LeBron James

Joe Charboneau

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@Joe Charboneau - Just wanted to say that, while I almost 100% agree with @MediumBaller and disagree with your opinions on this topic, I appreciate the way you handled that back and forth with maturity and class. I've seen so many other "newish" posters crash and burn when confronted like that. I think you're clearly a positive on this forum and hope you stick around, man... even if I disagree with your opinions on Lebron. Cheers!
Hey i appreciate that. I try not to get too carried away. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If we all ageed on everything this message board would be pretty boring wouldnt it. Again, thanks for the nice words!
 

The Human Q-Tip

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AD is just taking notes from LeBron on how to strong arm a team.
The problem is that having the leverage to strong-arm a team doesn't do you much good if the team doesn't have anything more to give. The Lakers obviously will offer AD a max deal next summer anyway, but other than that...what can they really do to appease him? They have no real assets to use for trade, though I suppose they'll be able to offer a swap for their 2026 pick. But I'm not sure that would bring them much at this point. They're very limited in ways they could improve that team next summer. Even if they dump LBJ to create cap space, there aren't any big-time free agents out there for them to sign.

So let's say the Lakers don't make the Finals this season. They may not even make the conference Finals. And if that's the case...what does AD do? Does he sign a long-term deal with a franchise that has no decent draft picks for the foreseeable future, and only a rapidly-aging LBJ as a running mate? Or does Rich Paul pull a double-cross on the Lakers? AD goes into free agency, and then LBJ demands a trade - which the Lakers likely would be more than willing to give at that point?

Other than whatever they'd managed to get back in trade from whomever wants LBJ for a single-season, they'd be left with virtually nothing, and no good draft picks for the next 5 years. They'd be absolutely, totally screwed.

Honestly, I think the NBA needs to consider strengthening the Stepien rule. The combination of picks going out 5 years into the future and the concept of pick swaps could potentially cripple a franchise. I mean, it couldn't happen to a nicer franchise than the Lakers, but this new era of superstars forcing their way while still under contract is going to lead more and more teams to offer those kind of deals. And that's not really good for the league or for the long term health of most franchises.
 
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billmac91

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This may be part of the explanation:

The thing is: The Lakers should welcome this strategy from their opponents. James is perfectly fine (if not actually good) as an on-ball defender. Just let one of his stans tell you....

It’s while he’s off the ball on the weak side that his energy and focus tends to wane. Watch him when he isn’t guarding the ball and you’ll get to see the ways he can actually hurt the defense. All too often he’ll just wander over to help somewhere that doesn’t need it, and then hardly attempt to recover to the shooter he left open.



So if that's the case, perhaps some of the stats don't properly assign fault to James for poor off-ball defense, and focus too much on his on-ball defense. If that's true, then he's really a "worse" defender than the stats may show.

Also, LBJ is still so immensely talented physically that he can be decent on defense even while putting force below-average effort. So perhaps some of those pundits are seeing that below average effort. And then perhaps the last component is that no matter how badly you get beaten, it still only counts as 2 points. So if James has a bunch of horrendous plays where he doesn't do anything and gets beaten badly, they don't count any more against his defensive rating than if he contested and just got beaten. So that also may be part of the "eye test" factor on defense.
I don't want to hammer it again, but when I watched the video Medium posted, (3) primray things stood out:

1. LeBron moved less on defense last year, per game, than any other season of his career using sporttrac data. LeBron moved the least amount of any player who played over 28 mpg his final season in Cleveland....he conserves energy off the ball.

2. The defensive metrics do not account for transition or help defense

3. The metrics DO NOT account for the player LeBron is guarding which is consistently the worst wing offensive player, or an offensively inept PF who isn't a threat. This INFLATES his metrics.

