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Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Also, while we're clarifying things.

There's the "he disbanded the pandemic team", to which has been said in the past to be a reorganization. The talent on that team still worked there doing the same job. Here's a good article that does a good job of explaining it thoroughly.

Link
"He disbanded the pandemic response team" which is the terminology I know I've tried to stick to, is accurate.

Your quote of "The talent on that team still worked there doing the same job" is not accurate. You're insinuating that everyone on the team still worked in the White House and was still tasked with the same job responsibilities. This is incorrect, as explained in the article you linked.

VERDICT
The Trump administration disbanded the “pandemic response” team, but some of the team members were reassigned to roles that included pandemic response
 

Wrathe

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"He disbanded the pandemic response team" which is the terminology I know I've tried to stick to, is accurate.

Your quote of "The talent on that team still worked there doing the same job" is not accurate. You're insinuating that everyone on the team still worked in the White House and was still tasked with the same job responsibilities. This is incorrect, as explained in the article you linked.
Yes, my usage of "The Talent" as being the pandemic scientists. Their leadership was let go, yes. Ziemer may have been amazing at his job and a huge talent too, I don't know. I was just trying to delineate between labor and management, so to speak. Working in corporate IT over the years for some big corp's, we've been reorganized so many times and all it really means is a new person to report to.

You're correct in that some of the team, like Ziemer, didn't stay on.
 

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Fox News was far from the only organization downplaying things.

View attachment 3315

Bill De Blasio is the mayor of the biggest city in the United States and the current global coronavirus epicenter. He was encouraging his citizens to 'get out on the town' in early March. No other city in the country has seen anything as bad as NYC. Some experts have said that the death toll could have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent if NYC had acted just a week or two earlier.

So, we can say things like "as leader, a leader who fucked up, he is going to get the lion share of blame," but I see Bill De Blasio, and especially Governor Cuomo, getting very little blame for coronavirus ravaging their state after screwing up their response. It's been quite the opposite, actually. Governor Cuomo has been getting all kinds of praise and media attention for how he's handled the pandemic. Yet, his state has 14k more deaths than the next closest state and ~45% of the entire country's total. New York's officials are getting a fraction of the blame for what's happening in New York that Trump is getting.
If you actually took the time to make that collage, I demand you go kick your own ass. :p
 

KI4MVP

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Is there something bad about encouraging people to go to Chinatown?

I know I've gone out of my way to order takeout from Asian restaurants in the area, because I know just due to stupidity, they're hit the hardest.
How is this any different than crowds of people at the beach.



I'm just saying there was mishandling of virus early a lot of people. Throw me in that list too - I went on a weekend trip apartment hunting for my daughter march 6-8 and ate at a packed restaurant on that trip.

And I'm all for getting takeout from Chinese restaurants because they are unfairly hit harder.
 

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Again, there is a difference between downplaying or soft-peddling a threat, and actively encouraging people to engage in risky behavior, not because there wasn't enough information regarding the threat, but out of political spite.

I watch Fox News and I know exactly what Hannity and others were saying, and how they were saying it, and why they saying it.

To claim that all these things are equal ignores the intent and method behind the competing messages.

As for De Blasio, he should be impeached. And I don't think he is getting that much praise, I have seen a ton of media where he gets justifiable blame.

As for Cuomo...

Here is the difference between Trump and Cuomo, one of those guys had intelligence, lots of it, way back in December and early January about the scope of the threat and did nothing.

Cuomo, like other governors, was reacting as news and information came in. He did not intentionally ignore information and feed the citizens of New York lies and half-truths.

The two are not remotely comparable.
I very much doubt that Cuomo wasn't receiving any intelligence about the threat. It wouldn't make any sense for the governor of New York to not be receiving any intelligence about a possible global pandemic. If he wasn't, that seems like a big screw up. But let's say that he wasn't receiving any intelligence and just had what us commoners had access to. We knew in January that China had quarantined an entire city and restricted things elsewhere in the country. We knew in late February that Italy was locking down some areas of their country. We had posters warning about coronavirus on here in late February/early March I didn't believe them at the time, but if the information was out there for regular people to see then it was out there for the governor of New York to see too.

