Kyrie Irving

[We'reAllKyrieWitnesses]

If you read the post, it asked how people thought he was garbage.

Where in that question is kyrie mentioned?

Did you read the post or are you one of the people that are turning the thread into shit, which is what you're complaining about?

I'd say anyone who's turning a thread called 'Kyrie Irving' on RCF into a discussion of Ricky Rubio is driving it straight toward Shitsville...

 

[Scholar]

If you read the post, it asked how people thought he was garbage.

Where in that question is kyrie mentioned?

Did you read the post or are you one of the people that are turning the thread into shit, which is what you're complaining about?

If Kyrie is NOT being mentioned, then the topic really doesn't need to be discussed here. David, you are pulling a Jon here. Post after post about something that is not topic relevant. Please stop. It is very tiring to read all this crap about Korver, +/-, Rubio. I want to hear about Kyrie Irving.

Btw, the Rubio vs Kyrie topic has been discussed in here during their rookie years ad nauseum. A certain poster tried to push assists as virtually the only stat that was important to determining who was the better pg. I am sure the lot of you can figure out who that poster was.

Anyways, David, just consider that it is like one is under siege in here with all the comparisons to other PG's that are not worth even being mentioned in the sentence as Mr Irving. That doesn't even get into the multiple campaigns to get him traded that I have endured in here and on other threads devoted to that topic.

 

[Ohio]

If that's you opinion, sure, but other fans simply don't view him as below a majority of the league's pg.

They don't?

Scoring can also be made up by other players in the game, especially and directly by a player that sets them up with open shots.

It's hard to understand this sentiment.

Nobody can make up for a backcourt player that is hopeless of putting the ball in the basket. Nobody.

This would especially be exposed come playoff time if he ever makes the playoffs and ever plays major minutes in the playoffs.

When you are so bad at something so important it trumps your other abilities.

If Rubio never gets any better offensively, no team with him on it is ever going to come close to winning a Championship with him playing major minutes. His assists, lack of turnovers, defense (even though he nor anyone can stop the best PGs in this league, and all the contenders lately have had an elite PG), rebounding all together is not enough to make up for being a complete non-threat to put the ball in the basket.

Now if he had a lesser role, say off the bench, playing 15 maybe 20 MPG, that changes things.

But as a major piece, playing major minutes, like he is now? It's not going to happen.

I know you want more, but this is a simple matter.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I could not be more confident in my position. Having Rubio on the floor for major minutes in the playoffs would just be so fucking brutal on offense.

I'm having nightmares imagining him in place of Curry, Kyrie, Westbrook, Paul, etc and teams completely ignoring him on offense while doubling the best offensive player. Yikes.

That is not a player among the average at his position.

 

[David.]

They don't?


Nobody can make up for a backcourt player that is hopeless of putting the ball in the basket. Nobody.

This would especially be exposed come playoff time if he ever makes the playoffs and ever plays major minutes in the playoffs.

When you are so bad at something so important it trumps your other abilities.

If Rubio never gets any better offensively, no team with him on it is ever going to come close to winning a Championship with him playing major minutes. His assists, lack of turnovers, defense (even though he nor anyone can stop the best PGs in this league, and all the contenders lately have had an elite PG), rebounding all together is not enough to make up for being a complete non-threat to put the ball in the basket.

Now if he had a lesser role, say off the bench, playing 15 maybe 20 MPG, that changes things.

But as a major piece, playing major minutes, like he is now? It's not going to happen.

I know you want more, but this is a simple matter.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I could not be more confident in my position. Having Rubio on the floor for major minutes in the playoffs would just be so fucking brutal on offense.

I'm having nightmares imagining him in place of Curry, Kyrie, Westbrook, Paul, etc and teams completely ignoring him on offense while doubling the best offensive player. Yikes.

That is not a player among the average at his position.

@Scholar I wasn't the one who brought him up, so no, I'm not "pulling a Jon". Godfather brought him up. Simon brought up korver. Gouri then pressed on him.

If anyone ever brings up anyone in any thread, everyone will now ignore the comment, unless it furthers the popular opinion, and the comment will be accepted as fact, and the board will get smarter and more informed.

This will be my last post on a player that someone else introduced into this thread, which is important because the board is so active during the offseason.

He shot 33% from three and had a ts of .530 which is practically league average (.550). He shot 43% on corner threes last year. Good for 129/100 possessions.

He also was part of the 12th best five man lineup of the league, 10th best if they're non duplicative by team. 15th pg in PER, 12th in Hollinger value added and estimated wins added at 8 (30 win team), and defense doesnt show in these stats.

5th in rpm, 12th in Orpm. 2nd in drpm. 5th in RPM wins added at 11(30 win team).

2nd in assist ratio and he's nowhere near 2nd in usage. Tied for 1st in steal percentage and 2nd in offensive fouls drawn.

Plus 8 on a30 win team is well above average. The wolves are 118-162 with him and 28-82 without him since drafting him.

^ 2014/15

Search him on Reddit @Rob literally any thread you'll find is positive about him, and knocking people that talk shit as people as people who aren't really watching.


