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Kyrie Irving

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Rubio is good. His lack of a jumper really puts a cap on him though. When you're a ball handler you at least need to be a threat to score, and if you're playing off a two guys who like to post (Wiggins and Towns) you either need a jumper or be able to finish off the dribble.

And that's why he blows in my book. If you can't find at least one way to score at that position, I could care less what else you do, 95% of the time I am going to say you suck at your position.

If a point guard can't score, he's useless IMO. The position is called "point guard" for a reason. Rubio plays the position of zero guard.
 
It's not just that he's a horrible shooter from outside, it's that he's horrible shooting the ball from any location on the floor. It's not ideal, but you could operate a very good spread pick and roll if he was a good finisher and the defense had to respect both his drive and pass. As it is though, the book has been out for a long time on how to defend him. Go under every screen, always play the pass, and if he does drive to score then don't foul him and just make him take the shot over a contest. Scoring efficiently is still the single most valuable thing on offense imo (and ideally the ability to do it in multiple ways), and all of his pluses as a player don't take away from the fact that he is one of the least efficient scorers in nba history.
 
It's not just that he's a horrible shooter from outside, it's that he's horrible shooting the ball from any location on the floor. It's not ideal, but you could operate a very good spread pick and roll if he was a good finisher and the defense had to respect both his drive and pass. As it is though, the book has been out for a long time on how to defend him. Go under every screen, always play the pass, and if he does drive to score then don't foul him and just make him take the shot over a contest. Scoring efficiently is still the single most valuable thing on offense imo (and ideally the ability to do it in multiple ways), and all of his pluses as a player don't take away from the fact that he is one of the least efficient scorers in nba history.
Right, Rubio is incapable of putting the ball in the basket in any way. Whereas with a player like Rondo, who I mentioned earlier, was at least a good finisher around the basket. He was SOME sort of a threat to actually score the ball despite not being able to shoot. Their difference in efficiency reflect this.

Rubio is just incapable of putting the ball in the basket and it cripples an offense having a backcourt player like that.
 
I don't dislike Rubio for the record, why would I? :chuckle: Minny is useless and there's like zero reason to dislike him. Hell, he said some really nice things about Kyrie. If anything I'm frustrated he couldn't at least develop a respectable jumper.

I'll say this, his passing is elite though. I can't refute that at all. I'm talking great. Maybe the best gifted passer at his position. He should average 10 a game, he's that gifted, but his inability to use his scoring (which he doesn't have) to make a defense counter doesn't exist.

I've never been one to judge a point guard strictly on assists and I think its always been an overrated way to look at a point guard strictly. But yes, Rubio is a good defender, but it's not the impact that makes a huge difference.
 
You
The guy is a career 35% shooter from the floor. That's awful. In this day of age, if you're not at least some threat to score the ball as a guard, not even in a large volume, but in some way, then have no business being a starter in the league. And he doesn't belong as one. So yes, as a starting point guard he is garbage.

I think he's a great passer. Even his defense is overrated IMO. He's great at playing passing lanes that results in a lot of steals, which does factor into RPM by the way, which again makes the stat skewed. Does his defense make a significant enough of a difference to make up for the fact he's a 100% liability on offense? No.

Does that sound like someone that's good. David, I think you factor defense WAY too much frankly in your rankings too.

There's no defensive point guard on the planet that's good enough to stop guys like CP3, Curry, Kyrie, etc...

EDIT: Speaking of DRPM; why is it that point guards have the lowest plus-minus? Because I think the answer is obvious, they make the least amount of impact defensively on the floor. The numbers back it up, go look at it.

This is not same as evaluating centers/power forwards, or even wing players, which IMO have a much greater impact defensively than a point guard can ever have. Another reason why I think its irrelevant when comparing point guards. Hell, as long he's an adequate defender, that's all that matters.

So think about it Kevin Love is a 2.11 plus defender. That's better than every point guard in the league other than Chris Paul. And ranks 12th in the stat among power forwards.

