Perception of Dolans vs Attendance

[The Wizard of Moz]

When has it never ended with me, AZ, Mo, and others getting mad, and you, Real Deal, Mar, Jig, Saget saying "just a joke don't take it so seriously"...and then Chris coming in and saying the thread sucks...

I actually laughed out loud at this because it is to a T what happens including the Chris detail


But I don't think this is the typical 'cheap Dolans discussion'

I seriously think that there is an addition bonus to signing EE because of how bad fan relations are with the owner.

We both agree that there are fans who have bad feelings towards the Dolans. That's a starting point.

Now you think that no matter what the Dolans do they can't mend those relations. This is where we disagree. I truly think signing EE would mend some of those relationships

Now I'm not saying sign him just because of fan interest, but it is also an incredibly good fit. Something a lot of us have agreed on. Think of the fan mending as an additional benefit (that I believe will help generate more revenue)

We have not signed a free agent like EE for as long as I can remember. Swisher wasn't half the hitter EE is. EE will appeal greatly to the casual fan. And I want to stress because I know it will get picked out of my argument that I am just trying to appeal to the casual fan and that's not how winning baseball teams operate: I think fans aside this is a very smart signing. I just think we are in a unique situation where this signing can also go a long way

I realize we are a WS contender and attendance SHOULD Be better, but I think people are just distrusting of the Dolans. I personally am almost 100% convinced that before Lindor's free agency (which I admit is a long time from now) he will be traded. And that will rub people massively wrong like it did with thome, sabathia, Lee.

People get pissed when you trade back to back Cy young winners for minor league players. You can say they should be mad at the MLB structure and I personally am, but misplaced anger is still anger.

 

[BimboColesHair]

The Dolan's take way to much heat...

And they will until they sell the team.

I'm convinced, had the Indians won the World Series, that they would have been booed at the celebration...that's where its at with them and some people who call themselves "fans".

Also, I think it hurts them a bit that Dan Gilbert, with his highest payroll in NBA history and consistent willingness to pay the luxury tax, owns the team right next door to them. Can't tell you how many times I've heard people say "I wish Dan Gilbert owned the Indians".

 

[Chris]

Even if it was a joke, just tired about the same Dolan shit being dredged out any chance it can get by certain posters in here.

When is the last time it provided something useful to talk about? When has it never ended with me, AZ, Mo, and others getting mad, and you, Real Deal, Mar, Jig, Saget saying "just a joke don't take it so seriously"...and then Chris coming in and saying the thread sucks...

Also, if its a joke, those jokes haven't been funny for years...learn some new material. Watch some Showtime at the Apollo or something and come back with something new.

I mean, the thread did suck at that point.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I actually laughed out loud at this because it is to a T what happens including the Chris detail


But I don't think this is the typical 'cheap Dolans discussion'

I seriously think that there is an addition bonus to signing EE because of how bad fan relations are with the owner.

We both agree that there are fans who have bad feelings towards the Dolans. That's a starting point.

Now you think that no matter what the Dolans do they can't mend those relations. This is where we disagree. I truly think signing EE would mend some of those relationships

Now I'm not saying sign him just because of fan interest, but it is also an incredibly good fit. Something a lot of us have agreed on. Think of the fan mending as an additional benefit (that I believe will help generate more revenue)

We have not signed a free agent like EE for as long as I can remember. Swisher wasn't half the hitter EE is. EE will appeal greatly to the casual fan. And I want to stress because I know it will get picked out of my argument that I am just trying to appeal to the casual fan and that's not how winning baseball teams operate: I think fans aside this is a very smart signing. I just think we are in a unique situation where this signing can also go a long way

I realize we are a WS contender and attendance SHOULD Be better, but I think people are just distrusting of the Dolans. I personally am almost 100% convinced that before Lindor's free agency (which I admit is a long time from now) he will be traded. And that will rub people massively wrong like it did with thome, sabathia, Lee.

People get pissed when you trade back to back Cy young winners for minor league players. You can say they should be mad at the MLB structure and I personally am, but misplaced anger is still anger.

See, I'm willing to bet, should they sign EE and see a fan increase (which they are going to see, regardless of who they sign) that a certain group will point to the signing alone and say "see, spend money and we'll show up"...when in reality most of those people had already made up their mind to show up next season the second they made it to the World Series.

Now, could the addition of someone like Encarnacion maybe take it a bit farther with casuals? Yes. But the majority of the increase we see next year will be because of what the team without him did last year.

There is still nothing better to bring fans back than the performance of the team...not big names, not how much money is being spent, not shitty dollar hot dogs, not firework shows. Performance of the team trumps all.

