John Hart

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NEOLeo

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They were great at drafting and developing power bats in that era (Belle, Thome, Ramirez through Giles, Casey and Sexton). They should’ve been able to deal from strength to offset the pitching needs. But they turned Giles, Casey and Sexton into Rincon, Burba and Wickman. Burba and even Wickman had some good years here but those pieces needed to land an ace and not a mid level starter, a loogy and heart attack inducing closer.
 
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Derek

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They were great at drafting and developing power bats in that era (Belle, Thome, Ramirez through Giles, Casey and Sexton). They should’ve been able to deal from strength to offset the pitching needs. But they turned Giles, Casey and Sexton into Rincon, Burba and Wickman. Burba and even Wickman had some good years here but those pieces needed to land an ace and not a mid level starter, a loogie and heart attack inducing closer.
Burba is underrated. He was really good for us.
 
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Burba is underrated. He was really good for us.
He was and I loved Burba. But Casey was a pretty highly thought of prospect (an advanced college hitter who was moving through the system quickly at a younger than average age). Casey went on to make the all star team in his first full season (eventually making two more) and was a career .300 hitter with 15-20 HR power. Maybe that’s fair for Burba, but when added to the other pieces I just always felt the Tribe didn’t do a good enough job turning their abundance of bats into top end arms.
 

Derek

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He was and I loved Burba. But Casey was a pretty highly thought of prospect (an advanced college hitter who was moving through the system quickly at a younger than average age). Casey went on to make the all star team in his first full season (eventually making two more) and was a career .300 hitter with 15-20 HR power. Maybe that’s fair for Burba, but when added to the other pieces I just always felt the Tribe didn’t do a good enough job turning their abundance of bats into top end arms.
Still, Casey only really had three good years in his career, and Burba gave us three good year in a row. That one worked out fine. I think the Sexson one did, too. Sexson was super overrated.

The Giles trade kills me though.
 

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Still, Casey only really had three good years in his career, and Burba gave us three good year in a row. That one worked out fine. I think the Sexson one did, too. Sexson was super overrated.

The Giles trade kills me though.
I don't know man, Casey had a pretty solid 7 year run with the Reds. From '99 (first full season after the trade) through '05 he averaged 140 games, .310 BA, 17 HR and 82 RBI (and that included an injury plagued/shortened '02 when he batted in the two-sixties). His OPS. ranged from the high .700's to the mid .900's. Again, it's not to discredit Burba or to say that Casey was a great player, but it's more about getting value for an asset. Casey was a 2nd round pick just a few years before the trade, and had advanced through the system quickly while hitting everywhere as an under-aged prospect. At the time, he had a lot of trade value. And if coupled with others, should have brought back a marquee player. (As an aside, it reminds me of the Ubaldo Jimenez trade. I don't judge the trade based on Drew Pomeranz and Alex White not turning into good players. I judge it based on the fact that Pomeranz and White had more value as assets and should have brought back a greater return than Jimenez. Whether or not they developed is irrelevant because the deal was made when they were prospects and at the time they were thought to have a high probability of reaching their potential).

And Richie Sexson, although probably overrated, put up a 30 HR, 100+ RBI season *before* getting traded in 2000. He went on to put up 29+ HR and 100+ RBI in 6 of the next 7 seasons (around an injury in '04), including two 45 HR seasons.

For the sake of this conversation, Giles was traded in '99. That's three straight years so it's not like these guys were so far spread out that they all weren't on the radar at the same time.
 

Derek

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I don't know man, Casey had a pretty solid 7 year run with the Reds. From '99 (first full season after the trade) through '05 he averaged 140 games, .310 BA, 17 HR and 82 RBI (and that included an injury plagued/shortened '02 when he batted in the two-sixties). His OPS. ranged from the high .700's to the mid .900's. Again, it's not to discredit Burba or to say that Casey was a great player, but it's more about getting value for an asset. Casey was a 2nd round pick just a few years before the trade, and had advanced through the system quickly while hitting everywhere as an under-aged prospect. At the time, he had a lot of trade value. And if coupled with others, should have brought back a marquee player. (As an aside, it reminds me of the Ubaldo Jimenez trade. I don't judge the trade based on Drew Pomeranz and Alex White not turning into good players. I judge it based on the fact that Pomeranz and White had more value as assets and should have brought back a greater return than Jimenez. Whether or not they developed is irrelevant because the deal was made when they were prospects and at the time they were thought to have a high probability of reaching their potential).

And Richie Sexson, although probably overrated, put up a 30 HR, 100+ RBI season *before* getting traded in 2000. He went on to put up 29+ HR and 100+ RBI in 6 of the next 7 seasons (around an injury in '04), including two 45 HR seasons.

For the sake of this conversation, Giles was traded in '99. That's three straight years so it's not like these guys were so far spread out that they all weren't on the radar at the same time.
Those offensive numbers just weren't that impressive considering the era. In Sexson's "breakout" '99 season where he hit 31 HR, he was worth just 0.4 WAR and had a wRC+ of 98, which means he was really just a league-average hitter with a terrible glove.

Casey was only good in '99, '00, and '04. He was mediocre at best and often worse in his other years.
 

