votes: 6 10.5%
  • Nikephoros II Phokas, the Pale Death of the Saracens

    Votes: 7 12.3%
  • Alexios I Komnenos

    Votes: 4 7.0%
  • John II, the Beautiful Komnenos

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Constantine XI

    Votes: 4 7.0%
  • Jim I Chones, the Magnificent

    Votes: 26 45.6%

  • Total voters
    57
Danny Green is legitimately one of the best help defenders at the guard position in the modern era and he’s in a different world than Isaac as a shooter and someone who the defense will always have to be aware of and sticking to. JR pre-2017 was an underrated defender for the Cavs but more importantly he was a lightning offensive option who was always moving on offense hunting for catch and shoot looks. He shot 43% from 3 on 7+ attempts per game in the 2016 playoffs. He was a guy who could quickly light up your team for 6-7 threes on all contested looks and defenses were terrified of him going off, so he really manipulated the defense.

Okoro with a corner three still isn’t approaching that kind of value.
And it took him 3-4 years to become that player after spending 3 years at NC. He was waived by the Cavs and Spurs and sent to the G-league before he finally got good enough to get a contract. Let's re-evaluate Okoro when he gets maybe half of, or at least anything close to that level of experience, shall we?
 
I guess it really comes down to, how much time do the Cavs have to evaluate a lot of these guys? The rest of this season and next season, probably?

Garland is getting maxed out. Mobley is getting maxed out. Sexton might get a mid sized deal. I don’t really know the rest of the payroll matrix. I’m guessing deadline of next season is when push starts to come to shove about getting a good small forward and making a final determination on Okoro. But if Okoro fails to blossom, his value will probably lower by that point.

Cavs definitely have some big decisions on the horizon.
 
And it took him 3-4 years to become that player after spending 3 years at NC. He was waived by the Cavs and Spurs and sent to the G-league before he finally got good enough to get a contract. Let's re-evaluate Okoro when he gets maybe half of, or at least anything close to that level of experience, shall we?

Yes, Danny green got cut from our team for shooting 67% from the line and 27% from 3 at 22 years old. The odds of a 22 year old who couldn't get minutes on a terrible team turning into Danny Green was way more unlikely than Okoro becoming an average 3pt shooter
 
I dunno. A lot of this stuff sounds like people are willing to build around Okoro's weaknesses, essentially because he was such a high draft pick… and that's just a batshit insane idea.

Okoro's inability to shoot should have absolutely no effect on what kind of people we put around him. You don't accommodate a bad shooter in this NBA era. You play a guy who can shoot.

Yes, they are generally a LOT more expensive, and that's Koby's problem. Okoro is not nearly at a level where we have to have him on the court no matter what, long term.

The Fedor article linked above sounds like the team trying to boost Okoro's trade value, to be honest. Calling Okoro a "wing", etc… come the fuck on now.
 
I dunno. A lot of this stuff sounds like people are willing to build around Okoro's weaknesses, essentially because he was such a high draft pick… and that's just a batshit insane idea.

Okoro's inability to shoot should have absolutely no effect on what kind of people we put around him. You don't accommodate a bad shooter in this NBA era. You play a guy who can shoot.

If Okoro doesn't improve as a shooter, he likely won't remain a starter. And once he's no longer a "bad shooter", you don't have to accommodate him.
 
And it took him 3-4 years to become that player after spending 3 years at NC. He was waived by the Cavs and Spurs and sent to the G-league before he finally got good enough to get a contract. Let's re-evaluate Okoro when he gets maybe half of, or at least anything close to that level of experience, shall we?
We didn’t have nearly the sample size to go off of on Danny Green that we do on Okoro. Green played just 207 minutes his first two seasons. And when he played he actually wasn’t even bad. He posted a -0.2 and -0.6 BPM in each of those two years.

Okoro has played over 3000 minutes so far. Almost 15 times as much as Green did his first two years so he’s been given far more opportunity than Green to show us what he’s capable of. And Green is an extreme exception, not the rule. Furthermore, this is why I mentioned indicators in a prior post. Two guys can be just as bad as one another and yet have way different projections of improvement, like Garland his first 1.5 years for instance compared to Okoro so far. Despite being a very clear negative impact player at the time, Garland showed the makings of potentially elite shooting. He could shoot off the dribble and move off the ball and shoot it off the catch. And his great FT% suggested the three ball would start falling eventually. He was clearly a great ballhandler. Clearly has very good vision and playmaking talent. He just needed to get stronger, get a feel for the speed of the game, learn to make better decisions, and get adjusted to the longer NBA three.

Okoro’s indicators of potential thus far are not very inspiring to me. Poor FT%. His shot chart suggests how limited he is offensively as a result of his lack of handle, instincts, and creativity. He doesn’t have great touch around the rim. His low assist rate and mediocre ast/to ratio point to his lack of playmaking talent and vision. And being that his calling card is his defense, his low rebounding and steal numbers and overall lack of height and length don’t give me confidence he’ll top out as one of the most impactful defenders on the perimeter in the league. Which he kind of needs to be in order to warrant a starting spot with such weak offense. I think he’ll be a fantastic individual defender of the guard spots but his team defense and switchability will be lacking as a result of those aforementioned limitations.