Also given its based on number of points allowed per possession. Obviously Rubio's ability to get steals plays part of this equation, but also the unit he plays with too, given we can take away point guards, in no way shape and form, can control everyone who scores on the court. Is his big men good defenders, do they protect the rim well? Etc, etc... I rather evaluate DRPM more with big men, since they themselves clearly do impact the game a lot more defensively, regardless who is on the court with them most the time.

So Rubio is second in DRPM at his position? Who cares, it's pretty meaningless when we're evaluating value on that side of the court, which isn't that much. Being a 1.89 plus defender is not going to impact your team much on wins and losses.
You literally gave one stat about one facet of his game and asked does that sound like a good player

Yes, if you ignore literally everything else about the gamr of basketball, it's a bad player.

Unfortunately that was the entire Premise of my post and you just restated it.

What is he a plus six on off on a sub 500 team?

Top five and three in ancillary stats. Ranked in steals and opponent fg percentage.

I understand you like scoring. It's a tired point
 
I don't dislike Rubio for the record, why would I? :chuckle: Minny is useless and there's like zero reason to dislike him. Hell, he said some really nice things about Kyrie. If anything I'm frustrated he couldn't at least develop a respectable jumper.

I'll say this, his passing is elite though. I can't refute that at all. I'm talking great. Maybe the best gifted passer at his position. He should average 10 a game, he's that gifted, but his inability to use his scoring (which he doesn't have) to make a defense counter doesn't exist.

I've never been one to judge a point guard strictly on assists and I think its always been an overrated way to look at a point guard strictly. But yes, Rubio is a good defender, but it's not the impact that makes a huge difference.
You don't like him because he's the antithesis of Kyrie Irving, and you're remarkably biased.

You also think Iverson was the greatest thing ever and he sucked on defense and was wildly inefficient and never won anything

Saying strictly judging on assists is intellectually dishonest.

Defense, rebounds, assist, team play everything but scoring. reread my post.
 
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How in god's name is this thread still a shit show?

And here I thought absence would make the heart grow fonder...
 
You don't like him because he's the antithesis of Kyrie Irving, and you're remarkably biased

Saying strictly judging on assists is intellectually dishonest.

Defense, rebounds, assist, team play everything but scoring. reread my post.

I don't like him because he's a liability, a big one, where you can't afford to be one. We'll just agree to disagree and go watch the Tribe hopefully win.

I would never want Rubio as my starter. Ever. Off the bench? Sure. Starter? Hell no.

It has nothing to do with Kyrie. Even comparing Rubio to Kyrie is laughable. There's not a single person that would take Rubio over Kyrie; including Rubio himself.

As much as I don't like Lowry, even thinking Rubio is anywhere as good as him would be laughable. Or Wall. Two guys I actually don't like.

I got nothing against Rubio at all. I just don't want a point guard that has the ball in his hands, and can't score at all. Minny blows. But if they were ever good with Rubio starting, he would be 100% their biggest liability by far.
 
I don't like him because he's a liability, a big one, where you can't afford to be one. We'll just agree to disagree and go watch the Tribe hopefully win.

I would never want Rubio as my starter. Ever. Off the bench? Sure. Starter? Hell no.

It has nothing to do with Kyrie. Even comparing Rubio to Kyrie is laughable. There's not a single person that would take Rubio over Kyrie; including Rubio himself.

As much as I don't like Lowry, even thinking Rubio is anywhere as good as him would be laughable. Or Wall. Two guys I actually don't like.

I got nothing against Rubio at all. I just don't want a point guard that has the ball in his hands, and can't score at all. Minny blows. But if they were ever good with Rubio starting, he would be 100% their biggest liability by far.
Dude who the fuck compared the two?

Listen I've called you out on your takes before, but just humor me.

Do you not understand that with three other scorers who are quesyonable on defense and young, a vet facilitator with defense is sort of important?

If Rubio is a liability on offense, can you sit here and say with a straight face kyrie isn't a liability on d?
 
How in god's name is this thread still a shit show?

And here I thought absence would make the heart grow fonder...
Because the cycle continues.