But I just think the whole "Dolan's need to spend to show me they care" mindset is just a bullshit excuse people use for not supporting the team like they should. 4 straight winning seasons, 2 trips to the post season, 1 trip to the World Series, one of the youngest cores in baseball, the majority of which is locked up until the end of the decade and beyond...yet we still have people who'd rather not support the players because of some angst they felt for ownership almost a decade ago when they moved CC, Lee, Victor, etc. It would be better if those people just admitted they didn't care about baseball.

Like, I understand why people were mad at ownership back then...but still holding it over their heads now? They'll never win in this town...ever...

And yes...I also think the Encarnacion signing would be smart and the fit makes a ton of sense. But only to a point for me. I'm sure as hell okay with not throwing the guy the reported 4/80 deal.

You make the deal if you feel it won't cost you a long term extension on one of your own homegrown players that you want to keep around. If they feel giving that much money to a mid 30s player is going to cost them an extension down the line on Santana, or Allen, or Ramirez, or Lindor, or Bauer, or Salazar...you don't make it then.

And that has nothing to do with them "being cheap" or not caring about the fans, everything to do with how the system forces small market teams to operate in the MLB.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I mean, the thread did suck at that point.

Yes...yes it did. My whole point is that it seems like you are always the one to tell us it sucks when it goes down that rabbit hole, and then the shitty conversation stops.

And for that, I thank you.

 

[bigfoot5415]

455 was the perfect storm. Browns were gone and the Cavs sucked. Allowing ppl to spend their entertainment dollars in one place. If you watch Cavs game now you can even seen noticeable holes in the stands. While brokers may be driving up prices, if the Indians don't go on the run they just did...people would spend their money on the Cavs..even if marked up.

Dolans are an issue but only a piece of the puzzle.

 

[BimboColesHair]

455 was the perfect storm. Browns were gone and the Cavs sucked. Allowing ppl to spend their entertainment dollars in one place. If you watch Cavs game now you can even seen noticeable holes in the stands. While brokers may be driving up prices, if the Indians don't go on the run they just did...people would spend their money on the Cavs..even if marked up.

Dolans are an issue but only a piece of the puzzle.

IMO, much like there was a perfect storm to cause the 455 figure, there was one to cause the steep decline in attendance as well.

Return of the Browns and LeBron coming to town coinciding with the majority of the fabled mid and late 90s Indians leaving in free agency right when free agency prices started to get ridiculous.

Then you had the slow rebuild back up in the mid and early late 2000s, the 07 run, then the trades of CC, Lee, Victor, etc. coinciding with the recession and a fast declining population.

Lot of reasons for it, not all of which is ownership's fault. They certainly aren't clean of any wrong doing though.

 

[bigfoot5415]

IMO, much like there was a perfect storm to cause the 455 figure, there was one to cause the steep decline in attendance as well.

Return of the Browns and LeBron coming to town coinciding with the majority of the fabled mid and late 90s Indians leaving in free agency right when free agency prices started to get ridiculous.

Then you had the slow rebuild back up in the mid and early late 2000s, the 07 run, then the trades of CC, Lee, Victor, etc. coinciding with the recession and a fast declining population.

Lot of reasons for it, not all of which is ownership's fault. They certainly aren't clean of any wrong doing though.

Agree with all of these points. I think by not resigning guys after they built it back up is where the perception came from. The biggest issue is that this city has a very difficult time supporting 3 teams. Hopefully with the most popular team being a shit show, and more young people going to live downtown we can see a healthy balance between the 3.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Agree with all of these points. I think by not resigning guys after they built it back up is where the perception came from. The biggest issue is that this city has a very difficult time supporting 3 teams. Hopefully with the most popular team being a shit show, and more young people going to live downtown we can see a healthy balance between the 3.

But they kind of did...just they extended the wrong ones in Grady and Hafner.

They never had a chance to extend CC and Lee IMO. If any Cleveland fan is convinced they could have kept either of them, they are on something. You could make the argument for Victor though with how much he loved being in Cleveland.

Really it comes down to them keeping the string moving, going forward...too often they lost guys but had no farm to replace them, or their prospects busted, so the turnarounds were painfully slow.

They have something going right now that gives me confidence they'll be competing and surviving players moving on for the foreseeable future...lets hope Cleveland notices sooner rather than later, cause these guys deserve so much more fan support than they get right now.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

They never had a chance to extend CC and Lee IMO

And this right here is where a lot of the Dolan hate comes from. Now you can argue it should be MLB hate, and I do certainly hate the MLB for not having a salary cap, but people don't like it that we have no chance to retain the stars we produce. No one wants to be the Yankees and Red Sox farm system, and that hate goes to the guy signing the checks

 

[BimboColesHair]

And this right here is where a lot of the Dolan hate comes from. Now you can argue it should be MLB hate, and I do certainly hate the MLB for not having a salary cap, but people don't like it that we have no chance to retain the stars we produce. No one wants to be the Yankees and Red Sox farm system, and that hate goes to the guy signing the checks

That's not true...