The eye test is almost certainly acceptable here. When you watch LeBron play defense, he looks lazy.......because he literally moves the least amount of any player in the league with starter minutes. His on ball defense remains average to plus, because he's still a 6'9" athletic freak that is hard to score on. Period. The frustration and debate comes in where the stats don't measure what he's awful at, which is help defense and effort in transition. Plus, again, it helps considerably the stats don't take into account the offensive player he's guarding efficiency and capability. When Brandon Ingram takes Paul George defensively, and LeBron takes Jerami Grant.......well that sucks for Ingram's defensive metrics because that isn't apples to apples. And the flipside is, LeBron's numbers get inflated because he's guarding the least effective wing or forward on the opposing team.
 

The Human Q-Tip

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I don't want to hammer it again, but when I watched the video Medium posted, (3) primray things stood out:

1. LeBron moved less on defense last year, per game, than any other season of his career using sporttrac data. LeBron moved the least amount of any player who played over 28 mpg his final season in Cleveland....he conserves energy off the ball.

2. The defensive metrics do not account for transition or help defense

3. The metrics DO NOT account for the player LeBron is guarding which is consistently the worst wing offensive player, or an offensively inept PF who isn't a threat. This INFLATES his metrics.

The eye test is almost certainly acceptable here. When you watch LeBron play defense, he looks lazy.......because he literally moves the least amount of any player in the league with starter minutes. His on ball defense remains average to plus, because he's still a 6'9" athletic freak that is hard to score on. Period. The frustration and debate comes in where the stats don't measure what he's awful at, which is help defense and effort in transition. Plus, again, it helps considerably the stats don't take into account the offensive player he's guarding efficiency and capability. When Brandon Ingram takes Paul George defensively, and LeBron takes Jerami Grant.......well that sucks for Ingram's defensive metrics because that isn't apples to apples. And the flipside is, LeBron's numbers get inflated because he's guarding the least effective wing or forward on the opposing team.
All great discussion points.

@MediumBaller ?
 

MediumBaller

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All great discussion points.

@MediumBaller ?
The Lakers were 3.1 points per 100 possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense was equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense was equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense.

Through December when LeBron got hurt, the Lakers were the 10th best defense in the NBA and they were still better with LeBron on the court than LeBron off the court. Of course, team numbers are affected by who else is on the court. Lonzo Ball is considered to be a really good defensive player, so those numbers could be skewed. But, the team was much better defensively with LeBron on and Lonzo off than vice versa.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

If LeBron's help defense or transition defense was so bad then a top 10 defense through the first 34 games of the season would not have been better with LeBron on the court than with LeBron off the court.

As for LeBron always guarding the worst offensive player, the players whom LeBron guarded had an overall season FG% of 46.5%. That's higher than the overall season FG% of the players that Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Kevin Durant guarded. Of the elite wings in the NBA, only Giannis guarded players who had a higher overall field goal %. Players saw a 3.8% drop in their field goal percentages when guarded by LeBron. That's a bigger drop than the players guarded George, Butler (players actually shot better when guarded by him) and Leonard saw in their percentages. LeBron guarded players who shot better from the field than the players Kawhi, George, and Butler guarded, and the players he guarded had bigger drops in their percentages. LeBron defended 10.1 shots per game, which was about the same number of shots defended as Kawhi (10.3), and about 1 less than the number that those other guys defended. If LeBron was just hiding on the worst offensive player on the court then the players he guarded wouldn't have a higher overall field goal % than the players guarded by George, Butler, Durant and Leonard, unless those guys are doing the exact same thing.

They don't have statistics for transition defense, but they have statistics for everything else.
Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

Whatever deficiencies were there in his transition game, they weren't enough to change the fact that the Lakers were much better on defense with him than without him. So, I still reject the idea that the 'eye test' is an accurate barometer of a player's defense. The eye test depends on the eye. LeBron's elite or above average in points per possession allowed in EVERY play type other than spot up defense in which he’s average/slightly above average. No one statistic is definitive, but looking at all of them put together it would be almost impossible to come up with an argument that Lebron is no longer a plus defender.
 
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billmac91

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The Lakers were 3.1 points per 100 possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense was equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense was equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense.

