Perception of Dolans vs Attendance

[GreasySpread36]

It's the same reason people ran Lerner out of town, and now we're stuck with Haslam and his jackass, interfering self.

Nobody ran Randy Lerner out of town. I doubt he ever wanted to own the Browns anyway, the franchise got thrown into his lap when his father passed away. It was pretty obvious that Aston Villa was a lot closer to his heart than the Browns were just by virtue of the fact that he actually showed up at Aston Villa's matches.

As for the Dolans, the budget restraints never bothered me. That's the way they have to do business in this sport and in this market. I give them a lot of credit for running a first-class organization that treats its people well and never falls into the tabloid nonsense that has afflicted the Browns and to a certain extent the Cavaliers. As long as they continue to draft and develop well I have no issues with the money they do or don't spend.

 

[AZ_]

This, exactly.

I can't stand takes like sportscoach's, where we blame the owner for bad results on the field. It's the same reason people ran Lerner out of town, and now we're stuck with Haslam and his jackass, interfering self.

It's not Dolan's fault that the Indians drafted poorly for so many years. He isn't crazy cheap or anything like that. Grady legit looked like a perrenial MVP candidate, and we locked him up. We've been doing the right thing for a long time--and a stretch of bad luck with drafting and minor league development turned an entire city sour on a guy who isn't responsible for any of it.

But, the cherry on top of it all, is that we have to hear this argument now. Our entire fucking team is locked up for multiple years. We might have the best team in baseball, and we achieved this because we kept our organizational approach the exact same for a long period of time. We locked up our homegrown talent early on, and it has finally paid off. Every single fan should be ecstatic. Every single fan should be congratulating Dolan's approach to building a small market MLB team. Every single fan should enjoy this fucking ride for the next few years. But no, people still want to bitch about an owner, and money, because they feel a certain way.

If you're not going to the games, that's on you. Indians tickets are dirt cheap, the stadium experience is world class, and we have a winning team. Stop making excuses. Stop whining about an owner who's fine. If you run Dolan out of town, you might end up with an owner who you can actually complain about.

The argument has now devolved into "well it starts at the top" and blaming Dolan for the poor drafting and approach in those earlier years.

The initial argument was foolishly based on not spending enough money, when they realized the ignorance of that argument over time, they still deflected blame onto the Dolans in another way to cover their initial mistake.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Nobody ran Randy Lerner out of town. I doubt he ever wanted to own the Browns anyway, the franchise got thrown into his lap when his father passed away. It was pretty obvious that Aston Villa was a lot closer to his heart than the Browns were just by virtue of the fact that he actually showed up at Aston Villa's matches.

As for the Dolans, the budget restraints never bothered me. That's the way they have to do business in this sport and in this market. I give them a lot of credit for running a first-class organization that treats its people well and never falls into the tabloid nonsense that has afflicted the Browns and to a certain extent the Cavaliers. As long as they continue to draft and develop well I have no issues with the money they do or don't spend.

Ooh, is this the revisionist history we get to do now, where we pretend that not every Browns fan in the city was calling for a new owner? He's cheap! He doesn't care! Look, he owns a SOCCER team! We've only been bad under Lerner. THIS STARTS AT THE TOP!!!

Lerner wrote checks and stayed out of the football side of things. He was the perfect owner. Yet, the Browns sucked so badly, that eventually people got sick of calling for the heads of players, coaches and GMs, that they moved on to the owner.

Maybe those fans calling for Lerner's head didn't directly cause him to sell the team. Maybe he was going to sell regardless of fan perception. But let's not pretend those cries weren't there.

 

[GreasySpread36]

Ooh, is this the revisionist history we get to do now, where we pretend that not every Browns fan in the city was calling for a new owner? He's cheap! He doesn't care! Look, he owns a SOCCER team! We've only been bad under Lerner. THIS STARTS AT THE TOP!!!

Lerner wrote checks and stayed out of the football side of things. He was the perfect owner. Yet, the Browns sucked so badly, that eventually people got sick of calling for the heads of players, coaches and GMs, that they moved on to the owner.

Maybe those fans calling for Lerner's head didn't directly cause him to sell the team. Maybe he was going to sell regardless of fan perception. But let's not pretend those cries weren't there.