It just means we are seeing the rebirth of the pre-arb extension league wide...something the Indians themselves made popular in the early 90s.

We've already seen ones given to: Brantley, Kipnis, Santana, Kluber, Carrasco, Gomes.

Just, there's a lot of risk in giving those kind of deals out because you are usually giving them to a fairly young/inexperienced player who may or may not continue to have the same success after the extension as he did before...case in point Grady and Hafner, who we did that with in the mid 2000s.

But in order to give those, you can't be throwing tons of long term cash at free agent signings...

Really, the only difference in the MLB is big spenders like Boston, NY, LA, Chicago can afford to do both at the same time...a small market can only afford to do one or the other (or try to balance both and make incredibly difficult choices that big clubs don't have to make).

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

That's not true...

It just means we are seeing the rebirth of the pre-arb extension league wide...something the Indians themselves made popular in the early 90s.

We've already seen ones given to: Brantley, Kipnis, Santana, Kluber, Carrasco, Gomes.

Just, there's a lot of risk in giving those kind of deals out because you are usually giving them to a fairly young/inexperienced player who may or may not continue to have the same success after the extension as he did before...case in point Grady and Hafner, who we did that with in the mid 2000s.

But in order to give those, you can't be throwing tons of long term cash at free agent signings...

Really, the only difference in the MLB is big spenders like Boston, NY, LA, Chicago can afford to do both at the same time...a small market can only afford to do one or the other (or try to balance both and make incredibly difficult choices that big clubs don't have to make).

I was speaking specifically to your comment on Lee and Sabathia

 

[sportscoach]

My issue is the fact for a fair amount of years the Indians drafted very poorly, aka from 2000-2007 we only got like 6 guys hit the pros that lasted more than a couple seasons. Outside of Jeremy Guthrie we really didn't have anyone of note. We had Joe inglett, Brian Tallet, Ryan Garko etc. All guys who had a few years of production but never amounted to anything. I know most draft picks never amount to much, but at the same time we really did not get the right players at all. We batted like .125 in those 7 years when it came to the drafting. Being a small market team we have to draft well otherwise we fail as an organization. I think at one point the team was doing bad, and we weren't bringing in anyone outside of trading, we had a low budget and no team to put out there that was worth watching. Another issue was the fact we didn't do the contract extensions like Jacobs did in the 90s that kept a good team together. Now that being said we didn't have a whole lot of guys to resign and when we did have good players like CC and Lee, we traded them before we had to pay them and with the fact we weren't drafting well, trading our best players away and changing the team almost every season many people lost faith in the organization.

Now that being said in all sincerity I never felt the FO ever supported Acta whatsoever which didn't help matters in my mind. Once Francona though took over it all seemed to changed. They started drafting better. 2008 we got Chisenhall, 2009 we got Kipnis, 2010 guys we drafted like Pomeranz and Wolters are still playing and contributing in the league. in 2011 we drafted Allen, Lindor then four more guys on our 40 man roster like Anderson, Merritt, Morimando and Armstrong. We also signed guys like Swisher and Bourn. I know those two didn't pan out, but at the same time the FO at least was trying and doing something. We started giving out extensions to young players again like we did in the 90s and everything like that. Last season we went and signed Napoli, Davis, Uribe and HunterNow we had to bite the bullet on Hunter and Uribe, but at least we went and got someone and tried to win. Then Dolan actually not making the Yankees eat any of Millers contract surprised me and gave me a bit of faith in the FO

Honestly from when the Dolans took over until Francona got here in Cleveland, I give Dolan and his FO a bad grade and that is the time the fans lost faith in this franchise and I cannot say I blame them for it. I didn't like/agree with all their moves or anything like that. Since Francona has been here time period, I give the FO and Dolan fairly high marks. Not all the moves have worked, but they at least went out and tried to do something about this team and roster. We have been developing players/drafting players at a much better rate. So I personally still do not like the Dolan's as an owner he has at least been slowing allowing way more freedom for the FO to act on what we need. I still feel we need to go out and get that big right handed bat. I will still hate the way they raise ticket prices so much a week/two weeks before ball games, but I always buy early anyways lol

 

[Derek]