Through December when LeBron got hurt, the Lakers were the 10th best defense in the NBA and they were still better with LeBron on the court than LeBron off the court. Of course, team numbers are affected by who else is on the court. Lonzo Ball is considered to be a really good defensive player, so those numbers could be skewed. But, the team was much better defensively with LeBron on and Lonzo off than vice versa.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

If LeBron's help defense or transition defense was so bad then a top 10 defense through the first 34 games of the season would not have been better with LeBron on the court than with LeBron off the court.

As for LeBron always guarding the worst offensive player, the players whom LeBron guarded had an overall season FG% of 46.5%. That's higher than the overall season FG% of the players that Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Kevin Durant guarded. Of the elite wings in the NBA, only Giannis guarded players who had a higher overall field goal %. Players saw a 3.8% drop in their field goal percentages when guarded by LeBron. That's a bigger drop than the players guarded George, Butler (players actually shot better when guarded by him) and Leonard saw in their percentages. LeBron guarded players who shot better from the field than the players Kawhi, George, and Butler guarded, and the players he guarded had bigger drops in their percentages. LeBron defended 10.1 shots per game, which was about the same number of shots defended as Kawhi (10.3), and about 1 less than the number that those other guys defended. If LeBron was just hiding on the worst offensive player on the court then the players he guarded wouldn't have a higher overall field goal % than the players guarded by George, Butler, Durant and Leonard, unless those guys are doing the exact same thing.

They don't have statistics for transition defense, but they have statistics for everything else.
Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

Whatever deficiencies were there in his transition game, they weren't enough to change the fact that the Lakers were much better on defense with him than without him. So, I still reject the idea that the 'eye test' is an accurate barometer of a player's defense. The eye test depends on the eye. LeBron's elite or above average in points per possession allowed in EVERY play type other than spot up defense in which he’s average/slightly above average. No one statistic is definitive, but looking at all of them put together it would be almost impossible to come up with an argument that Lebron is no longer a plus defender.
We can go in circles on this, and either of us can make the statistics whatever we want them to be in all honesty.

I believe the eFG% would be higher than the guys Kawhi and PG defended. Because LeBron tends to guard guys who take low volume, high percentage shots. Like PF's who aren't much of a threat to score unless it's a dunk at the rim. Those are the guys LeBron conserves energy on. An interesting stat would be per game, how many shots were taken against Kawhi, Butler, PG, etc.......because my first inclination is, the FG's attempted against LeBron would be lower, because he does guard secondary offensive options. I don't know the stats, I'd just be curious to see.

In regards to Points per possession with LeBron on and off the court, I think I mentioned it in a previous post, but I'm just not a huge believer in it, because teams do take significantly harder shots when LeBron dictates the offense vs when he's off the court. Luke Walton wanted a blistering pace, but LeBron only half bought in. He still settled things on the offensive end, and played at a slower speed than when he was off court.......all that to say, it's 100% accurate to say the Lakers gave up less points per possession with LeBron on the court, with or without Lonzo. Because offenses took harder shots because the game wasn't played like a wide open, Big 12 spread offense pace. Easier shots in transition equates to higher points per possession. I'm happy to give LeBron credit for being able to dictate the pace of a game, and in turn, increasing the likelihood his defense will be able to get stops. But that really isn't the argument, and LeBron being able to dictate how the game is played offensively, doesn't contribute to his defensive metrics...... but the Lakers crew of miscreants last year were more than happy to chuck at break-neck speed when LeBron was off the court.

I'd be curious to see the splits on LeBron on and off the court his last two years in CLE as well for a fuller picture.

Again, the movement data shows LeBron moved the least amount of his entire career on defense last year. In his last playoffs in CLE (against Indiana), an entire article was published showing how little he moved on defense (the least movement of any defender in league over 28 mins per game) and he acknowledged he conserves energy on that end.
 

MediumBaller

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We can go in circles on this, and either of us can make the statistics whatever we want them to be in all honesty.