What I'm saying is that I very much doubt that the complaints of the fans- which were fully justified considering how bad the team was- had anything to do with Randy Lerner selling the team. I don't think his heart was ever in owning the Browns to begin with.

And with all due respect the idea that Lerner was a perfect owner, or even a good owner, is risible. Randy Lerner was an absentee landlord. Every now and again he'd throw money at someone to handle the team for him since he wanted very little to do with it himself. There were constant turf battles and power struggles in Berea between the people he hired. There were no grown-ups in charge. Just because Jimmy Haslam's ownership has been a tire fire doesn't make Randy Lerner anything more than what he was. Being a good owner takes more than just writing a check every so often.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

What I'm saying is that I very much doubt that the complaints of the fans- which were fully justified considering how bad the team was- had anything to do with Randy Lerner selling the team. I don't think his heart was ever in owning the Browns to begin with.

And with all due respect the idea that Lerner was a perfect owner, or even a good owner, is risible. Randy Lerner was an absentee landlord. Every now and again he'd throw money at someone to handle the team for him since he wanted very little to do with it himself. There were constant turf battles and power struggles in Berea between the people he hired. There were no grown-ups in charge. Just because Jimmy Haslam's ownership has been a tire fire doesn't make Randy Lerner anything more than what he was. Being a good owner takes more than just writing a check every so often.

Fair points. I can't help but feel like if Holmgren wasn't a giant turd, that the entire perception of Lerner would be different.

 

[GreasySpread36]

Fair points. I can't help but feel like if Holmgren wasn't a giant turd, that the entire perception of Lerner would be different.

I get the idea of a good owner being a guy who hires good people and steps back and let them do their job. In theory that really is the best way to run a franchise. At the same time, well, I don't know about you but if I owned a sports franchise, be it NFL or a short-season Single-A baseball team, I'd be in the building every day. Not to interfere per se, but just because it's a big-assed investment and I'd want to make sure it's at least being run properly by the people I've put in charge. I have to think the Dolans (particularly Paul), while hands-off, are probably more involved with the Indians day-in and day-out than Randy Lerner ever was for the Browns.

 

[sportscoach]

Yes, we did. We just didn't have any good players. Like you said, we drafted like shit until we overhauled the scouting department with the Baseball America guys. Plus, we extended Grady, Hafner. We had CC, Lee, and Victor for 7 or 8 years each. We just had nobody else outside of them. Injuries killed that core, especially in regards to Grady and Hafner. Grady was a budding superstar.

What exactly did you want them to do for Acta? He was overseeing a rebuild. His team sucked because of how poorly we had drafted in the previous decade. I don't know how you can blame the Dolans for bad drafting.

I know Acts oversaw a rebuild, but with bad drafting you have to bring in outside sources to fill in the holes on the team and that never happened at this time but the next season after Acta was fired we went and did that, so I just feel bad for Acta since it didn't feel like he ever had the support from the FO since they weren't making very good moves when they did make them. Now I understand why we didn't sign anyone since it didn't make sense to at the time, but majority of the fans do not care if we do not win.

Now Francona is a much better coach by far anyways so in the long run it may not have been bad, just we have to make sure we keep the FO and Coaches on the same page. As long as we have the current crew running the show we should actually be doing well. Hopefully though MLB doesn't keep moving up the luxury tax cap since that only makes it harder on the organization.

This, exactly.

I can't stand takes like sportscoach's, where we blame the owner for bad results on the field. It's the same reason people ran Lerner out of town, and now we're stuck with Haslam and his jackass, interfering self.

It's not Dolan's fault that the Indians drafted poorly for so many years. He isn't crazy cheap or anything like that. Grady legit looked like a perrenial MVP candidate, and we locked him up. We've been doing the right thing for a long time--and a stretch of bad luck with drafting and minor league development turned an entire city sour on a guy who isn't responsible for any of it.

