Kyrie Irving

[Jordan]

They all run the floor well though. I'd be shocked if they weren't a fast break team for a significant amount of their points.

The problem, I feel, is more their bench.

It now is officially off topic, we can move this if necessary

It's the Chicago/Memphis/Sacramento, etc. problem. I.E., the severe lack of floor spacing makes it possibles for defenses to sag off Rubio. He needs to be on a team with shooters, imo. I do think Minny will trade him this season, though, and if the Cavs can find a fair deal I'd love to have Rubio in Cleveland.

@David. to @godfather 's (and others') point; the problem with Rubio is the fact that he can't shoot.

His true-shooting percentage doesn't speak to his shooting ability; just his ability to score efficiently. On only 7.7 FGA/G with 4.1 FTA, his TS% is skewed (if we mistakenly assume TS% measures scoring ability rather than efficiency).

His shooting percentages at various ranges tell the story of a guy who simply lacks the ability to score. And, as others have pointed out, this leads to teams having the ability to sag off him - because no matter what, Rubio is not a threat to score on his own.

To give you an idea of how this plays out in actual games over the regular season; Rubio is left "open" on 33.8% of all his attempts, and he's scoring with an eFG of 37.9% (33.3% from 2, 29.6% from 3). Those are career highs (IIRC).

By contrast, 28.5% of all his attempts are "Wide Open," and he's scoring with an eFG of 52.4% (43.1@2p/35.6@3p); so what we're seeing is someone who simply cannot score if they're not completely wide open (no defender within 6ft).

But what's amazing is the fact that he's left open/wide-open on 4.8 FGA/G, that's roughly two out of three attempts!

This means teams are NOT guarding Rubio on the ball, at all. He's left to operate, without coverage, with no defender within 4 feet of him; likely for a majority of the possessions of his recorded usage.

Think about that...

That's why I say Ricky Rubio should not be considered an elite PG (or even a starter-quality player). Is he "good," sure, I guess... But I agree with @godfather and @jking948 in that, I don't think he has a role as a starter in the NBA. Not on any team with championship aspirations.

This is all really good stuff, Gour. One thing I'd like to clarify is I do think Rubio can be a starter in today's NBA, but it has to be on the right team. The two teams that, in my mind, should be trying to find a PG where Rubio could start are Boston and Dallas. Both teams have a lot of smart players and good shooters, and meanwhile, have somewhat limited starting PGs.

Outside of that subset of ~5 teams, though, I do believe Rubio would be best served in the sixth-man role, an area where I think he could win SMOTY.

 

[godfather]

@David. to @godfather 's (and others') point; the problem with Rubio is the fact that he can't shoot.

His true-shooting percentage doesn't speak to his shooting ability; just his ability to score efficiently. On only 7.7 FGA/G with 4.1 FTA, his TS% is skewed (if we mistakenly assume TS% measures scoring ability rather than efficiency).

His shooting percentages at various ranges tell the story of a guy who simply lacks the ability to score. And, as others have pointed out, this leads to teams having the ability to sag off him - because no matter what, Rubio is not a threat to score on his own.

To give you an idea of how this plays out in actual games over the regular season; Rubio is left "open" on 33.8% of all his attempts, and he's scoring with an eFG of 37.9% (33.3% from 2, 29.6% from 3). Those are career highs (IIRC).

By contrast, 28.5% of all his attempts are "Wide Open," and he's scoring with an eFG of 52.4% (43.1@2p/35.6@3p); so what we're seeing is someone who simply cannot score if they're not completely wide open (no defender within 6ft).

But what's amazing is the fact that he's left open/wide-open on 4.8 FGA/G, that's roughly two out of three attempts!

This means teams are NOT guarding Rubio on the ball, at all. He's left to operate, without coverage, with no defender within 4 feet of him; likely for a majority of the possessions of his recorded usage.

Think about that...

That's why I say Ricky Rubio should not be considered an elite PG (or even a starter-quality player). Is he "good," sure, I guess... But I agree with @godfather and @jking948 in that, I don't think he has a role as a starter in the NBA. Not on any team with championship aspirations.

Nailed it. This is why I don't think he's good as a point guard. That doesn't mean he doesn't do things well.

I don't think you can play the point guard position in the NBA, at least not as a starter, if you can't score.

Point guards have the ball in their hands, they HAVE TO make the defense counter that. I don't know how one can play the position if they can't. Look at any good point guard. Sure, some can't shoot as well as others, but all of them can score. Even Rondo who I've said is very overrated is definitely capable of scoring.

Wall, you name it, they all can it some way that makes them dangerous. I got nothing against Rubio. He most definitely does not belong in the top-10 point guards. That is laughable. I don't care where he ranks among others in RPM or win shares.

The stat isn't meant to be taken literally by definition of whose the best.

 

[gourimoko]

That's the rub.

They're leaving him open and he's hitting those shots, which boosts his efficiency, and court vision.

His shooting will return to bad if they guard him, but if they guard him the floor is spread.

He's only hitting those "Wide Open" shots, and at an efficiency that would be comparable to someone who is guarded. He's not hitting his "open" or guarded or contested shots.

He needs his defender to be 6ft+ away for him to have a reasonable chance at putting the ball in the hoop.

Thus, leaving Rubio "open" gives you, as the opposition, the same likelihood of outscoring your opponent as Hack-a-Shaq, or in essence, forcing your opponent into sub-1.0 PPP offense.

 

[David.]

He's only hitting those "Wide Open" shots, and at an efficiency that would be comparable to someone who is guarded. He's not hitting his "open" or guarded or contested shots.

He needs his defender to be 6ft+ away for him to have a reasonable chance at putting the ball in the hoop.

Thus, leaving Rubio "open" gives you, as the opposition, the same likelihood of outscoring your opponent as Hack-a-Shaq, or in essence, forcing your opponent into sub-1.0 PPP offense.

I understand that he's a bad shooter.


The rest of his game makes up for that on the right team. Even in Minnesota.. it is really really hard to argue when seeing his advanced stats and the eye test of Minnesota fans saying he's largely responsible for remarkably better play out of the team.

He's worth 8 points a game and about 30% of their wins by estimate, which is matched by actual results.

Bad shooting accounted for

 

[wuck]

I'm closing this thread because it is an Irving thread so rarely. I'm opening two new threads -- one focused on Irving and another serving as a general open-discussion thread.

I have gotten weary of how off-topic this thread goes. It's hard to blame any one person for this (just look up-thread), but it won't be allowed in the new Kyrie Irving thread. I have the time this month to monitor and delete posts as well as to ban users, and I think many would say it's long overdue.