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Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

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Who is Isaac Okoro's Favorite Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor?

  • Arcadius (if one does not count Constantine as first)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Justinian the Great

    Votes: 8 14.3%
  • Zeno

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Heraclius

    Votes: 3 5.4%
  • Basil II, the Bulgar Slayer

    Votes: 6 10.7%
  • Nikephoros II Phokas, the Pale Death of the Saracens

    Votes: 7 12.5%
  • Alexios I Komnenos

    Votes: 4 7.1%
  • John II, the Beautiful Komnenos

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Constantine XI

    Votes: 4 7.1%
  • Jim I Chones, the Magnificent

    Votes: 26 46.4%

  • Total voters
    56
there's not really a stat for "makes quick decisions with the ball" but if there were, I'd call it the mqd ratio, which would be how quickly a player makes a decisive action with the ball once he receives it in the flow of the offense.
I currently have Okoro at a MQD Ratio of 0.934, which is very strong for such a young player, and points to elite feel for the game. I'll let you in on the tracking details later.
 
The bolded is a strongly held opinion, not a fact. Okoro has started because he's a better option than Cedi or Stevens. Even starting Rubio would've disrupted the entire second unit and the team as a whole. Okoro has missed 15 games this season. I must have missed the awesome improvement to the starting unit when he was out. Fans are significantly discounting his defensive impact and what it means for Garland to get the weaker assignment and for the bigs to be able to stay out of foul trouble.

Watch what happens to Okoro's +/- numbers now that Rubio's out for the season. It's not surprising that rotations with Rubio and Garland, when Rubio was having a career year, were better. But that doesn't follow that if if you tasked Rubio with defending the other team's best guard for 30mpg, it would've worked out better for the starters, the bench unit, or Rubio himself.
and what's odd is the offense isn't even in trouble, and the team defense is stellar. Cavs score points, the starters play well together with Okoro, and by and large we get W's. Most fifth options in the NBA don't put up 17, 18 PPG, Okoro getting 9-13 opportunistic points a game and playing good defense while moving the ball and making quick decisions is fine.
If we kept going into the middle of the first quarter down by 12 or so, yeah, I'd get the complaints.. but that hasn't been the case.
Cavs need another shot creator, doesn't need to be a starter, just needs to be available. If Rubio had stayed healthy, I'm not sure we'd have needed much at all.
 
i think the negativity towards okoro is highlighted because of his inability to create in the offense. right now, the only playmaker is garland who has the option to create for his own shot, or create for the bigs. once the defense clamps down on the bigs and on garland, there is nobody else to punish the defense for focusing on those 2 things.

on games when garland and the bigs get the offense going, okoro is a valuable cog to make life harder for the other team's offense. but if the other team's defense is clamping down on the cavs, okoro's offensive inability gets magnified because he can't make anything happen for the offense.

this year's team still has holes in it and this is why folks are anticipating a short playoff run, which is ok in my opinion. those holes can be patched organically through player development, and the only real timeline we should care about is if this is case 2 years from now.
 
He is literally a 2nd year player. I dont know why we expect our players to have complete games at age 20 and then ignore all the faults of the players we would rather have from other teams. What Okoro has that I think will really enable him to be a solid player is his elite feel. You cannot teach that.

I dont really care if he is costing us a few games this season, if it allows him to develop more long term, gets our guys more familiar with his game. I understand the desire to make reactionary hot takes after every game, but one game does not a season or career make. Trading for a filler 2 that limits Okoro's development time this season just to secure a slightly better seed this year is an awful move.
Yes. Look at the stats for someone like Trevor Ariza at 19-24 or whatever… Yes I know he’s taller than Okoro (shut up)…but they’re asked to do the same thing— defend the best perimeter guy and knock down shots….

It’s almost as if the Cavs being better than advertised this year has got people f*cked up…

Okoro brings energy and hustle every night…I will let him grow into where he’s deficient….