Democrats in Congress were receiving the same information that republicans in congress were receiving. I believe a lot of people on both sides fell victim to the 'it can't happen here' mentality and it led to the response that we had.
 

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Couple things that stand out for me in this short video.

To everyone claiming that Trump didn’t shut down down travel from China. Crenshaw says the 40,000 that travelled o the US after that are US citizens and green card holders.

Trump requested billions in early February to combat the virus and for a week Nancy didn’t allow a vote on it. Instead they were busy voting on flavored tobacco.

Also, it seems Trump is in a lose lose situation. He’s getting blamed for not shutting the country down earlier yet if he did he would’ve been called a dictator. In no more that a weeks time Trump was being chastised by the media for not issuing a nationwide shutdown to being told by the same media he doesn’t have the authority to reopen states.

Yeah, I watched this, and I am afraid to say I feel bad for having donated to Crenshaw's campaign. Ever since he's been in Washington he has been nothing more than a servile puppet for Trump. You should also watch it, @jking948

Maher did not get "rekt" in this video. Rather the opposite. These "Gets Destroyed" videos are nothing of the sort, and it presumes the viewer is not familiar with the actual facts of the situation. Crenshaw was disingenuous to the extreme.

Here are my notes on this one six minute video:

  1. [On the China Ban] Crenshaw failed to mention that Trump prevented the CDC from testing those repatriated Americans. No quarantine no nothing. Stating that they are Americans does not answer Maher’s question.
  2. Crenshaw completely sidesteps Maher’s statement about the 25th of February wherein his own Task Force asked for a lock-down, and on that day Trump announced only 15 cases were in the US and it would soon be done to nothing. Instead, Crenshaw goes onto a completely unrelated tangent about the White House requesting $2.5 billion and Pelosi tabled it in favor of flavored tobacco. What Crenshaw purposely leaves out is that the Democrats were pushing an $8 billion dollar bill for the CDC, far more than Trump asked for. Crenshaw is straight up lying by saying that Pelosi only concerned herself with flavored tobacco.
  3. Crenshaw criticized Maher for criticizing Trump for being too optimistic “Its his style!” Which is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard an elected official say in the face of gross negligence on the part of the White House in refusing to acknowledge the severity of the crisis and ignoring for months the intelligence gathered on the virus. Crenshaw is so far up Trump’s ass that he can taste the Big Macs Trump eats.
  4. Crenshaw once again lies about the “Fact-Finding” month of February falsely claiming that the CDC was told to monitor flu patient for CV-19! On the contrary, the Trump White House instructed the CDC not to test for CV-19 for economic and political reasons. Crenshaw is lying through his teeth.
  5. Crenshaw contradicts his own statement by saying the Trump Admin was listening to experts when he said “no one” called for a lockdown on 3 March 2020. Trump’s own expert called for a lockdown on 24 February.
  6. Crenshaw says “We have to criticize people based on the facts they knew at the time.” Trump had plentiful intelligence on the virus back in January and did nothing. He saw the explosion of the virus in Italy and Spain and still did nothing. Crenshaw is once again lying that Trump didn’t know enough.
  7. Crenshaw is once agin lying regarding the question about combat and “optimism.” In no way do you want a leader who ignores intelligence for personal reasons and then lies about. Lying is not a trait valued in the military and Crenshaw’s answer strains all credibility. Utterly shameful pandering.
  8. We should blame China instead! Bad answer.
  9. Trump’s exposing hypocrisy. Sure. And he said it with a straight face.


Edit: @Kiddo, thank you for sharing. I may have disagreed with the video, but it is very important that people share.

Please do not take my strident disagreement with Crenshaw as my trying to shut you down or anything like that. We're all, the Directory that is, @jking948 and @CleveRocks et all., very glad to see you posting again!
 