But, the cherry on top of it all, is that we have to hear this argument now. Our entire fucking team is locked up for multiple years. We might have the best team in baseball, and we achieved this because we kept our organizational approach the exact same for a long period of time. We locked up our homegrown talent early on, and it has finally paid off. Every single fan should be ecstatic. Every single fan should be congratulating Dolan's approach to building a small market MLB team. Every single fan should enjoy this fucking ride for the next few years. But no, people still want to bitch about an owner, and money, because they feel a certain way.

If you're not going to the games, that's on you. Indians tickets are dirt cheap, the stadium experience is world class, and we have a winning team. Stop making excuses. Stop whining about an owner who's fine. If you run Dolan out of town, you might end up with an owner who you can actually complain about.

I have stated before that I didn't like how the team was being run since the Dolan's took over the team, but I also said since the younger Dolan has started running the team has been way better. We have been drafting a lot better and we are staying/looking in the right direction especially since we have a solid farm, with guys under team control. We have a good team now and we should for awhile if they keep making the correct moves. With Francona and Antoinette working together before he started to manage here and being friends really has helped keep the FO and the coach on the same page.

I go to games every single summer whether the team is good or bad, and the tickets can be dirt poor. If you get the tickets early they are really well priced, but if you try to get tickets near the game day they can get pricey. I have seen upper bleacher seats 40+ a piece for certain games. Anyone who decides the day of to go is no longer going. I know they gotta make money, but at times the tickets are a bit much. I'm a college student so I don't have a ton of extra cash and my dad is retired and he doesn't either. I usually just pick 6 games at the beginning of the season and those are the ones we go to and that's all I can afford since its an hour drive to a game.

The reason why some fans are calling the Dolan's cheap is because when we needed to sign free agents they felt we never did. If we had drafted well they wouldn't have cared, but since we didn't they wanted to bring in someone and since they didn't bring in any big name free agent for a fair amount of years. This got the fans frustrated especially after the years in the 90s when we didn't lose.

I sincerely wasn't happy with the FO mostly because they weren't making moves the small market teams needed to. We needed to go get a Doug Fister not a Jimenez, who would have likely taken a contract extension at the time. We really weren't making moves like we did for Lofton and Vizquel like we did in the early 90s. I think the one year not going to get a Pence really made the fans mad and they felt the FO wasn't supporting their views. Then not signing a Nelson Cruz, just added to the casual fans issues. The fans got mad at moves like that. We did make moves for Barfield and Jimenez, but they didn't pan out and fans look at that and not the idea behind it

 

[Derek]

I know Acts oversaw a rebuild, but with bad drafting you have to bring in outside sources to fill in the holes on the team and that never happened at this time but the next season after Acta was fired we went and did that, so I just feel bad for Acta since it didn't feel like he ever had the support from the FO since they weren't making very good moves when they did make them. Now I understand why we didn't sign anyone since it didn't make sense to at the time, but majority of the fans do not care if we do not win.

Now Francona is a much better coach by far anyways so in the long run it may not have been bad, just we have to make sure we keep the FO and Coaches on the same page. As long as we have the current crew running the show we should actually be doing well. Hopefully though MLB doesn't keep moving up the luxury tax cap since that only makes it harder on the organization.



I have stated before that I didn't like how the team was being run since the Dolan's took over the team, but I also said since the younger Dolan has started running the team has been way better. We have been drafting a lot better and we are staying/looking in the right direction especially since we have a solid farm, with guys under team control. We have a good team now and we should for awhile if they keep making the correct moves. With Francona and Antoinette working together before he started to manage here and being friends really has helped keep the FO and the coach on the same page.

I go to games every single summer whether the team is good or bad, and the tickets can be dirt poor. If you get the tickets early they are really well priced, but if you try to get tickets near the game day they can get pricey. I have seen upper bleacher seats 40+ a piece for certain games. Anyone who decides the day of to go is no longer going. I know they gotta make money, but at times the tickets are a bit much. I'm a college student so I don't have a ton of extra cash and my dad is retired and he doesn't either. I usually just pick 6 games at the beginning of the season and those are the ones we go to and that's all I can afford since its an hour drive to a game.

The reason why some fans are calling the Dolan's cheap is because when we needed to sign free agents they felt we never did. If we had drafted well they wouldn't have cared, but since we didn't they wanted to bring in someone and since they didn't bring in any big name free agent for a fair amount of years. This got the fans frustrated especially after the years in the 90s when we didn't lose.