He excels at literally everything except volume scoring, which is unimportant because there are very efficient offensive players around him he consistently sets up, and has risen into being average efficiency wise, and his team is top third of the NBA with him on court.

 

[Jordan]

@Scholar I wasn't the one who brought him up, so no, I'm not "pulling a Jon". Godfather brought him up. Simon brought up korver. Gouri then pressed on him.

If anyone ever brings up anyone in any thread, everyone will now ignore the comment, unless it furthers the popular opinion, and the comment will be accepted as fact, and the board will get smarter and more informed.

This will be my last post on a player that someone else introduced into this thread, which is important because the board is so active during the offseason.

He shot 33% from three and had a ts of .530 which is practically league average (.550). He shot 43% on corner threes last year. Good for 129/100 possessions.

He also was part of the 12th best five man lineup of the league, 10th best if they're non duplicative by team. 15th pg in PER, 12th in Hollinger value added and estimated wins added at 8 (30 win team), and defense doesnt show in these stats.

5th in rpm, 12th in Orpm. 2nd in drpm. 5th in RPM wins added at 11(30 win team).

2nd in assist ratio and he's nowhere near 2nd in usage. Tied for 1st in steal percentage and 2nd in offensive fouls drawn.

Plus 8 on a30 win team is well above average. The wolves are 118-162 with him and 28-82 without him since drafting him.

^ 2014/15

Search him on Reddit @Rob literally any thread you'll find is positive about him, and knocking people that talk shit as people as people who aren't really watching.


He excels at literally everything except volume scoring, which is unimportant because there are very efficient offensive players around him he consistently sets up, and has risen into being average efficiency wise, and his team is top third of the NBA with him on court.

I tend to agree with you on Rubio, Dave. Would I want him on the Cavs instead of Kyrie? No, definitely not. But he's absolutely a good NBA PG.

Personally, I think RPM overvalues his performance because of his role on the team. With that said, however, he's still a top-15 NBA PG, at least on the right team. Minny, the last two years, has not been the right team. But if you put him on a team with one or two stars and a bunch of shooters, I think Rubio could be really fucking good. I.E., he would make the Celtics a hell of a lot more scary than they are with IT as the starting PG.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

With that said, however, he's still a top-15 NBA PG, at least on the right team. Minny, the last two years, has not been the right team. But if you put him on a team with one or two stars and a bunch of shooters, I think Rubio could be really fucking good.

You raise a key issue here. You may play much better than average on your team, while a being worse than average on another. So what does it really mean to say someone is better/worse than average?

TT is a good player. Given his role on this team, he's performing that role better than could an "average" PF. But put him on a team that needs shooting from that position, and he's going to be worse than average.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I love the way Boogie kind of smiles "yeah, you got me there", when Rubio makes him look like a chump.

 

[David.]

I love the way Boogie kind of smiles "yeah, you got me there", when Rubio makes him look like a chump.

I didn't even notice until I read comments but look at the other guy swiping

 

[Jordan]

You raise a key issue here. You may play much better than average on your team, while a being worse than average on another. So what does it really mean to say someone is better/worse than average?

TT is a good player. Given his role on this team, he's performing that role better than could an "average" PF. But put him on a team that needs shooting from that position, and he's going to be worse than average.

Oh it's a total key point. I think a lot of these "rankings" take fit as a constant and move on. Where, in reality, fit isn't a constant. There are players, though, that do have the ability to be equally successful no matter the fit. On the high end of that spectrum is LeBron, and on the middle-tier are guys like Delly, Korver, etc.

For most players, however, fit is very important. We see that in Cleveland with TT, JR, RJ, etc. Golden State had it with certain guys, too, including Draymond. Spurs definitely are and have been a case (especially at the backup PG and SG/SF spot). The whole SSOL Suns team was an extreme example.

 

[David.]

I tend to agree with you on Rubio, Dave. Would I want him on the Cavs instead of Kyrie? No, definitely not. But he's absolutely a good NBA PG.

Personally, I think RPM overvalues his performance because of his role on the team. With that said, however, he's still a top-15 NBA PG, at least on the right team. Minny, the last two years, has not been the right team. But if you put him on a team with one or two stars and a bunch of shooters, I think Rubio could be really fucking good. I.E., he would make the Celtics a hell of a lot more scary than they are with IT as the starting PG.

Absolutely.

That's what it boils down to.

Wall is another example. He's actually taking an even worse team to a top five plus minus in Washington.

Neither can be relied on for scoring really, they would be successful on teams comprised differently than us.

Although, him on a team of all our shooters and lebron cutting and without shump being necessary would be fun

 

[Jordan]

Absolutely.

That's what it boils down to.

Wall is another example. He's actually taking an even worse team to a top five plus minus in Washington.

Neither can be relied on for scoring really, they would be successful on teams comprised differently than us.

Although, him on a team of all our shooters and lebron cutting and without shump being necessary would be fun

Rubio >>>>>>> Shump. It's not even close.

But yeah, that's why I point to Boston as a team where Rubio would excel. I also think he could be really good in Dallas. Frankly, it's why he and Love worked so well together. Rubio just has to be the fifth scoring option when he's out on the floor and he'll be a net positive.