People keep saying we have to wait years and years before we can really judge Okoro but I disagree. We have a great team right now. If we were posed to be a lottery team for the next couple years, maybe I wouldn’t be so hard on him and I’d be willing to wait as long as you guys are for him to prove himself. And then if he doesn’t, oh well. But Mobley has clearly accelerated this team’s timeline. We honestly have a chance to earn the #1 seed in the East THIS YEAR. And yet I don’t think anyone believes we can beat a healthy Brooklyn or Milwaukee in a playoffs series, and our lack of production at the 2 and perimeter creation on the whole is a huge reason why. If we can package Okoro with Sexton, Rubio, and/or picks to bring back a long term solution, we absolutely have to consider that. And that’s why it’s important to have this discussion on what the realistic expectations for Okoro are. You don’t want to just wait holding the bag until his trade value potentially totally depletes and we miss out on an opportunity to really upgrade this team.
 
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I dunno. A lot of this stuff sounds like people are willing to build around Okoro's weaknesses, essentially because he was such a high draft pick… and that's just a batshit insane idea.

Okoro's inability to shoot should have absolutely no effect on what kind of people we put around him. You don't accommodate a bad shooter in this NBA era. You play a guy who can shoot.

Yes, they are generally a LOT more expensive, and that's Koby's problem. Okoro is not nearly at a level where we have to have him on the court no matter what, long term.

The Fedor article linked above sounds like the team trying to boost Okoro's trade value, to be honest. Calling Okoro a "wing", etc… come the fuck on now.
It sucks how we've been losing games with Okoro dragging the team down. If only we could find someone who effected winning.
 
We didn’t have nearly the sample size to go off of on Danny Green that we do on Okoro. Green played just 207 minutes his first two seasons. And when he played he actually wasn’t even bad. He posted a -0.2 and -0.6 BPM in each of those two years.

Okoro has played over 3000 minutes so far. Almost 15 times as much as Green did his first two years so he’s been given far more opportunity than Green to show us what he’s capable of. And Green is an extreme exception, not the rule. Furthermore, this is why I mentioned indicators in a prior post. Two guys can be just as bad as one another and yet have way different projections of improvement, like Garland his first 1.5 years for instance compared to Okoro so far. Despite being a very clear negative impact player at the time, Garland showed the makings of potentially elite shooting. He could shoot off the dribble and move off the ball and shoot it off the catch. And his great FT% suggested the three ball would start falling eventually. He was clearly a great ballhandler. Clearly has very good vision and playmaking talent. He just needed to get stronger, get a feel for the speed of the game, learn to make better decisions, and get adjusted to the longer NBA three.

Okoro’s indicators of potential thus far are not very inspiring to me. Poor FT%. His shot chart suggests how limited he is offensively as a result of his lack of handle, instincts, and creativity. He doesn’t have great touch around the rim. His low assist rate and mediocre ast/to ratio point to his lack of playmaking talent and vision. And being that his calling card is his defense, his low rebounding and steal numbers and overall lack of height and length don’t give me confidence he’ll top out as one of the most impactful defenders on the perimeter in the league. Which he kind of needs to be in order to warrant a starting spot with such weak offense. I think he’ll be a fantastic individual defender of the guard spots but his team defense and switchability will be lacking as a result of those aforementioned limitations.

People keep saying we have to wait years and years before we can really judge Okoro but I disagree. We have a great team right now. If we were posed to be a lottery team for the next couple years, maybe I wouldn’t be so hard on him and I’d be willing to wait as long as you guys are for him to prove himself. And then if he doesn’t, oh well. But Mobley has clearly accelerated this team’s timeline. We honestly have a chance to earn the #1 seed in the East THIS YEAR. And yet I don’t think anyone believes we can beat a healthy Brooklyn or Milwaukee in a playoffs series, and our lack of production at the 2 and perimeter creation on the whole is a huge reason why. If we can package Okoro with Sexton, Rubio, and/or picks to bring back a long term solution, we absolutely have to consider that. And that’s why it’s important to have this discussion on what the realistic expectations for Okoro are. You don’t want to just wait holding the bag until his trade value potentially totally depletes and we miss out on an opportunity to really upgrade this team.

Danny Green sucked though. He didn't show anything in practice and when he was on the floor he was much worse than Dylan Windler and showed less. I remember it distinctly. Dude, he got outplayed by Manny Ladorable Harris! He didn't deserve minutes.

On the other hand Okoro is guarding the best guy every night, doing a great job, became a positive defender in just one year.

Yes, he is a shooting liability at the moment, but he does enough stuff well the coaches continue to start him even though the 2 wings behind him can clearly shoot much better.