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Those offensive numbers just weren't that impressive considering the era. In Sexson's "breakout" '99 season where he hit 31 HR, he was worth just 0.4 WAR and had a wRC+ of 98, which means he was really just a league-average hitter with a terrible glove.

Casey was only good in '99, '00, and '04. He was mediocre at best and often worse in his other years.
Was Casey not a highly thought of hitting prospect in ‘98? One who, if paired with Giles and Sexton, could’ve brought back something more than a 31 year old middle of the rotation pitcher who put up the best years of his career and still only topped out at a 3.7 WAR (plus a replacement level loogy and a mediocre closer)? I say yes. One Ace (or even a young #2) would’ve outclassed that haul (and again, I loved Burba).
 

Derek

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Was Casey not a highly thought of hitting prospect in ‘98? One who, if paired with Giles and Sexton, could’ve brought back something more than a 31 year old middle of the rotation pitcher who put up the best years of his career and still only topped out at a 3.7 WAR (plus a replacement level loogy and a mediocre closer)? I say yes. One Ace (or even a young #2) would’ve outclassed that haul (and again, I loved Burba).
I guess I don't agree that Burba was just a MOR pitcher at the time, and Casey wasn't paired with the other two, so that's irrelevant. Looking at it as a singular trade doesn't make any sense.

Again, I think the return for Casey was good, the return for Sexson was ok, and the return for Giles was horrendous.
 

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I guess I don't agree that Burba was just a MOR pitcher at the time, and Casey wasn't paired with the other two, so that's irrelevant. Looking at it as a singular trade doesn't make any sense.

Again, I think the return for Casey was good, the return for Sexson was ok, and the return for Giles was horrendous.
See, I think it does make sense to look at the collection of assets that the Tribe had available to deal in ‘98. This was a team coming off appearing in 2 of the last 3 World Series and had just added Kenny Lofton to an OF also featuring David Justice and Manny Ramirez with Thome at 1B. Those prospect bats clearly had nowhere to play. And by all accounts the Tribe was one front line starter away. Instead of making a major move in ‘98 they sold their assets off in pieces and didn’t get full value. Some valuable parts, sure. But not the front line starter they needed.
 

Derek

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See, I think it does make sense to look at the collection of assets that the Tribe had available to deal in ‘98. This was a team coming off appearing in 2 of the last 3 World Series and had just added Kenny Lofton to an OF also featuring David Justice and Manny Ramirez with Thome at 1B. Those prospect bats clearly had nowhere to play. And by all accounts the Tribe was one front line starter away. Instead of making a major move in ‘98 they sold their assets off in pieces and didn’t get full value. Some valuable parts, sure. But not the front line starter they needed.
I think when you try to lump them all together, you miss out on a lot of the context of the situation.

My only regret from those deals is that I wish they had kept Giles.
 

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I don't know man, Casey had a pretty solid 7 year run with the Reds. From '99 (first full season after the trade) through '05 he averaged 140 games, .310 BA, 17 HR and 82 RBI (and that included an injury plagued/shortened '02 when he batted in the two-sixties). His OPS. ranged from the high .700's to the mid .900's. Again, it's not to discredit Burba or to say that Casey was a great player, but it's more about getting value for an asset. Casey was a 2nd round pick just a few years before the trade, and had advanced through the system quickly while hitting everywhere as an under-aged prospect. At the time, he had a lot of trade value. And if coupled with others, should have brought back a marquee player. (As an aside, it reminds me of the Ubaldo Jimenez trade. I don't judge the trade based on Drew Pomeranz and Alex White not turning into good players. I judge it based on the fact that Pomeranz and White had more value as assets and should have brought back a greater return than Jimenez. Whether or not they developed is irrelevant because the deal was made when they were prospects and at the time they were thought to have a high probability of reaching their potential).

And Richie Sexson, although probably overrated, put up a 30 HR, 100+ RBI season *before* getting traded in 2000. He went on to put up 29+ HR and 100+ RBI in 6 of the next 7 seasons (around an injury in '04), including two 45 HR seasons.

For the sake of this conversation, Giles was traded in '99. That's three straight years so it's not like these guys were so far spread out that they all weren't on the radar at the same time.
Making an adjustment for the era, Casey was a good player(no knock), but not all that much more.
 

col63onel

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Just found this thread.

Hart has to get high marks. The Indians were the Browns but for 30 years. Other than the occasional middling finish, they were awful in the 60s, 70s and 80s. To go from decades of futility to perennial World Series contenders in such a short time is remarkable.

Now, he also inherited a team that an owner willing to spend, plus a fan base that sold out the ballpark due to some factors beyond team. It might be more likely he was a solid GM whose best drafts matched up with a good ownership run.
 

Obscured By Clouds

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Just found this thread.

Hart has to get high marks. The Indians were the Browns but for 30 years. Other than the occasional middling finish, they were awful in the 60s, 70s and 80s. To go from decades of futility to perennial World Series contenders in such a short time is remarkable.

Now, he also inherited a team that an owner willing to spend, plus a fan base that sold out the ballpark due to some factors beyond team. It might be more likely he was a solid GM whose best drafts matched up with a good ownership run.
Hart inherited a stocked farm system and Jacobs never spent much money on player salary.
 

col63onel

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