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Lindor trade ideas

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You really should think a little before another one of your grossly negative comments are offered... Noteworthy: your touching empathy for Jake Bauers is puzzling..

-Nolan Jones hasn't played above AA ball.. when he does.. then talk about his spot
-Tyler Freeman hasn't played above A+.. see Jones, Nolan.. from above..
-Daniel Johnson=fourth OF'er.. has a chance but not yet.. not last year, either
-Jake Bauers has PROVEN NOTHING and may continue to do so..

-Marsh rates as a PLUS defender in CF with an excellent arm and 60 rated speed. Got any CF'er with speed that can hit that he'd be blocking?.. Brad Zimmer? oh wait ! smh
-Frazier turned the corner last year and was pulverizing the ball. There is NO ONE in the entire indians system that has his offensive ceiling.. NO ONE.. He wouldn't block anyone because they can't beat his game..
-Gavin Lux is a READY NOW ML'er who's best spot is 2B (I'm sure Jose Tena is being blocked by Lux too !!). Freeman.. ISN'T ready now.. may not be ready until 2022+. When he is ready.. he can win the job.. or not realize the DREAM.. that's how baseball works..
Owen Miller IS a SS and IS should be ready by 2021.. so there IS a SS..
Naylor is a 1B hiding in LF.. There is space..

Franmill Reyes will play..

so will Andujar.. there are plenty of AB's for both.. The only reason I like Andujar.. he hits the ball.. if he doesn't.. he'd be non-tendered.. If he wasn't part of the deal.. it wouldn't break my heart, either..

Our MLB team is going to be weakened regardless with the loss of Lindor... you don't lose a top five or ten player on a team and expect to be as good as before.. Adding additional deals.. either as stand alone or together hasten a retooling.. That's where the Indians are going.. especially with the depth in our current pitching staff and the emptiness of the Tribe's ownership's piggybank...

Edit: the arms included in the original posting were omitted.. and no one knows why.. oh, wait.. it doesn't fit the half assed agenda implicit in the response.. nvrmnd..
...and the band played on.....

Well, considering Antonetti specifically mentioned Bauers by name in his end-of-season presser, and literally said he was next in line for a call up, why is my 'touching empathy' puzzling?

There's no point in debating when you're constantly moving the goalposts-- Marsh and Miller haven't played above AA, either, but they're ready and Jones isn't? Which is it? You can't have it both ways. If you don't know about Tyler Freeman's development this season, and his closeness to the bigs, then I don't know what to tell you. You still didn't address what you'd do with our top prospects after you blocked them. Saying 'they aren't ready' isn't answer especially when they're, at most, a year away and you're blocking them with a longterm solution.

Further, Andujar hasn't played in two years now and Clint Frazier's sample size of 'pulverizing' the ball is just 160 PA's and yet the Yankees still played Brett Gardner over him in the playoffs. You can't sit there and say certain Indians players haven't done anything and then turn around as say let's trade for other guys who haven't proven anything either and expect it to go unnoticed.

Either you're blocking our top prospects or you're acquiring guys who aren't going to play, and that's my point, it's a very poor use of assets.

Dude, I brought up a completely valid concern with your idea. Cool it with the personal attacks or don't respond. I'm not the one constantly making things personal....
 
I think Ed raises a legitimate question, but Frazier has nothing to do with Jones who I suspect will end up at 1B. I thought Freeman was a SS and there's Arias as well with Chang as the stop gap. We'll need a UIF too. I like my Carrasco trade better than Gson's, but it's all speculation and ideas. Wild ones at that, even if they do contain some sensibility. I also don't know if both Frazier and Andujar can be had or if they even should be, but damn is Andujar's bat attractive. I just don't know how you fit him in without sacrificing Naylor. This is how I'd attempt to stack the lineup in 22 if my trades were made.

LF- J. Naylor
CF- Johnson
RF- Frazier
C- Ruiz
1B- Jones
2B- Lux
3B- Groshans
SS- Arias
UIF- Freeman/Miller/Chang
4th OF- Mercado
DH- Reyes
C- B. Naylor

It's not about the exact players, but the idea of young, affordable, controlled, high end talent at every position.
 
Teams don't trade players as much as they trade contracts. As such, JRam may be the most valuable contract in baseball. That being said, he might bring one of the greatest returns in recent history.

However, no way I see the Indians, trying to squeeze every penny while still contending, trading the most valuable contract in baseball while it also has one of the best rotations in baseball. Trading Jose, along with Frankie and Cookie, makes that rotation a moot point, because by the time the team is finally able to truly contend again, it will be time to dismantle the rotation before it gets expensive. It would take several years for a team as young as being proposed to have enough impact players to contend.