He's also missed more than a quarter of the season.

I really think if we viewed Okoro as the rook and Mobley as the sophomore this wouldn't be such a big deal. They are 6 months apart in age. They are both in their NBA infancy no matter how many min Okoro has been played. He has to focus on defense for 40 min a night.

They took a project and now everyone wants to abandon the project. I doubt the front office feels this way.
 
One comment on Green and Thybulle vs Okoro...they are very different kind of defenders. Green/Thybulle are both very versatile, but Thybulle especially excels as a help defender/team defender. He is great at closing out and getting his massive limbs in passing lanes and shooting pockets. Green is similar with the best block rate by a guard not named Michael.

Okoro is a smart team defender, but I do not think of him as a help side guy. He is not the one swooping for chase down blocks or jumping cross-court passing lanes like you sometimes see Thybulle do. Okoro is a PoA defender and excels with staying with scorers who are trying to go into their attacking motions. He rarely bites on fakes and doesnt let guys get to their spots, forcing them to take uncomfortable, awkward shots.

This is a valuable skill and something that pairs extremely well with our front court where we have that elite help/team defender (Mobley) and a strong rim protector (Allen). In particular, this is a valuable skill in the playoffs where iso scoring is much more the norm. Case in point, Utah's biggest weakness right now is that they don't have that PoA defender. Even though they have the best rim protector in the league right now, it doesn't matter if every perimeter player can just get whatever midrange jimbo or stepback they want.

Now, Okoro's swing skill will certainly be his jumper. I dont expect him to be Bruce Bowen, but I do think a 33-35% 3pt shot is very possible. If he adds that, then I view him as a valuable 5th starter on a championship team. Any improvements in vision and ball handling are just an added bonus.

I also don't get why some people have insane expectations for him just because he was a 5th pick. Where you are picked is extremely contextual to the draft you are in. The 2020 NBA Draft was extremely weak. LaMelo and Ant where the only two that would be a top 5 pick in the average draft. Most of the top 10 picks in that draft match the talent usually available in late lottery or so. Okoro was not a reach where he was taken. You can argue we should have picked someone else (Hali?, Okongwu, Vassell) but Okoro was certainly in the same talent range as those guys on draft night.
 
Y’all realize Okoro just turned 20? For fucks sake people.

He’s already improved considerably in the short time he’s been in the league, and I don’t see that stopping.

Will he ever become a lights out shooter? No, that’s highly unlikely. But he can certainly get to league average numbers. And when you factor in his defense, you have somebody that can be a really nice contributor on a contender.
 
I don't think it is easy for fans to value young player's defensive ability. Offense is easy to see, defense not so much unless a star comes out and says 'Isaac Okoro shut me down' and no established vet is going to do that.
 
I don't think it is easy for fans to value young player's defensive ability. Offense is easy to see, defense not so much unless a star comes out and says 'Isaac Okoro shut me down' and no established vet is going to do that.
bingo
 
Guys, he is 20 years old for Christ sake, people are pissed the 20 year old isn’t contributing at a championship wing level yet. We aren’t winning a championship this year, that’s a fact.

I’m just not sure what people’s issue is. Isaac is 20( 4 months older than Mobley) and is already an elite perimeter defender. So much of the NBA is PG driven(deepest position in the nba by far) and he can shut those dudes down. That’s so incredibly valuable both in the playoffs and against the best teams during the RS. Not to mention, it works perfectly in our scheme with Mobley and Allen as switchable on wings/bigs.

What he gives to the team currently, elite defense and being a play finisher/winning player, is a great compliment to this team. We don’t need him to be a 20ppg player. It would be great if he could, but he can’t yet. Doesn’t mean he should be out of the league or relegated to a bench role.

Not everyone on the team can be a 20 pt per game player, no one should expect that. Isaac is a connector, he can finish plays and doesn’t hold onto the ball/shoot bad shots out of the offensive flow. That has value on a young team with aspirations to grow in the future and winning now. And again THE DUDE IS STILL 20, he isn’t a finished product.

I heard patience for Sexton(playmaking and defense) and for Garland(aggressiveness and comfort ability in the NBA), why can’t we have patience for Isaac? Trading him is selling low on someone who already fits the timeline and roster, so it would have to be a home run to be worth trading him.
 
Offense is easy to see, defense not so much unless a star comes out and says 'Isaac Okoro shut me down' and no established vet is going to do that.

Kyrie basically did that on the court after the game ended, but otherwise I agree with ya.

However, it shouldn't be hard to notice SGA going 1-5 or whatever it was in the 4th with Okoro on him.

Whether or not that defensive presence is enough to warrant him playing starter's minutes without "much" scoring/3PT shooting is debatable, sure, but let's give Okoro some damn time. Some folks are acting like we're in LeBron-could-bolt-at-any-minute mode, when instead we're playing with house money this season and methodically building what could very well be a dynasty.
 

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