Sebastian

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I very much doubt that Cuomo wasn't receiving any intelligence about the threat. It wouldn't make any sense for the governor of New York to not be receiving any intelligence about a possible global pandemic. If he wasn't, that seems like a big screw up. But let's say that he wasn't receiving any intelligence and just had what us commoners had access to. We knew in January that China had quarantined an entire city and restricted things elsewhere in the country. We knew in late February that Italy was locking down some areas of their country. We had posters warning about coronavirus on here in late February/early March I didn't believe them at the time, but if the information was out there for regular people to see then it was out there for the governor of New York to see too.

Democrats in Congress were receiving the same information that republicans in congress were receiving. I believe a lot of people on both sides fell victim to the 'it can't happen here' mentality and it led to the response that we had.
As a matter of fact, no governors do not get the same intelligence briefings as the POTUS. They receive briefings, in this case, from the CDC, but once again the Administration has the final say in what they are told.

Neither does Congress. Congress, at the pleasure of the POTUS and even then only the Intelligence Committee, receives a summary briefing and the POTUS controls what they are told.

Are you saying that a governor should act on unverified open source intelligence a month prior to the first confirmed case in the US?

---------------------------

What exactly did Cuomo fail to do? What did he do that is comparable to Trump?

Because NY State was taking meaningful precautions back in January in putting together an emergency response plan, prepping hospitals and labs and creating SOPs:

The state Department of Health last week issued guidance to healthcare providers, healthcare facilities, clinical laboratories and local health departments to provide updated information about the outbreak, and ensure the proper protocols are in place if a patient is experiencing symptoms consistent with the coronavirus, had a travel history to Wuhan, China, or had come in contact with an individual who was under investigation for coronavirus.

And this was before the 1st case even popped up in the US. And in that time no where did Cuomo lie about how dangerous it was, nor did he tell people it was handled and that the US won't get.

I am not seeing why you are singling out Cuomo for blame, or part of the blame.

https://abc7ny.com/coronavirus-new-jersey-hackensack-meridian-health-in-the-us/5876222/
 

MediumBaller

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As a matter of fact, no governors do not get the same intelligence briefings as the POTUS. They receive briefings, in this case, from the CDC, but once again the Administration has the final say in what they are told.

Neither does Congress. Congress, at the pleasure of the POTUS and even then only the Intelligence Committee, receives a summary briefing and the POTUS controls what they are told.

Are you saying that a governor should act on unverified open source intelligence a month prior to the first confirmed case in the US?

---------------------------

What exactly did Cuomo fail to do? What did he do that is comparable to Trump?

Because NY State was taking meaningful precautions back in January in putting together an emergency response plan, prepping hospitals and labs and creating SOPs:

The state Department of Health last week issued guidance to healthcare providers, healthcare facilities, clinical laboratories and local health departments to provide updated information about the outbreak, and ensure the proper protocols are in place if a patient is experiencing symptoms consistent with the coronavirus, had a travel history to Wuhan, China, or had come in contact with an individual who was under investigation for coronavirus.

And this was before the 1st case even popped up in the US. And in that time no where did Cuomo lie about how dangerous it was, nor did he tell people it was handled and that the US won't get.

I am not seeing why you are singling out Cuomo for blame, or part of the blame.

https://abc7ny.com/coronavirus-new-jersey-hackensack-meridian-health-in-the-us/5876222/
I didn't say that governors receive the same briefings as the President. I said that I doubt that they weren't receiving any intelligence about the threat. I'm singling out out Cuomo because you said "Well, Trump is POTUS, and as leader, a leader who fucked up, he is going to get the lion share of blame. Simply how that works. If Obummer had done the same thing I can assure you the public would have let him have it."

Cuomo isn't president, but he is the leader of his state. A state that accounts for 45% of the coronavirus deaths in the entire country. NY has half the population of California and has 18x as many deaths. NY has 9 million fewer people than Texas and has 38x as many deaths. Their deaths/million people is nearly twice the next closest state. Why should Trump get all the blame for what's going on in NY? He failed to alert all of the states, yet what's going on in NY isn't happening anywhere else. And their local officials, such as their mayor, weren't taking steps to protect the state in early March. Even acting a week or two earlier than they did would have saved thousands of lives. De Blasio was doing the opposite. Bad intent from Trump or incompetence from NY's leaders, the end result was the same.
 