I sincerely wasn't happy with the FO mostly because they weren't making moves the small market teams needed to. We needed to go get a Doug Fister not a Jimenez, who would have likely taken a contract extension at the time. We really weren't making moves like we did for Lofton and Vizquel like we did in the early 90s. I think the one year not going to get a Pence really made the fans mad and they felt the FO wasn't supporting their views. Then not signing a Nelson Cruz, just added to the casual fans issues. The fans got mad at moves like that. We did make moves for Barfield and Jimenez, but they didn't pan out and fans look at that and not the idea behind it

Acta was a shitty manager for a shitty team. Why would you waste resources on making that team any better, when they were never capable of really doing anything? It was just a time for our younger guys to get reps, so we could figure out which ones were keepers. Laporta and Marte fell to the wayside while Kipnis, Santana, and Chisenhall found their way.

You keep saying that we've drafted better since the younger Dolan took over as if that should be a credit to him or an indictment on the elder Dolan. I'll say it again, the owners have nothing to do with our drafting.

The mid-90's teams never signed big FA's, and it rarely makes sense to sign any major pieces in free agency. I know you didn't say this was your thinking, but who cares what the dumb casual fan is thinking? We're building a championship organization, we can't make moves to appease the lowest common denominator.

Trading for Ubaldo was bad. It turned out ok since White busted, Pomeranz just now became a solid MLB player, and he helped us in 2013. And really? You wanted Fister at the time, or you wanted him in hindsight after he went 8-1 for the Tigers that year? And would you really have wanted him on an extension? He's been largely mediocre.

Trading the farm for Pence, or signing Nelson Cruz would have been worse. In Acta's years, we we're building the farm we have now. Those types of moves could have seen guys who are currently valuable sent away just so Acta could hover around .500. Nelson Cruz would have cost us our 2014 1st rounder. You know that, right? Bradley Zimmer? We wouldn't have him if we signed Cruz, and forfeited our pick.

We did make our Lofton and Vizquel trades. Trades got us Kluber, Santana, Brantley, Carrasco, and Gomes.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I go to games every single summer whether the team is good or bad, and the tickets can be dirt poor. If you get the tickets early they are really well priced, but if you try to get tickets near the game day they can get pricey. I have seen upper bleacher seats 40+ a piece for certain games. Anyone who decides the day of to go is no longer going. I know they gotta make money, but at times the tickets are a bit much. I'm a college student so I don't have a ton of extra cash and my dad is retired and he doesn't either. I usually just pick 6 games at the beginning of the season and those are the ones we go to and that's all I can afford since its an hour drive to a game.

I'm want to call this out before this gets carried away. I live downtown, and went to 20-something regular season games this year. The majority of those were situations where I got home, asked the wife what we felt like doing tonight, and decided to go to the Indians game.

You could always get either District for $13, Something in the bleachers for $12, or upper reserved for about $18. The only time I saw the prices jacked up was 30-something for upper reserved for the big weekend events towards the end of the year.

I'm not sure what happened where the cheapest ticket in the house was $40+ for you, but it must have been for like the Blue Jays series towards the end of the year. That's not the norm. Hell, upper reserved for the ALDS was only $53.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

The reason why some fans are calling the Dolan's cheap is because when we needed to sign free agents they felt we never did. If we had drafted well they wouldn't have cared, but since we didn't they wanted to bring in someone and since they didn't bring in any big name free agent for a fair amount of years. This got the fans frustrated especially after the years in the 90s when we didn't lose.

Your feelings are misplaced. Be mad at MLB and the MLBPA--not the Indians.

I sincerely wasn't happy with the FO mostly because they weren't making moves the small market teams needed to. We needed to go get a Doug Fister not a Jimenez, who would have likely taken a contract extension at the time. We really weren't making moves like we did for Lofton and Vizquel like we did in the early 90s. I think the one year not going to get a Pence really made the fans mad and they felt the FO wasn't supporting their views. Then not signing a Nelson Cruz, just added to the casual fans issues. The fans got mad at moves like that. We did make moves for Barfield and Jimenez, but they didn't pan out and fans look at that and not the idea behind it

This shit is fucking laughable. Obviously we weren't making moves like the Indians of the 90s. Nobody will probably ever get that lucky again. Do you understand that the 90s Indians were probably the best baseball team over an extended period that you'll ever see (even though they didn't win a WS)?