The issue the past two years is that Wiggins hasn't developed as a scorer, LaVine only became a legit scorer the second half of 2015-16, KAT - for as superhuman as he is - isn't a great pick-and-roll player yet, and they lack true three-point threats. These factors make Rubio look A LOT worse than he actually is.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Because the cycle continues.

I ask how people call Rubio garbage, who outside of this board is simply and easily regarded as a good player, and it gets turned into a kyrie debate immediately, and then people pile on against an argument that was never made in the first place, because they feel somehow their bro was bismurched.

Shocking that posts in the Kyrie Irving thread would lead to a Kyrie Irving debate.

 

[David.]

Rubio >>>>>>> Shump. It's not even close.

But yeah, that's why I point to Boston as a team where Rubio would excel. I also think he could be really good in Dallas. Frankly, it's why he and Love worked so well together. Rubio just has to be the fifth scoring option when he's out on the floor and he'll be a net positive.

The issue the past two years is that Wiggins hasn't developed as a scorer, LaVine only became a legit scorer the second half of 2015-16, KAT - for as superhuman as he is - isn't a great pick-and-roll player yet, and they lack true three-point threats. These factors make Rubio look A LOT worse than he actually is.

They all run the floor well though. I'd be shocked if they weren't a fast break team for a significant amount of their points.

The problem, I feel, is more their bench.

It now is officially off topic, we can move this if necessary

 

[gourimoko]

@David. to @godfather 's (and others') point; the problem with Rubio is the fact that he can't shoot.

His true-shooting percentage doesn't speak to his shooting ability; just his ability to score efficiently. On only 7.7 FGA/G with 4.1 FTA, his TS% is skewed (if we mistakenly assume TS% measures scoring ability rather than efficiency).

His shooting percentages at various ranges tell the story of a guy who simply lacks the ability to score. And, as others have pointed out, this leads to teams having the ability to sag off him - because no matter what, Rubio is not a threat to score on his own.

To give you an idea of how this plays out in actual games over the regular season; Rubio is left "open" on 33.8% of all his attempts, and he's scoring with an eFG of 37.9% (33.3% from 2, 29.6% from 3). Those are career highs (IIRC).

By contrast, 28.5% of all his attempts are "Wide Open," and he's scoring with an eFG of 52.4% (43.1@2p/35.6@3p); so what we're seeing is someone who simply cannot score if they're not completely wide open (no defender within 6ft).

But what's amazing is the fact that he's left open/wide-open on 4.8 FGA/G, that's roughly two out of three attempts!

This means teams are NOT guarding Rubio on the ball, at all. He's left to operate, without coverage, with no defender within 4 feet of him; likely for a majority of the possessions of his recorded usage.

Think about that...

That's why I say Ricky Rubio should not be considered an elite PG (or even a starter-quality player). Is he "good," sure, I guess... But I agree with @godfather and @jking948 in that, I don't think he has a role as a starter in the NBA. Not on any team with championship aspirations.

p.s.
This is also part of my criticism of folks using RPM/RAPM to assert Rubio is a Top-10 PG and somehow better than Irving. It's a closed-minded evaluation that, I think, steams from looking at (incomplete) statistics, and trying to derive an evaluation based on trusting the favorite stat of the day.

Remember when people used to do this with PER?

 

[David.]

@David. to @godfather 's (and others') point; the problem with Rubio is the fact that he can't shoot.

His true-shooting percentage doesn't speak to his shooting ability; just his ability to score efficiently. On only 7.7 FGA/G with 4.1 FTA, his TS% is skewed (if we mistakenly assume TS% measures scoring ability rather than efficiency).

His shooting percentages at various ranges tell the story of a guy who simply lacks the ability to score. And, as others have pointed out, this leads to teams having the ability to sag off him - because no matter what, Rubio is not a threat to score on his own.

To give you an idea of how this plays out in actual games over the regular season; Rubio is left "open" on 33.8% of all his attempts, and he's scoring with an eFG of 37.9% (33.3% from 2, 29.6% from 3). Those are career highs (IIRC).

By contrast, 28.5% of all his attempts are "Wide Open," and he's scoring with an eFG of 52.4% (43.1@2p/35.6@3p); so what we're seeing is someone who simply cannot score if they're not completely wide open (no defender within 6ft).

But what's amazing is the fact that he's left open/wide-open on 4.8 FGA/G, that's roughly two out of three attempts!

This means teams are NOT guarding Rubio on the ball, at all. He's left to operate, without coverage, with no defender within 4 feet of him; likely for a majority of the possessions of his recorded usage.

Think about that...

That's why I say Ricky Rubio should not be considered an elite PG (or even a starter-quality player). Is he "good," sure, I guess... But I agree with @godfather and @jking948 in that, I don't think he has a role as a starter in the NBA. Not on any team with championship aspirations.

That's the rub.

They're leaving him open and he's hitting those shots, which boosts his efficiency, and court vision.

His shooting will return to bad if they guard him, but if they guard him the floor is spread.