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I didn't say that governors receive the same briefings as the President. I said that I doubt that they weren't receiving any intelligence about the threat. I'm singling out out Cuomo because you said "Well, Trump is POTUS, and as leader, a leader who fucked up, he is going to get the lion share of blame. Simply how that works. If Obummer had done the same thing I can assure you the public would have let him have it."

Cuomo isn't president, but he is the leader of his state. A state that accounts for 45% of the coronavirus deaths in the entire country. NY has half the population of California and has 18x as many deaths. NY has 9 million fewer people than Texas and has 38x as many deaths. Their deaths/million people is nearly twice the next closest state. Why should Trump get all the blame for what's going on in NY? He failed to alert all of the states, yet what's going on in NY isn't happening anywhere else.
Trump gets the blame because he fucked around for two months and let the virus get a wide purchase in the US.

Federal response is paramount in cases of national emergencies. He gets the blame because he mocked and lied instead of doing what was necessary.

Trump intentionally ignored intelligence, his advisors and placed his own personal economic and political needs first. This hardly needs to be explained.

Cuomo is the polar opposite of Trump. Unlike Trump, Cuomo prepared New York State six weeks before the virus really hit hard. He prepped and planned. He took the lead in announcements. He took responsibility.

He did his job.

Yeah, NY got hit hard for reasons not fully explained. There is an old maxim in that one can be fully prepared and still suffer loses. Moreover, it seems NYC undermined some of Cuomo's actions, so that plays a role too. De Blasio is a fucking moron.

But if you're inferring that Cuomo is responsible for NY's higher number of cases, and ipso facto, he is a bad leader like Trump, then I think that argument is flawed. Unlike Trump Cuomo took this seriously, took steps and took the lead.

------------------------

I am not talking about your posts, not attacking you, as an aside, the mad scramble by the GOP the past two days to relativize things and "both sides" things is disappointing.

Their trying to spread the blame, and re-write history despite a complete record of events being known to everyone, while they work tooth and nail to end lock-downs for the benefit of their corporate donors (through their staged protests) tells me that they still don't give a shit about the people effected by this virus, nor will they ever admit responsibly much less takes steps to correct their actions in the future.

They placed people in danger when they lied to the faces of Fox News viewers, and they are endangering people now trying to end the lock-down in the face of all professional medical advice. The GOP 100% underwrites and supports what Trump did.
 

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@King Stannis

"A 39-year-old woman took Flight 701 from Doha, Qatar, to John F. Kennedy International Airport in late February, the final leg of her trip home to New York City from Iran.

A week later, on March 1, she tested positive for the coronavirus, the first confirmed case in New York City of an outbreak that had already devastated China and parts of Europe. The next day, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, appearing with Mayor Bill de Blasio at a news conference, promised that health investigators would track down every person on the woman’s flight. But no one did.
"

"Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries."

"Normally, New York would get help from Washington in such a time, as it did after Sept. 11. But President Trump in February and early March minimized the coronavirus threat, clashing with his own medical experts and failing to marshal the might of the federal government soon after cases emerged in the United States.

As a result, state and city officials often had to make decisions early on without full assistance from the federal government.

Even so, the initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found."

"Dr. Frieden said that if the state and city had adopted widespread social-distancing measures a week or two earlier, including closing schools, stores and restaurants, then the estimated death toll from the outbreak might have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent."


"From the start, Mr. de Blasio and Mr. Cuomo projected as much concern about panic as they did about the virus.

“We can really keep this thing contained,” Mr. de Blasio said at a news conference about virus preparations in late February.

That tone continued even after the first positive case was announced on March 1.

“Everybody is doing exactly what we need to do,” said Mr. Cuomo, seated with Mr. de Blasio, at a news conference on March 2. “We have been ahead of this from Day 1.”

For both city and state, the initial plan was to trace, isolate and contain each case. Mr. Cuomo promised that they would go further than necessary to find every connection to the woman who arrived from Iran.