No matter how good a prospect is, it usually takes years for them to make a consistent impact. We've had a lot of highly rated prospects and a lot of pretty fair players over the last fifteen years or so. Few of them produced consistently from the get go. Most took at least three years to become difference makers.

Among the ones who did are Kipnis, Santana, and Lindor. But on the other side of the ledger we had JRam, Brantley, and a ton that never became more than platoon players, like Chiz and Naquin. Then we had the ones that never were, like LaPorta, Marte, Zimmer, and James Ramsey. (Remember him?) Then there are Frazier and Mejia.

The failure rate of top prospects to become impact players is high. The failure rate of top prospects to become instant producers is astronomical. To expect a very young and completely rebuilt offensive team to produce enough to contend within three years is whimsy.

But within three years we are gonna have a slew of highly thought of prospects who will be MLB ready. There is no need to go into total rebuild now, which is what the trading of Lindor, Cookie, and JRam would be
 
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Remember these can’t miss prospects: Milton Bradley and Matt LaPorta?
 
It's not about the exact players, but the idea of young, affordable, controlled, high end talent at every position.
One thing they could accomplish if they traded Lindor, CC, and Hosey in the same off-season would be to acquire a number of young players who would immediately slot in as top ten prospects in the organization. Combine that group with the top prospects we already have and it would create a huge wave of emerging talent that are all within a three-year age range who would not be arbitration eligible for years.

What they've had so far is their top talent at the major league level being spread out in terms of age. They have a good season, win 90-95 games, then Brantley walks. They have another good (but not great) season and they have to trade Bauers and Kluber. Another solid year and they have to trade Lindor and let Santana and Hernandez walk. A pandemic comes along so they trade Clevinger. It's like they can never get over the hump because every year they have to jettison a top performer. They're running in place.

On top of that you have top performers who just get old and lose their effectiveness; Cody Allen, Kluber, Shaw, Andrew Miller, Otero, etc.

So the proposal is to trade three of their four stars (all except Bieber) at the same time instead of one each year as they've done in the past. That would create a wave of similar age prospects that can grow together and they would not have to trade or let anybody walk for 3-4 years. That's an interesting idea and a different approach to holding onto them until there's one year left or one-half year left and trading them.

But I agree it would create some inefficiency. If the #1 prospect in your organization is a 22-year-old third baseman, for example, why trade for a 3rd base prospect? If we were to do this we should insist on outfielders, a catcher, and pitchers in return. We have a lot of middle infielders in the system.

However, it might be better to trade only CC and Lindor, especially if they can get the right pieces in return to complement what we already have.

I'm wondering if this is the best time to maximize the return given the huge financial losses incurred by every team last year. OTOH, it might make JRam even more attractive. He'll make only $35 million the next three years combined. He's almost a sure thing to be an MVP candidate all three years. Teams who are not flush with money could afford that contract - we wouldn't be limited to the Yankees, Dodgers, or Mets.

You might find a team with a modest budget and a closing window of opportunity who would really shell out to get an affordable star. I doubt that a player of Ramirez's ability who is this young (28) and inexpensive with three years of control left has EVER been on the market.

Normally we try to suck as much juice from the orange as possible before throwing it away, but in this case it might be worth considering. They could consolidate ALL the organizational talent in one 20-23 year old age group instead of having it spread out so they can never quite get over the hump and always have to move a key piece or two after every season.
 
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Teams don't trade players as much as they trade contracts. As such, JRam may be the most valuable contract in baseball. That being said, he might bring one of the greatest returns in recent history.

However, no way I see the Indians, trying to squeeze every penny while still contending, trading the most valuable contract in baseball while it also has one of the best rotations in baseball. Trading Jose, along with Frankie and Cookie, makes that rotation a moot point, because by the time the team is finally able to truly contend again, it will be time to dismantle the rotation before it gets expensive. It would take several years for a team as young as being proposed to have enough impact players to contend.

No matter how good a prospect is, it usually takes years for them to make a consistent impact. We've had a lot of highly rated prospects and a lot of pretty fair players over the last fifteen years or so. Few of them produced consistently from the get go. Most took at least three years to become difference makers.

Among the ones who did are Kipnis, Santana, and Lindor. But on the other side of the ledger we had JRam, Brantley, and a ton that never became more than platoon players, like Chiz and Naquin. Then we had the ones that never were, like LaPorta, Marte, Zimmer, and James Ramsey. (Remember him?) Then there are Frazier and Mejia.