I believe the eFG% would be higher than the guys Kawhi and PG defended. Because LeBron tends to guard guys who take low volume, high percentage shots. Like PF's who aren't much of a threat to score unless it's a dunk at the rim. Those are the guys LeBron conserves energy on. An interesting stat would be per game, how many shots were taken against Kawhi, Butler, PG, etc.......because my first inclination is, the FG's attempted against LeBron would be lower, because he does guard secondary offensive options. I don't know the stats, I'd just be curious to see.

In regards to Points per possession with LeBron on and off the court, I think I mentioned it in a previous post, but I'm just not a huge believer in it, because teams do take significantly harder shots when LeBron dictates the offense vs when he's off the court. Luke Walton wanted a blistering pace, but LeBron only half bought in. He still settled things on the offensive end, and played at a slower speed than when he was off court.......all that to say, it's 100% accurate to say the Lakers gave up less points per possession with LeBron on the court, with or without Lonzo. Because offenses took harder shots because the game wasn't played like a wide open, Big 12 spread offense pace. Easier shots in transition equates to higher points per possession. I'm happy to give LeBron credit for being able to dictate the pace of a game, and in turn, increasing the likelihood his defense will be able to get stops. But that really isn't the argument, and LeBron being able to dictate how the game is played offensively, doesn't contribute to his defensive metrics...... but the Lakers crew of miscreants last year were more than happy to chuck at break-neck speed when LeBron was off the court.

I'd be curious to see the splits on LeBron on and off the court his last two years in CLE as well for a fuller picture.

Again, the movement data shows LeBron moved the least amount of his entire career on defense last year. In his last playoffs in CLE (against Indiana), an entire article was published showing how little he moved on defense (the least movement of any defender in league over 28 mins per game) and he acknowledged he conserves energy on that end.
The only data you've brought is LeBron's movement, and honestly I'm not really sure what the relevance there is supposed to be. Like, ok, he moved the least of his career on defense last year. So? Despite that, the Lakers were a better defensive team with him than without him, opponents shot worse when guarded by him, and he was elite or above average in almost every individual category. The movement stuff clearly isn't impacting him enough to make him a negative defender. You're coming up with ways to rationalize discrediting statistics while simultaneously trusting something as unreliable as the 'eye test'. It doesn't add up.

Here are the numbers for the other players.
Players whom George has defended overall season FG%: 45.7%
FG% when defended by George: 43.7% (-2.0%, 11.9 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Kawhi has defended overall season FG%: 46.0%
FG% when defended by Kawhi: 45.1% (-.9%, 10.3 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Butler has defended overall season FG%: 46.1%
FG% when defended by Butler: 47.0% (+.9%, 12.7 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Durant has defended overall season FG%: 46.2%
FG% when defended by Durant: 40.9% (-5.3%, 11.4 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Giannis has defended overall season FG%: 46.9%
FG% when defended by Giannis: 40.8% (-6.1% 11.2FGAs defended per game)

I'm not seeing any evidence from you to point to LeBron being a bad team defender. The one thing you mentioned was transition defense, and since there are no statistics available for it, it's impossible to reach a conclusion one way or the other there. While the on/off numbers have a lot of variables, you can look at individual statistics to supplement the team stats. These very same numbers had LeBron as a bad defender his last year in Cleveland, which he is.

I mean, seriously. What's more likely here.. that every single defensive statistic is wrong and LeBron figured out how to post great defensive statistics while actually being a bad defender, or that the numbers are right and he was a good one last year?
 

billmac91

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The only data you've brought is LeBron's movement, and honestly I'm not really sure what the relevance there is supposed to be. Like, ok, he moved the least of his career on defense last year. So? Despite that, the Lakers were a better defensive team with him than without him, opponents shot worse when guarded by him, and he was elite or above average in almost every individual category. The movement stuff clearly isn't impacting him enough to make him a negative defender. You're coming up with ways to rationalize discrediting statistics while simultaneously trusting something as unreliable as the 'eye test'. It doesn't add up.