I ask how people call Rubio garbage, who outside of this board is simply and easily regarded as a good player, and it gets turned into a kyrie debate immediately, and then people pile on against an argument that was never made in the first place, because they feel somehow their bro was bismurched.
 
You

You literally gave one stat about one facet of his game and asked does that sound like a good player

Yes, if you ignore literally everything else about the gamr of basketball, it's a bad player.

Unfortunately that was the entire Premise of my post and you just restated it.

What is he a plus six on off on a sub 500 team?

Top five and three in ancillary stats. Ranked in steals and opponent fg percentage.

I understand you like scoring. It's a tired point
It's a pretty important part of the game though, especially for a backcourt player. And when you are historically bad at scoring it is going to put a shadow over anything else you do well.

You can hide a bad defender, you can get rebounds elsewhere, but you cannot have a hopeless scorer like Rubio on the floor for major minutes right now (like most starting PGs would be) if you want to be a serious contending team.

Even a guy like Tony Allen can at least slash and finish.

He doesn't need to be an elite scorer, or even a good one, but if you want to win a championship, your starting backcourt players need to be some sort of threat to put the ball in the basket. Until he adds something like this to his game, Rubio is always going to be below the majority of starting PGs in this league, regardless of how well he does other things.
 
It's a pretty important part of the game though, especially for a backcourt player. And when you are historically bad at scoring it is going to put a shadow over anything else you do well.

You can hide a bad defender, you can get rebounds elsewhere, but you cannot have a hopeless scorer like Rubio on the floor for major minutes right now (like most starting PGs would be) if you want to be a serious contending team.

Even a guy like Tony Allen can at least slash and finish.

He doesn't need to be an elite scorer, or even a good one, but if you want to win a championship, your starting backcourt players need to be some sort of threat to put the ball in the basket. Until he adds something like this to his game, Rubio is always going to be below the majority of starting PGs in this league, regardless of how well he does other things.
If that's you opinion, sure, but other fans simply don't view him as below a majority of the league's pg.

Scoring can also be made up by other players in the game, especially and directly by a player that sets them up with open shots.

It's hard to understand this sentiment.

Defense also makes up points. Holding your opponent to remarkably under their average, and steals that lead to fast breaks, equal points.

Rebounds in the hand of your pg that lead to fast breaks lead to the most efficient scoring opportunities in the game.

A live ball forced turnover is worth four points.

An assisted shot is worth roughly .5 times more than an unassisted one by fg%.

Can you see how the other components of the game do in fact add up to put him as a net positive, which by any statistic, he is?

These arguments are pretty anecdotal. Will someone post something more than"they feel like shooting is important?"
 
Because the cycle continues.

I ask how people call Rubio garbage, who outside of this board is simply and easily regarded as a good player, and it gets turned into a kyrie debate immediately, and then people pile on against an argument that was never made in the first place, because they feel somehow their bro was bismurched.

Just to be clear, I'm assuming the comments to which you refer were on a thread titled 'Kyrie Irving?'

Yeah, that's, like, TOOOOTALLY outta left field for folks to 'turn it into a Kyrie debate'...

As for how folks regard Rubio (who came into the NBA the same year as Ky, coincidentally -- so, um, yeah, that would be another reason that comparisons are pretty much expected...) beyond this board, let's just say that my impression of fans' and pundits' impressions of Rubio are that he is a 'limited' player, to put it euphemistically.
 
Just to be clear, I'm assuming the comments to which you refer were on a thread titled 'Kyrie Irving?'

Yeah, that's, like, TOOOOTALLY outta left field for folks to 'turn it into a Kyrie debate'...

If

As for how folks regard Rubio (who came into the NBA the same year as Ky, coincidentally -- so, um, yeah, that would be another reason that comparisons are pretty much expected...) beyond this board, let's just say that my impression of fans' and pundits' impressions of Rubio are that he is a 'limited' player, to put it euphemistically.
If you read the post, it asked how people thought he was garbage.

Where in that question is kyrie mentioned?

Did you read the post or are you one of the people that are turning the thread into shit, which is what you're complaining about?
 
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