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Obi Toppin Scouting: Discuss

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Alec Zander said:
I'm pretty down on Toppin. Watched all the tape I could find online and the defensive concerns are legit. he's for sure a tweener. Simultaneously, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being a top 15 scorer in the NBA with additional spacing and adequate attempts. The temptation is real, but I hope Koby leaves it at that.
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Stats like scoring are enticing but if your team plays no defense and is often losing 135-125, you will have some players necessarily score a bunch of points. To win you need players that also make it easier for others to score on your team and make it harder for people to score on the other team.
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
This kind of logic always confuses me a bit. I mean, the teams/GM's all have access to the same information (plus a ton of additional stuff) that we do. So if we're able to conclude that none of these guys are special, and that the smart thing to do is to grab a more ready, well-rounded guy like Vassell...why shouldn't we assume that other teams see it the same way? And if that is the case, what makes you think Vassell will still be there if we trade down? Or that anyone would give us anything significant if we did trade down?

I really dislike trading down in the hope of nabbing a particular player.
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I'm not a fan of trading down, either.....I just brought that up seeing as though people are so down Toppin and we have no shot at either of the other top two picks (Edwards/Weisman) and I have doubts about Advi and I for one do not want Ball even if he drops to us.
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
Let’s be real here.....there is NO sure fire superstar in this draft. They all have flaws and the only well rounded picks in this draft (offensively/defensively) is Edwards and Weisman. Advi looks be another Cedi (good but nothing special), Okongwu is another TT (only good on D and catching lob dunks), Okoro is an inconsistent shooter, and no way should the Cavs take another PG (Haliburton)!
If Toppin doesn’t look attractive then the Cavs should trade down and look at a player like Vassell out of Florida State.
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I totally disagree about Okongwu being another Tristan and Okoro being an Inconsistent shooter..If,anyone that has a red flag it's Wiseman. He only played a couple of games and haven't shown much of his offensive ability. There's a reason,why so many had Okongwu over Wiseman.

Okongwu is light years ahead than Tristan every was on the offensive side of the ball.....The only thing that's a big question mark is his ability to shoot the three.Same thing implies to Okoro. I think those two can become a better shooter.

At some point,people need to stop wanting a superstar out of the gate. I don't understand this mentality at all. You got players like Trae Young that gets alot of media attention but haven't even won more than 25 gamed yet...Can we pump the breaks of throwing the word superstar to players that does an exciting dunk or averages 28 ppg. At least,Luka took his team to the playoffs and almost beat the Clippers.I'm starting to hate that word.
 
You look at the gap between Toppin and Okongwu as scorers...Toppin scored 20 ppg, Okongwu 16ppg. Great. Is that such a big difference that it makes up for Okongwu's edge on defense, and for the 3-year age gap? Of course not. How is this even a debate?
 
ansatsusha80 said:
I totally disagree about Okongwu being another Tristan and Okoro being an Inconsistent shooter..If,anyone that has a red flag it's Wiseman. He only played a couple of games and haven't shown much of his offensive ability. There's a reason,why so many had Okongwu over Wiseman.

Okongwu is light years ahead than Tristan every was on the offensive side of the ball.....The only thing that's a big question mark is his ability to shoot the three.Same thing implies to Okoro. I think those two can become a better shooter.

At some point,people need to stop wanting a superstar out of the gate. I don't understand this mentality at all. You got players like Trae Young that gets alot of media attention but haven't even won more than 25 gamed yet...Can we pump the breaks of throwing the word superstar to players that does an exciting dunk or averages 28 ppg. At least,Luka took his team to the playoffs and almost beat the Clippers.I'm starting to hate that word.
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I’m not talking “superstar” but at some point we need to find a “cornerstone” type player to build this team around! Okoro and Okongwu aren’t it! When you talk about drafting a player in the top five he should be somewhere near that caliber of player. As for Trey Young I was hoping to God we could have gotten him. He IS a cornerstone type player! Have the Hawks won anything big? No! But without Young they would be in the bottom five of the league every year.
 
I wanted Young, too, but in fairness he's been on the Hawks team for two years and they were bottom 5 in the league both times. I don't think it's wise to pretend there's a cornerstone player to be had if there just isn't. There may be one in this year's draft but damned if it's obvious who it is.
 
Nathan S said:
You look at the gap between Toppin and Okongwu as scorers...Toppin scored 20 ppg, Okongwu 16ppg. Great. Is that such a big difference that it makes up for Okongwu's edge on defense, and for the 3-year age gap? Of course not. How is this even a debate?
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I like Okongwu as the cavs pick. think it is only a debate if Love is traded or Okongwu is gone by the cavs ick at 5. Or if the cavs feel they can reach and agreement on contracts with both Drummond and (or just Drummond) TT then it could become need vrs BPA.
 