Here are the numbers for the other players.
Players whom George has defended overall season FG%: 45.7%
FG% when defended by George: 43.7% (-2.0%, 11.9 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Kawhi has defended overall season FG%: 46.0%
FG% when defended by Kawhi: 45.1% (-.9%, 10.3 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Butler has defended overall season FG%: 46.1%
FG% when defended by Butler: 47.0% (+.9%, 12.7 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Durant has defended overall season FG%: 46.2%
FG% when defended by Durant: 40.9% (-5.3%, 11.4 FGAs defended per game)

Players whom Giannis has defended overall season FG%: 46.9%
FG% when defended by Giannis: 40.8% (-6.1% 11.2FGAs defended per game)

I'm not seeing any evidence from you to point to LeBron being a bad team defender. The one thing you mentioned was transition defense, and since there are no statistics available for it, it's impossible to reach a conclusion one way or the other there. While the on/off numbers have a lot of variables, you can look at individual statistics to supplement the team stats. These very same numbers had LeBron as a bad defender his last year in Cleveland, which he is.

I mean, seriously. What's more likely here.. that every single defensive statistic is wrong and LeBron figured out how to post great defensive statistics while actually being a bad defender, or that the numbers are right and he was a good one last year?
And despite playing far fewer minutes per game, Brandon Ingram defended 11.6 shots per game, and Kuzma defended 11.4 shots per game.

IMO, as you dig into the numbers you start seeing what I’m saying. Kuzma and Ingram were assigned higher volume shooters hence their “shots defended” numbers being higher in fewer minutes per game. LeBron averaged 35.2 MPG last year while Ingram was 33.8 and Kuzma was 33.1.

Kuzma and Ingram carried the heavier burden on opposing teams dynamic offensive players.

For reference...

Tobias Harris - 12.8
Paul George - 12.4
Jimmy Butler - 12.2
Siakam - 12.0
KD - 11.1
Giannis - 11.1
Harrison Barnes - 10.8
LeBron - 10.1

And LeBron averaged more minutes per game than almost every guy on this list.

What I take from the metrics is that it doesn’t paint a very accurate picture. I could be an average NBA defender if I got to guard Eric Snow every night. When you couple who LeBron guarded with his lack of movement, it’s like “WTF man”? You’re guarding Jerami Grant while Ingram is checking PG and you can’t pkay help defense? (And the stats by way of movement show he’s not great at help defense otherwise he’d actually be moving on defense and not stationary.)



This is a great article on it.

“It has been hard to fathom how LeBron James can be playing more games than ever, more minutes than ever, and yet in some ways, be more dominant than ever.

The answer is simple: James has perfected the art of resting while playing.”

Here's the data that illustrates it. No one would ever call James slow, but he is when he wants to be. During the regular season, James' average speed during games was 3.85 mph, according to Second Spectrum tracking data.
Of all players who averaged at least 20 minutes a game, that ranked in the bottom 10 in speed. That's correct: James moved slower than just about any rotation player in the league. And since the playoffs started, James has gotten even slower. His average has slipped to 3.69 mph.

Here's why: James walks a lot. During the regular season, about 74.4 percent of James' time on the court was spent walking. Again, this was in the top 10 in the league. Almost no one walked up and down the floor more than James. And in the playoffs, he's walking even more -- 78.7 percent of the time.
It's a data-backed way of saying James calculates when he can take plays off. Or more appropriately, when he needs to take them off.
 
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MediumBaller

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And despite playing far fewer minutes per game, Brandon Ingram defended 11.6 shots per game, and Kuzma defended 11.4 shots per game.

IMO, as you dig into the numbers you start seeing what I’m saying. Kuzma and Ingram were assigned higher volume shooters hence their “shots defended” numbers being higher in fewer minutes per game. LeBron averaged 35.2 MPG last year while Ingram was 33.8 and Kuzma was 33.1.

Kuzma and Ingram carried the heavier burden on opposing teams dynamic offensive players.

For reference...