Am I harder on Mobley ? Yes! Because the areas where I see he is lacking is hustle… Rebound the ball and give me effort there as a front court big…. I’ll live with his limited post up moves and below average shooting as I believe that will develop over tIme and can be worked on… But I need to see that fire/desire within where he is lacking…

Whereas with Okoro I want and need that defensive effort… I’ll live with the lack of a jumper and limited offensive game, inability to create— I think his deficiencies can improve with reps over time….. I don’t see a future all star there— but I see someone that can be an elite defender and someone that can improve in his corner 3’s/slashing abilities….You need these kinda guys to win championships…
 
People talk about Okoro as if he and his (lack of) skills exist in a basketball vacuum. "Hey, he brings energy and hustle"? When you look at it like that, everything starts to sound like a luxury. And sure, all kinds of players have their uses in this sport. In theory.

My problem with starting him and giving him 30mpg is much more about his fit. In a basketball sense, you can't separate Okoro from the people he plays with. His flaws are such that the other guys have to work extra hard to cover for them. And by god, they are doing just that. It's a testament to the cohesion of the team that Isaac's nonexistent offense has been more or less absorbed into the fabric of our overall style of play.

My question is, why are we expecting the other players to do this extra work? Why are they being put into worse positions just to keep one guy on the court? I could maybe understand it if Okoro had some truly elite skill indispensable to the team, but he doesn't.

His main "skill" is his high draft position.

I don't dislike him for still being extremely raw - everyone's raw at some point. But raw players shouldn't be getting the kinds of minutes he's getting.
 
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People talk about Okoro as if he and his (lack of) skills exist in a basketball vacuum. "Hey, he brings energy and hustle"? When you look at it like that, everything starts to sound like a luxury. And sure, all kinds of players have their uses in this sport. In theory.

My problem with starting him and giving him 30mpg is much more about his fit. In a basketball sense, you can't separate Okoro from the people he plays with. His flaws are such that the other guys have to work extra hard to cover for them. And by god, they are doing just that. It's a testament to the cohesion of the team that Isaac's nonexistent offense has been more or less absorbed into the fabric of our overall style of play.

My question is, why are expecting the other players to do this extra work? Why are they being put into worse positions just to keep one guy on the court? I could maybe understand it if Okoro had some truly elite skill indispensable to the team, but he doesn't.

His main "skill" is his high draft position.

I don't dislike him for still being extremely raw - everyone's raw at some point. But raw players shouldn't be getting the kinds of minutes he's getting.
Yeah but theoretically you can say that about any star player and role player on any team.

Extra work ? Why are the 76ers counting on Embiid to score the majority of the points and get most of the team’s rebounds every night in contrast to the players around him that he plays with ? Why does he have to work harder than Shake Milton & Danny Green ?

It’s interesting cause if you go back to when Okoro was hurt people were bummed out… When he was hurt people would suggest part of the reason we were losing was because he was not out there. Our defense was taking a hit. People would mention that the Cavs needed to get him back…

I see the “potential” value he has as a defender.. Cause in no way am I suggesting he’s a shut down top 5 guy. But that’s obvious as to where he’s gonna make his niche… And having someone like Stevens to come in and spell him with some similarities is a nice luxury…

If the team can significantly improve that spot and get a better scorer with maybe a more limited defensive game — yeah I’d listen to that and consider for sure - I just don’t go into any game thinking Okoro is gonna give me 16pts, 7rbs, 4ast cause it’s simply not his game…

I’m way more concerned with the fact that we start three 7 footers and only average about 21-22 rebounds a night amongst the three and that’s with 1 guy averaging basically half that output on his own…
 
People talk about Okoro as if he and his (lack of) skills exist in a basketball vacuum. "Hey, he brings energy and hustle"? When you look at it like that, everything starts to sound like a luxury. And sure, all kinds of players have their uses in this sport. In theory.

My problem with starting him and giving him 30mpg is much more about his fit. In a basketball sense, you can't separate Okoro from the people he plays with. His flaws are such that the other guys have to work extra hard to cover for them. And by god, they are doing just that. It's a testament to the cohesion of the team that Isaac's nonexistent offense has been more or less absorbed into the fabric of our overall style of play.