My issue is the fact for a fair amount of years the Indians drafted very poorly, aka from 2000-2007 we only got like 6 guys hit the pros that lasted more than a couple seasons. Outside of Jeremy Guthrie we really didn't have anyone of note. We had Joe inglett, Brian Tallet, Ryan Garko etc. All guys who had a few years of production but never amounted to anything. I know most draft picks never amount to much, but at the same time we really did not get the right players at all. We batted like .125 in those 7 years when it came to the drafting. Being a small market team we have to draft well otherwise we fail as an organization. I think at one point the team was doing bad, and we weren't bringing in anyone outside of trading, we had a low budget and no team to put out there that was worth watching. Another issue was the fact we didn't do the contract extensions like Jacobs did in the 90s that kept a good team together. Now that being said we didn't have a whole lot of guys to resign and when we did have good players like CC and Lee, we traded them before we had to pay them and with the fact we weren't drafting well, trading our best players away and changing the team almost every season many people lost faith in the organization.

Now that being said in all sincerity I never felt the FO ever supported Acta whatsoever which didn't help matters in my mind. Once Francona though took over it all seemed to changed. They started drafting better. 2008 we got Chisenhall, 2009 we got Kipnis, 2010 guys we drafted like Pomeranz and Wolters are still playing and contributing in the league. in 2011 we drafted Allen, Lindor then four more guys on our 40 man roster like Anderson, Merritt, Morimando and Armstrong. We also signed guys like Swisher and Bourn. I know those two didn't pan out, but at the same time the FO at least was trying and doing something. We started giving out extensions to young players again like we did in the 90s and everything like that. Last season we went and signed Napoli, Davis, Uribe and HunterNow we had to bite the bullet on Hunter and Uribe, but at least we went and got someone and tried to win. Then Dolan actually not making the Yankees eat any of Millers contract surprised me and gave me a bit of faith in the FO

Honestly from when the Dolans took over until Francona got here in Cleveland, I give Dolan and his FO a bad grade and that is the time the fans lost faith in this franchise and I cannot say I blame them for it. I didn't like/agree with all their moves or anything like that. Since Francona has been here time period, I give the FO and Dolan fairly high marks. Not all the moves have worked, but they at least went out and tried to do something about this team and roster. We have been developing players/drafting players at a much better rate. So I personally still do not like the Dolan's as an owner he has at least been slowing allowing way more freedom for the FO to act on what we need. I still feel we need to go out and get that big right handed bat. I will still hate the way they raise ticket prices so much a week/two weeks before ball games, but I always buy early anyways lol

Yes, we did. We just didn't have any good players. Like you said, we drafted like shit until we overhauled the scouting department with the Baseball America guys. Plus, we extended Grady, Hafner. We had CC, Lee, and Victor for 7 or 8 years each. We just had nobody else outside of them. Injuries killed that core, especially in regards to Grady and Hafner. Grady was a budding superstar.

What exactly did you want them to do for Acta? He was overseeing a rebuild. His team sucked because of how poorly we had drafted in the previous decade. I don't know how you can blame the Dolans for bad drafting.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Yes, we did. We just didn't have any good players. Like you said, we drafted like shit until we overhauled the scouting department with the Baseball America guys. Plus, we extended Grady, Hafner. We had CC, Lee, and Victor for 7 or 8 years each. We just had nobody else outside of them. Injuries killed that core, especially in regards to Grady and Hafner. Grady was a budding superstar.

What exactly did you want them to do for Acta? He was overseeing a rebuild. His team sucked because of how poorly we had drafted in the previous decade. I don't know how you can blame the Dolans for bad drafting.

This, exactly.

I can't stand takes like sportscoach's, where we blame the owner for bad results on the field. It's the same reason people ran Lerner out of town, and now we're stuck with Haslam and his jackass, interfering self.

It's not Dolan's fault that the Indians drafted poorly for so many years. He isn't crazy cheap or anything like that. Grady legit looked like a perrenial MVP candidate, and we locked him up. We've been doing the right thing for a long time--and a stretch of bad luck with drafting and minor league development turned an entire city sour on a guy who isn't responsible for any of it.

But, the cherry on top of it all, is that we have to hear this argument now. Our entire fucking team is locked up for multiple years. We might have the best team in baseball, and we achieved this because we kept our organizational approach the exact same for a long period of time. We locked up our homegrown talent early on, and it has finally paid off. Every single fan should be ecstatic. Every single fan should be congratulating Dolan's approach to building a small market MLB team. Every single fan should enjoy this fucking ride for the next few years. But no, people still want to bitch about an owner, and money, because they feel a certain way.

If you're not going to the games, that's on you. Indians tickets are dirt cheap, the stadium experience is world class, and we have a winning team. Stop making excuses. Stop whining about an owner who's fine. If you run Dolan out of town, you might end up with an owner who you can actually complain about.