Tobias Harris - 12.8
Paul George - 12.4
Jimmy Butler - 12.2
Siakam - 12.0
KD - 11.1
Giannis - 11.1
Harrison Barnes - 10.8
LeBron - 10.1

And LeBron averaged more minutes per game than almost every guy on this list.
You left off Kawhi, who defended only 10.3 shots per game. Players taking fewer shots against LeBron than Ingram/Kuzma doesn't automatically mean it was because he was guarding worse players. It's entirely possible that players took more shots against Kuzma because he is a bad defender and players felt they could score on him, whereas they thought it would be harder to score with LeBron James guarding them. Kuzma was 70th of 76 power forwards in DRPM in 2017/18 and 77th of 92 in 2018/2019. Ingram was 52nd of 95 small forwards in 2018/19, 42nd of 77 in 2017/2018 and 60th of 64 in 2016/2017. Neither have posted a positive DRPM in 5 combined seasons. Without going through every single minute of every game it's impossible to know the reason. We already know that LeBron was a good individual defender last year, and you still haven't provided anything to point to LeBron being a bad team defender.
 
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So let's say the Lakers don't make the Finals this season. They may not even make the conference Finals. And if that's the case...what does AD do? Does he sign a long-term deal with a franchise that has no decent draft picks for the foreseeable future, and only a rapidly-aging LBJ as a running mate? Or does Rich Paul pull a double-cross on the Lakers? AD goes into free agency, and then LBJ demands a trade - which the Lakers likely would be more than willing to give at that point?

Other than whatever they'd managed to get back in trade from whomever wants LBJ for a single-season, they'd be left with virtually nothing, and no good draft picks for the next 5 years. They'd be absolutely, totally screwed.
This was exactly my point. As my post before documented, AD is not talking like a guy with any particular loyalty to the Lakers. The Lakers are not even favorites to make the Finals this season, right? And it is entirely plausible that, as you say, they won't make the Conference Finals -- Houston, Denver, and Utah are no joke. If AD leaves that's a complete disaster for both the Lakers and Lebron.
 

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This was exactly my point. As my post before documented, AD is not talking like a guy with any particular loyalty to the Lakers. The Lakers are not even favorites to make the Finals this season, right? And it is entirely plausible that, as you say, they won't make the Conference Finals -- Houston, Denver, and Utah are no joke. If AD leaves that's a complete disaster for both the Lakers and Lebron.
To be clear, AD is only talking this way to lend some credulity that there wasn't clear tampering, and he's not 100% sold on the Lakers.....which is BS. As poster above said, AD isn't going anywhere. He's locked in. All that Chicago talk was 100% lip service. It was laughable.
 

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To be clear, AD is only talking this way to lend some credulity that there wasn't clear tampering, and he's not 100% sold on the Lakers.....which is BS. As poster above said, AD isn't going anywhere. He's locked in. All that Chicago talk was 100% lip service. It was laughable.
Tampering? Tampering? What's tampering? It doesn't exist in the modern NBA. I read AD as sincere. But this isn't something we have to argue about, we'll see who was right at the end of the season after LA doesn't make the Finals. If AD signs a max long-term contract with them anyway then you were right.
 

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Lebron is a smart defender, and the reason he isn't useless is because his positioning is good. Kawhi is the same way and that is why guys take fewer shots on them because they have good early positioning. There is also just the reputational factor. People play tight against them. Lebron is always yelling at guys though because he does not shoot in from the weakside like he used to, and thus his defensive metrics are still good. It's another guy's man scoring so it doesn't count against him.

AV used to have terrible at the rim contest numbers because he would always help if someone got by his teammate. That meant that an easy dump off to AV's man would result in a score. On the 2008-2010 era that was covered by the secondary helper. In the 2010-2014 era that never happened and his at the rim #'s took a nosedive.

You can't just look at these stats and say Lebron is a good defender. He is good in some areas and weaker in others. The eye test does tell you something and everyone who has watched the last 3 years or so has seen the decline and more plays being taken off. Lebron is legit a basketball genius, he probably knows which defensive plays he can take off that will impact his stats the least. One of the worst games I ever saw him play was a triple double.
 
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