“Out of an abundance of caution we will be contacting the people who were on the flight with her from Iran to New York,” he said.

But no one ever did that work. Local officials could only request an investigation from the C.D.C., and the agency did not perform one because they believed at the time she had not been contagious during the flight, officials said. Neither Mr. Cuomo nor Mr. de Blasio publicly mentioned finding the plane passengers again."


"State and city officials believed they were doing everything possible to confront the outbreak, moving from big decision to big decision so quickly that each day, they said, felt like a year. They blamed the spread in New York on the federal government, which they say dragged its feet on testing. For weeks, Mr. Trump brushed aside concernsthat the outbreak would damage the country.

“We have it totally under control,” Mr. Trump said in late January. A month later, he advised Americans to “view this the same as the flu.”

But local officials did have control over closing schools and businesses. While they waited on making a decision, other major cities were moving toward shutdowns."



That NYT article is very damning for both Cuomo and De Blasio, imo. Blame Trump, certainly, but given the things reported in the article, I fail to see why those two aren't deserving of a lot of blame as well. They screwed up.
 

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@King Stannis

"A 39-year-old woman took Flight 701 from Doha, Qatar, to John F. Kennedy International Airport in late February, the final leg of her trip home to New York City from Iran.

A week later, on March 1, she tested positive for the coronavirus, the first confirmed case in New York City of an outbreak that had already devastated China and parts of Europe. The next day, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, appearing with Mayor Bill de Blasio at a news conference, promised that health investigators would track down every person on the woman’s flight. But no one did.
"

"Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries."

"Normally, New York would get help from Washington in such a time, as it did after Sept. 11. But President Trump in February and early March minimized the coronavirus threat, clashing with his own medical experts and failing to marshal the might of the federal government soon after cases emerged in the United States.

As a result, state and city officials often had to make decisions early on without full assistance from the federal government.

Even so, the initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found."

"Dr. Frieden said that if the state and city had adopted widespread social-distancing measures a week or two earlier, including closing schools, stores and restaurants, then the estimated death toll from the outbreak might have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent."


"From the start, Mr. de Blasio and Mr. Cuomo projected as much concern about panic as they did about the virus.

“We can really keep this thing contained,” Mr. de Blasio said at a news conference about virus preparations in late February.

That tone continued even after the first positive case was announced on March 1.

“Everybody is doing exactly what we need to do,” said Mr. Cuomo, seated with Mr. de Blasio, at a news conference on March 2. “We have been ahead of this from Day 1.”

For both city and state, the initial plan was to trace, isolate and contain each case. Mr. Cuomo promised that they would go further than necessary to find every connection to the woman who arrived from Iran.

“Out of an abundance of caution we will be contacting the people who were on the flight with her from Iran to New York,” he said.

But no one ever did that work. Local officials could only request an investigation from the C.D.C., and the agency did not perform one because they believed at the time she had not been contagious during the flight, officials said. Neither Mr. Cuomo nor Mr. de Blasio publicly mentioned finding the plane passengers again."


"State and city officials believed they were doing everything possible to confront the outbreak, moving from big decision to big decision so quickly that each day, they said, felt like a year. They blamed the spread in New York on the federal government, which they say dragged its feet on testing. For weeks, Mr. Trump brushed aside concernsthat the outbreak would damage the country.

“We have it totally under control,” Mr. Trump said in late January. A month later, he advised Americans to “view this the same as the flu.”

But local officials did have control over closing schools and businesses. While they waited on making a decision, other major cities were moving toward shutdowns."



That NYT article is very damning for both Cuomo and De Blasio, imo. Blame Trump, certainly, but given the things reported in the article, I fail to see why those two aren't deserving of a lot of blame as well. They screwed up.
Maybe you're right.

You have shown me new evidence and it seems Cuomo dithered.

So sure, throw some blame on them. Shit, if the trade was Trump gone on the cost of Cuomo and DB, I take that trade everyday.

You know I think I was projecting some of Inslee and Gavin Newsome on those two.

The work of the Cascadia governors has been superb. And Dewine.
 