The failure rate of top prospects to become impact players is high. The failure rate of top prospects to become instant producers is astronomical. To expect a very young and completely rebuilt offensive team to produce enough to contend within three years is whimsy.

But within three years we are gonna have a slew of highly thought of prospects who will be MLB ready. There is no need to go into total rebuild now, which is what the trading of Lindor, Cookie, and JRam would be

Prospect failure is mostly the highly rated, highly projected low level prospects. Guys like Jones, Groshans, Frazier, and Lux find success rather quickly if not immediately. It's been frustrating to me to see Johnson held back because he has basically performed better with his minor league promotions and 12 f'n AB is far from a determining factor. Typically the guys that have hit at each and every level with consistency carry that to the highest level. I give you Jesus Aguilar.

Many of the failures you mentioned are due to injuries and that is always a risk for any prospect or player. It's a risk for Jose Ramirez too.

I don't agree that it takes prospects that are at the tail end of their development years to find success at the MLB level. What you will find that if a prospect is ready and given a legitimate opportunity that he will perform as he always has even if it is tempered a bit by better opposition. I especially temper my expectations for hitters coming out of the PCL. However, if a pitcher has succeeded in that league then he is one to keep an eye on.

You kind of confused me when you stated "we are gonna have a slew of highly thought of prospects who will be MLB ready" after suggesting that it takes years for prospects to find success. I don't think there should be any doubt that Clint Frazier can mash a baseball and is exactly what this team has been missing for quite some time. Groshans is the RH equivalent to Jones IMO. Ed turned me on to him and he is a damn fine prospect that will be ready soon. There is your 2 corner IF. Lux hasn't really been given much of an opportunity, but his track record suggest that he will be a good hitter even if it isn't anywhere close to what he did in the PCL. Point being, these kids have proven what they can do consistently and they have talent in the same way Ramirez did, or Lindor did, or Santana did. No doubt there will be lumps taken, but the farm is deep and this pitching staff is one of the best.
 
One thing they could accomplish if they traded Lindor, CC, and Hosey in the same off-season would be to acquire a number of young players who would immediately slot in as top ten prospects in the organization. Combine that group with the top prospects we already have and it would create a huge wave of emerging talent that are all within a three-year age range who would not be arbitration eligible for years.

What they've had so far is their top talent at the major league level being spread out in terms of age. They have a good season, win 90-95 games, then Brantley walks. They have another good (but not great) season and they have to trade Bauers and Kluber. Another solid year and they have to trade Lindor and let Santana and Hernandez walk. A pandemic comes along so they trade Clevinger. It's like they can never get over the hump because every year they have to jettison a top performer. They're running in place.

On top of that you have top performers who just get old and lose their effectiveness; Cody Allen, Kluber, Shaw, Andrew Miller, Otero, etc.

So the proposal is to trade three of their four stars (all except Bieber) at the same time instead of one each year as they've done in the past. That would create a wave of similar age prospects that can grow together and they would not have to trade or let anybody walk for 3-4 years. That's an interesting idea and a different approach to holding onto them until there's one year left or one-half year left and trading them.

But I agree it would create some inefficiency. If the #1 prospect in your organization is a 22-year-old third baseman, for example, why trade for a 3rd base prospect? If we were to do this we should insist on outfielders, a catcher, and pitchers in return. We have a lot of middle infielders in the system.

However, it might be better to trade only CC and Lindor, especially if they can get the right pieces in return to complement what we already have.

I'm wondering if this is the best time to maximize the return given the huge financial losses incurred by every team last year. OTOH, it might make JRam even more attractive. He'll make only $35 million the next three years combined. He's almost a sure thing to be an MVP candidate all three years. Teams who are not flush with money could afford that contract - we wouldn't be limited to the Yankees, Dodgers, or Mets.

You might find a team with a modest budget and a closing window of opportunity who would really shell out to get an affordable star. I doubt that a player of Ramirez's ability who is this young (28) and inexpensive with three years of control left has EVER been on the market.

Normally we try to suck as much juice from the orange as possible before throwing it away, but in this case it might be worth considering. They could consolidate ALL the organizational talent in one 20-23 year old age group instead of having it spread out so they can never quite get over the hump and always have to move a key piece or two after every season.

Great post Wham. You make some very valid points that better describe how I would like to see things done.

Here's the thing about prospect lists, they are not always accurate. For instance, Jones is not our 3B of the future. He's more likely to be our 1B or even LFer. He has the bat to profile at either. If they could get a kid like Groshans who is listed as a SS, but more likely a 3B then you have your 2 corner IF locked up. Cleveland already has a plethora of MIF prospects that are close so if they chose to not acquire someone like Lux then I see the logic in that. Like Ed mentioned, you don't want to block your best prospects. The big question is if any of those prospects are as good as Lux.