You're actually saying you're upset because we didn't pull off a heist like trading Eddie Taubensee for Kenny Lofton, or Felix Fermin for Omar Vizquel. You can't trade bums for hall of fame level players consistently (but look at the Casey Blake and all the Seattle deals to see that we're still robbing people blind occasionally).

The casual fan was thrilled when the Indians signed Swisher. That person's feelings shouldn't run an organization. If they can't understand that, maybe that's the root of the problem--there aren't enough intelligent people in the Indians's market, and small market baseball no longer appeals to the casual idiot.

 

[Derek]

Your feelings are misplaced. Be mad at MLB and the MLBPA--not the Indians.



This shit is fucking laughable. Obviously we weren't making moves like the Indians of the 90s. Nobody will probably ever get that lucky again. Do you understand that the 90s Indians were probably the best baseball team over an extended period that you'll ever see (even though they didn't win a WS)?

You're actually saying you're upset because we didn't pull off a heist like trading Eddie Taubensee for Kenny Lofton, or Felix Fermin for Omar Vizquel. You can't trade bums for hall of fame level players consistently (but look at the Casey Blake and all the Seattle deals to see that we're still robbing people blind occasionally).

The casual fan was thrilled when the Indians signed Swisher. That person's feelings shouldn't run an organization. If they can't understand that, maybe that's the root of the problem--there aren't enough intelligent people in the Indians's market, and small market baseball no longer appeals to the casual idiot.

Don't forget Kluber for Jake Westbrook or Yan Gomes for Esmil Rogers

 

[DJTJ]

Acta was a shitty manager for a shitty team. Why would you waste resources on making that team any better, when they were never capable of really doing anything? It was just a time for our younger guys to get reps, so we could figure out which ones were keepers. Laporta and Marte fell to the wayside while Kipnis, Santana, and Chisenhall found their way.

You keep saying that we've drafted better since the younger Dolan took over as if that should be a credit to him or an indictment on the elder Dolan. I'll say it again, the owners have nothing to do with our drafting.

The mid-90's teams never signed big FA's, and it rarely makes sense to sign any major pieces in free agency. I know you didn't say this was your thinking, but who cares what the dumb casual fan is thinking? We're building a championship organization, we can't make moves to appease the lowest common denominator.

Trading for Ubaldo was bad. It turned out ok since White busted, Pomeranz just now became a solid MLB player, and he helped us in 2013. And really? You wanted Fister at the time, or you wanted him in hindsight after he went 8-1 for the Tigers that year? And would you really have wanted him on an extension? He's been largely mediocre.

Trading the farm for Pence, or signing Nelson Cruz would have been worse. In Acta's years, we we're building the farm we have now. Those types of moves could have seen guys who are currently valuable sent away just so Acta could hover around .500. Nelson Cruz would have cost us our 2014 1st rounder. You know that, right? Bradley Zimmer? We wouldn't have him if we signed Cruz, and forfeited our pick.

We did make our Lofton and Vizquel trades. Trades got us Kluber, Santana, Brantley, Carrasco, and Gomes.

Alex White couldn't stay healthy, he didn't bust.

My cousin was his pitching coach from freshman year until college, and I've met him three or four times. Stuff was always there. The Andrew Miller finger issue and the multiple TJ were the actual issue.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Alex White couldn't stay healthy, he didn't bust.

My cousin was his pitching coach from freshman year until college, and I've met him three or four times. Stuff was always there. The Andrew Miller finger issue and the multiple TJ were the actual issue.

I think you mean Adam

 

[Derek]

Alex White couldn't stay healthy, he didn't bust.

My cousin was his pitching coach from freshman year until college, and I've met him three or four times. Stuff was always there. The Andrew Miller finger issue and the multiple TJ were the actual issue.

Same thing. I'm well aware of his health issues.

 

[DJTJ]

I think you mean Adam

Typo my mistake