Sebastian

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Meanwhile, on Fox News right now, is a show called "The Next Revolution."

In it, the host Steve Hilton, is accusing "the Establishment" of intentionally misleading and lying to people to prolong the lock-downs. That "the Establishment" is trying to keep people scared, that they are intentionally withholding testing and that Dr. Fauci is part of the problem.

According to this show, these are the facts of the situation:

  • Tests are not necessary
  • Contact tracing is not necessary
  • That all diseases are bad, but we don't lock people down for those?
  • That Democrats want the shutdown to last as long as possible
  • That Democrats want small businesses to fail
  • Democrats want to increase the government to take away rights
  • Democrats will use testing to shutdown everyone and everything
  • Democrats and the "Globalist Establishment" will target conservatives
  • And that "Establishment Group Think" is an attempt by Democrats to blame Trump for everything
  • Talks to Matt Gaetz and other Trump supporters as "experts" on the crisis
  • Blames a Globalist Conspiracy for the lock-down
  • Blames the Globalist WHO for the spread of "China Virus"
  • Only Trump will protect us from Globalist Establishment oppression

I hardly doubt the NYT, and other media, is running 24/7 propaganda using terrible, unsourced information and posing those talking points as medical fact.

This is completely irresponsible and once again will embolden millions of their viewers to do the absolute wrong thing, and is potentially conditioning them to lash out violently agains their perceived oppressors.

I cannot believe this delusional nonsense is being shown on network TV during primetime hours. WTF?
 

Wrathe

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Meanwhile, on Fox News right now, is a show called "The Next Revolution."

In it, the host Steve Hilton, is accusing "the Establishment" of intentionally misleading and lying to people to prolong the lock-downs. That "the Establishment" is trying to keep people scared, that they are intentionally withholding testing and that Dr. Fauci is part of the problem.

According to this show, these are the facts of the situation:

  • Tests are not necessary
  • Contact tracing is not necessary
  • That all diseases are bad, but we don't lock people down for those?
  • That Democrats want the shutdown to last as long as possible
  • That Democrats want small businesses to fail
  • Democrats want to increase the government to take away rights
  • Democrats will use testing to shutdown everyone and everything
  • Democrats and the "Globalist Establishment" will target conservatives
  • And that "Establishment Group Think" is an attempt by Democrats to blame Trump for everything
  • Talks to Matt Gaetz and other Trump supporters as "experts" on the crisis
  • Blames a Globalist Conspiracy for the lock-down
  • Blames the Globalist WHO for the spread of "China Virus"
  • Only Trump will protect us from Globalist Establishment oppression

I hardly doubt the NYT, and other media, is running 24/7 propaganda using terrible, unsourced information and posing those talking points as medical fact.

This is completely irresponsible and once again will embolden millions of their viewers to do the absolute wrong thing, and is potentially conditioning them to lash out violently agains their perceived oppressors.

I cannot believe this delusional nonsense is being shown on network TV during primetime hours. WTF?
We've been telling you guys for years you Dem's are a bunch of assholes. YEARS! It only took one 30 minute segment on Fox News to make you accept it as fact. THAT is effective journalism.

:doh (31):
 

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The idea that any of the leadership in the US gets a pass on seeing the virus coming is laughable.. I was talking with my team about how we would handle a stay at home order in February.. I don't get better Intel than any of these guys..

That said, the fatal flaw with the contain strategy was

1) Tests were not reliable.. some of the China tests have been reported at 30%.. And early on that was the only source of testing..

2) The idea that you can shut down travel from one country is also laughable.. if I had been in Wuhan and seen enough to be scared of it, I would have flown to Europe, then Canada then driven across the border.. Any experienced traveler knows how to get home no matter what.. And that's exactly what people did..

3) This disease was in human populations in September of 2019.. Wuhan airport handles 2 million people per month.. by the time we saw a problem in January, 8 million people had flown out of Wuhan.. We were already fucked..

IMHO, we will all get this bug.. What matters is can we treat it, and come out the other side with some semblance of sustainable economy..
 

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