My question is, why are expecting the other players to do this extra work? Why are they being put into worse positions just to keep one guy on the court? I could maybe understand it if Okoro had some truly elite skill indispensable to the team, but he doesn't.

His main "skill" is his high draft position.

I don't dislike him for still being extremely raw - everyone's raw at some point. But raw players shouldn't be getting the kinds of minutes he's getting.
That is horse shit.
Basketball skill isn't limited to shooting and dribbling, those are SHOOTING & BALL skills. There's a reason a guy like Tony Snell sticks around the NBA, he has shooting skills, or why Ramon Sessions had a 15 year career, he had ball skills.
The fact is, Tony Snell kind of makes bad decisions with the ball if the situation calls for anything but the shot, and he's not a plus defender, his motor is non-existent and he doesn't make the right read in the offense.. but he shoots a 3-ball at .395 clip and bounces around the NBA.
Okoro makes smart decisions with the ball quickly. That is a basketball skill, and it's an important one that gets underrated far to often.
He has a high level motor, moves his feet, has great anticipation on defense, stays down on shot fakes, doesn't get himself into bad position and plays to the strength of the team's overall defensive plan of attack.. all basketball skills done at an extremely high level by a 20 year old (21 in 5 days).
He attacks the rim on close-outs well, he plays without the ball in the offense well when asked, makes himself available etc. he's extremely strong on the break. Basketball skills.
Kid plays a very smart game by and large, sometimes gets himself in trouble on his drive, and the refs don't do him any favors when he creates the same kind of contact some of these other guys create, but whatever.
Cavs need another creator, and it's not going to be Ice this year by and large (they could stand to run some pick and roll with him and Mobley/Allen, though, because he does make good decisions off the read, again, a basketball skill). None of this is an issue when Rubio is healthy, but thems the breaks, so the Cavs need a guy who can handle with the second unit and be matched at different times with the starters etc.. Caris LeVert-type etc..
As for covering his lack of shooting on offense, he's covering the lack of defense from both DG and Lauri. It's a two way street, and that's what teammates do, you pick each other up.
I'm convinced Ice's shooting will come. His form is fine, he takes the shots he's supposed to take in the flow of the game and we've seen them fall in the past. When they become consistent, he's going to be an excellent 2-way Guard for us. As it is, he's already a very good player.
 

It’s interesting cause if you go back to when Okoro was hurt people were bummed out… When he was hurt people would suggest part of the reason we were losing was because he was not out there. Our defense was taking a hit. People would mention that the Cavs needed to get him back…
I can honestly say that I don't recall a single post here saying we were losing because Okoro was out. This team is 10-5 this year without Okoro in the lineup and 17-14 with him playing, so there were certainly not many chances to blame our loses on missing Okoro
 
I can honestly say that I don't recall a single post here saying we were losing because Okoro was out. This team is 10-5 this year without Okoro in the lineup and 17-14 with him playing, so there were certainly not many chances to blame our loses on missing Okoro
No that are defense had taken a hit cause he was not out there.
 
Essentially if you go back to about page 200 here you’ll see where people started to get excited about Okoro….

Around page 215 is when he went into health and safety protocols and folks were less than pleased to lose him for a period of time..

Keep in mind he was playing extremely well at the time. Which definitely suggests he has that ability to do so. Putting it together consistently is the next step…

Same with Stevens as well… But I’m willing to be patient and allow that growth (if it even does) to take place— unless of course you can acquire a game changer…
 
Yes. Look at the stats for someone like Trevor Ariza at 19-24 or whatever… Yes I know he’s taller than Okoro (shut up)…but they’re asked to do the same thing— defend the best perimeter guy and knock down shots….

It’s almost as if the Cavs being better than advertised this year has got people f*cked up…

Okoro brings energy and hustle every night…I will let him grow into where he’s deficient….