I'm not saying they should trade Ramirez now, but he'll never be worth more than he currently is. We all know Lindor is gone, and I think that Carrasco should also be dealt to capitalize on his value. I only say that due to the quality SP depth that can lessen the negative effects of trading such a valuable player.

Again, I ask what would deter fans more, having one big dump or trading one of your best players away every damn year.
 
How about Lindor/Hedges/Mercado to NY for McNeil/Nimmo/Gimenez?

C-Perez
1B-Jones
2B-McNeil
SS-Gimenez
3B-Ramirez
LF-Naylor
CF-Nimmo
RF-Johnson
DH-Reyes
 
Enjoying the discussion, but I think Nolan Jones is far more likely to end up in the outfield, not at 1B. He has a terrific arm that would be wasted at 1B.
 
Enjoying the discussion, but I think Nolan Jones is far more likely to end up in the outfield, not at 1B. He has a terrific arm that would be wasted at 1B.

At the current moment we have a bigger need in the OF as well. There also should be more 1B available than almost any other position as well. So at the end of the day if he can play OF id rather have him there.
 
@Gson You honestly went to far...

Antonetti talked about Bauers at the end of the season. He would be the best source one of us could get, is he not?

Also Ed is right, almost all the guys you mentioned have about the same level of minor league experience so why are they so different?
 
Enjoying the discussion, but I think Nolan Jones is far more likely to end up in the outfield, not at 1B. He has a terrific arm that would be wasted at 1B.

Believe it or not, Jones doesn't run as well as Naylor and has limited range. What Jones does have is a good glove and fielding instincts. I think he would be one helluva good 1B. Maybe that's just me.
 
Might be one of the most active Rule 5 drafts ever this time around. Normally I/we'd have a more insight but with no minor league season to speak of it is rather mysterious this year. That said, I think we will see a lot of teams grab someone. If a team knew how 2020 was going to play out they would have likely grabbed someone. The uncertainty of 2021 probably makes a rule 5 pick more enticing.

As for Jones, he is a good raw fielder but error prone for now, seemed like he made a fair amount of fielding errors in particular if I recall correctly. 1B could be a landing spot for him but with Naylor, Bauers and Bradley already in the mix a quicker path to the majors would be RF IMO but who knows. The easiest answer is slide Jram back to 2nd and give Jones a trial by fire at the hot corner. Not likely at all.

Another name we gloss over is Ernie Clement. Close to a lock for the 40 man, he slots in as a utility guy who could play 2B/SS if Chang falters in his extended 2021 exposure. Speaking of Chang, he seems like another one we tend to write off. But was looking pretty good as a 23 yr old in 2019 AAA ball (2nd year) when injuries slowed him. Probably time to see if he can play regular ML ball. Chang could play as our SS but is probably better at 3rd or even 2nd.

Of course he real darkhorse here is Tyler Freeman who would have made it to AAA this year I believe.
 
Might be one of the most active Rule 5 drafts ever this time around. Normally I/we'd have a more insight but with no minor league season to speak of it is rather mysterious this year. That said, I think we will see a lot of teams grab someone. If a team knew how 2020 was going to play out they would have likely grabbed someone. The uncertainty of 2021 probably makes a rule 5 pick more enticing.

As for Jones, he is a good raw fielder but error prone for now, seemed like he made a fair amount of fielding errors in particular if I recall correctly. 1B could be a landing spot for him but with Naylor, Bauers and Bradley already in the mix a quicker path to the majors would be RF IMO but who knows. The easiest answer is slide Jram back to 2nd and give Jones a trial by fire at the hot corner. Not likely at all.

Another name we gloss over is Ernie Clement. Close to a lock for the 40 man, he slots in as a utility guy who could play 2B/SS if Chang falters in his extended 2021 exposure. Speaking of Chang, he seems like another one we tend to write off. But was looking pretty good as a 23 yr old in 2019 AAA ball (2nd year) when injuries slowed him. Probably time to see if he can play regular ML ball. Chang could play as our SS but is probably better at 3rd or even 2nd.

Of course he real darkhorse here is Tyler Freeman who would have made it to AAA this year I believe.

Freeman, Miller and some others don't have to be protected this season, so they won't be added to the 40 man until they are called up. We got a lot from the 18 draft talent wise between us drafting and trades so thats something to look at as the season goes along.

I think Clement gets added to the 40 man, but also I think either Mike Freeman or a left handed utility guy gets added to spring training invites here soon. We actually need a few left handed INFs in the mix.
 

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