Nathan S said:
You look at the gap between Toppin and Okongwu as scorers...Toppin scored 20 ppg, Okongwu 16ppg. Great. Is that such a big difference that it makes up for Okongwu's edge on defense, and for the 3-year age gap? Of course not. How is this even a debate?
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The edge is Toppin’s ability to go beyond the key area and be a threat. That’s the reason why people are able to clog the key now because is afraid of TT (nor would they be worried about Oknogwu) hurting them 15-20 feet away from the basket. The only big man in this draft worth taking in the top five is Weisman (and we have a only a small sample of him).
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
The edge is Toppin’s ability to go beyond the key area and be a threat. That’s the reason why people are able to clog the key now because is afraid of TT (nor would they be worried about Oknogwu) hurting them 15-20 feet away from the basket. The only big man in this draft worth taking in the top five is Weisman (and we have a only a small sample of him).
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This is true, but Toppin was basically a non-shooter until age 21, and even now shoots only when left wide open. I think it's perfectly realistic to project that Okongwu will attain a similar level of shooting ability in a few years, and his all-around game will make it well worth the wait.
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
I’m not talking “superstar” but at some point we need to find a “cornerstone” type player to build this team around! Okoro and Okongwu aren’t it! When you talk about drafting a player in the top five he should be somewhere near that caliber of player. As for Trey Young I was hoping to God we could have gotten him. He IS a cornerstone type player! Have the Hawks won anything big? No! But without Young they would be in the bottom five of the league every year.
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Players can develop, why can't that happen..It took Steph,Dame Kyrie,KD and Giannis awhile to be cornerstones of their franchise. They just didnt just come out and be that way.happen...People are in a rush to get the next big thing they forget it takes time.


And,what's the point of getting a guy like Trae Young when you're not winning. The Hawks were supposed to make a playoff run this past season yet they won 20 games.

Also,I think KPJ can be that guy but it's going to take time for him to develop. He's shown flashes but still have a long way to go.


daddywags said:
I wanted Young, too, but in fairness he's been on the Hawks team for two years and they were bottom 5 in the league both times. I don't think it's wise to pretend there's a cornerstone player to be had if there just isn't. There may be one in this year's draft but damned if it's obvious who it is.
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Everyone had them making a playoff push before the season and they won 20 games


Nathan S said:
This is true, but Toppin was basically a non-shooter until age 21, and even now shoots only when left wide open. I think it's perfectly realistic to project that Okongwu will attain a similar level of shooting ability in a few years, and his all-around game will make it well worth the wait.
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That's been my issue with the Cavs wanting to draft Toppin. Why draft a guy that's already at his ceiling vs a guy that has more upside than him. Like,I said,many times Windler is older than Toppin but I think Windler has more upside than Toppin,especially on the offensive end. I think Windler can play better defense than Toppin. That's how low I'm on Toppin.Windler grabbed more rebounds than Toppin in college. That's a huge red flag to me.
 
ansatsusha80 said:
Players can develop, why can't that happen..It took Steph,Dame Kyrie,KD and Giannis awhile to be cornerstones of their franchise. They just didnt just come out and be that way.happen...People are in a rush to get the next big thing they forget it takes time.


And,what's the point of getting a guy like Trae Young when you're not winning. The Hawks were supposed to make a playoff run this past season yet they won 20 games.

Also,I think KPJ can be that guy but it's going to take time for him to develop. He's shown flashes but still have a long way to go.





Everyone had them making a playoff push before the season and they won 20 games




That's been my issue with the Cavs wanting to draft Toppin. Why draft a guy that's already at his ceiling vs a guy that has more upside than him. Like,I said,many times Windler is older than Toppin but I think Windler has more upside than Toppin,especially on the offensive end. I think Windler can play better defense than Toppin. That's how low I'm on Toppin.Windler grabbed more rebounds than Toppin in college. That's a huge red flag to me.
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If Toppin is so bad why was he college player of the year instead of these other players?
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
Then again the question is why didn’t Edwards, Okoro, Halliburton, etc win the honor?
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What people are saying about Toppin is less about what he did in college and more of a projection based on a combination of factors of what they think will be some serious flaws or limitation in the NBA, specifically on the defensive side of the ball. I agree with some of it, and think some of it is overblown. I also think some of it is not just based on Toppins fit in the NBA but also the Cavs current roster composition. We’ve had the league worst defense for two years in a row so people’s impressions of the defensive acumen of our guards is very low. That makes them uncomfortable with the idea of a front court player who they feel will not be able to mask or help cover the current deficiencies of our guards. A lot of people have also had frustration of Love’s defense and would like to see a different type of PF in the future, instead of a continuation or worsening of the defense Love brings.

If you read back through this thread, the 2020 Offseason thread, and the NBA Draft thread in the Trade, Free Agency, and the Draft section of the forum, you can find a lot of posts and exchanges that go into more detail on why Toppin is not a favorite for this team amongst a lot of the posters on RCF, instead of the generalities I tried to list above.
 
Ohioplayer00 said:
Then again the question is why didn’t Edwards, Okoro, Halliburton, etc win the honor?
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Because they were more team players who couldn't put up as gaudy offensive numbers in a weak conference.

But probably the more important reason is that Toppin is older (22), with more playing experience, and so should be better right now than are those other, younger, less experienced guys (Okoro and Edwards are only 19, Halliburton is only 20). Those kind of awards tend to be won by more experienced college upper classman rather than by more talented but less experienced freshman.
 
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