Am I harder on Mobley ? Yes! Because the areas where I see he is lacking is hustle… Rebound the ball and give me effort there as a front court big…. I’ll live with his limited post up moves and below average shooting as I believe that will develop over tIme and can be worked on… But I need to see that fire/desire within where he is lacking…

Whereas with Okoro I want and need that defensive effort… I’ll live with the lack of a jumper and limited offensive game, inability to create— I think his deficiencies can improve with reps over time….. I don’t see a future all star there— but I see someone that can be an elite defender and someone that can improve in his corner 3’s/slashing abilities….You need these kinda guys to win championships…

I definitely agree that Okoro and Mobley need minutes on the floor to develop. I'll even throw Stevens in there. My biggest criticism of the post-Bulls loss reaction is timing. I think you touch on this well.

It's January. The Cavs haven't reached the All Star Weekend yet. This is exactly when a good franchise plays their young development kids big minutes!

If people are this pissed off about playing Okoro and Stevens big minutes in a playoff series, okay I get it. They make bone-headed mistakes in crunch time. I hope a trade brings some more veteran players for the playoffs and beyond... but in January... this is the time for Okoro to make his mistakes!
 
Am I harder on Mobley ? Yes! Because the areas where I see he is lacking is hustle… Rebound the ball and give me effort there as a front court big…. I’ll live with his limited post up moves and below average shooting as I believe that will develop over tIme and can be worked on… But I need to see that fire/desire within where he is lacking…
Mobley is "lacking" in hustle, effort, and desire? Maybe we should move this slacker ASAP? That way we wouldn't have to have to tolerate his limited post moves and below average shooting, either.

Think we could get a 2nd rounder for him?
 
I don't dislike him for still being extremely raw - everyone's raw at some point. But raw players shouldn't be getting the kinds of minutes he's getting.
He wouldn't be getting the kinds of minutes he's getting if Sexton and Rubio were available. He'd be competing with Cedi for backup minutes to Markkanen.

I agree that his "fit" is not ideal on this team because we lack shot creators, although I've noticed Mobley is getting more aggressive at putting the ball on the floor and muscling his way into the paint for a high percentage shot.

Allen is also starting to take it to the rim from the elbows when he has a smaller man on him.

Okoro needs to work his butt off on hitting corner 3's, which, if successful, will open up those awesome baseline drives off ball fakes as well as spreading the floor for the middle pick-and-roll and big man post-ups.
 
I definitely agree that Okoro and Mobley need minutes on the floor to develop. I'll even throw Stevens in there. My biggest criticism of the post-Bulls loss reaction is timing. I think you touch on this well.

It's January. The Cavs haven't reached the All Star Weekend yet. This is exactly when a good franchise plays their young development kids big minutes!

If people are this pissed off about playing Okoro and Stevens big minutes in a playoff series, okay I get it. They make bone-headed mistakes in crunch time. I hope a trade brings some more veteran players for the playoffs and beyond... but in January... this is the time for Okoro to make his mistakes!

It is all about ballhandling and playmaking. We are really hitting the consequences of Rubio and Sexton going down which we were able to avoid for a time. The remaining guys really aren't up to covering for that.

Now is losing to the Bulls on an 8th game in 13 days with no game in the same city a death knell? Not at all, but it's true that if teams zero in on Garland they can pretty much grind the offense to a halt.

Rubio was a calming influence that played starters minutes and had a Delly like impact on defense and a starting pg effect on offense for the bench. It's very hard to lose that and have your off ball guys still thrive.

We are asking why our 20yo backup sg can't make up for the loss of our starting sg and our backup pg who was playing like a 6MOTY essentially.

Windler has played well enough to get some min with the starters IMO. Okoro should come out early and get some spacing in there. Still, we see what happens when our best point of attack defender isn't in there. Guys go off. When Lauri and Okoro sat the Bulls went on a run and that was basically it.
 
Mobley is "lacking" in hustle, effort, and desire? Maybe we should move this slacker ASAP? That way we wouldn't have to have to tolerate his limited post moves and below average shooting, either.

Think we could get a 2nd rounder for him?
I think we’ll give him a little more time to develop.
 

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