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jup

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Wooooah, the pitching thread got bombarded. Must have hit a nerve.

A couple quick general responses.

Sinkers (which are basically 2 seams) are on the decline and will probably remain that way. It has to do with 4 seams having more apparent "rise" (less downward action) and missing barrels. In the new high def era of spin rates aided by "stickey", K's and popups are king for todays pitchers. And 4 seams up in the zone produce, sinkers down don't.

Bauer was the flagship bearer for this whole trend of more breaking balls less FB's. Came from that guy Perry Husband and the research he did on hitters. Took many more kids that followed this new line of thinking before it became more widely accepted like it is today. And it was the outside institutions, like Driveline and pitching ninja, that put so much stuff up on social which young pitchers follow, that really turned the tide. It is only the start of the wave coming through, but it won't be long before it is common place across the board.
 

jup

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But then the hitters will adjust and start sitting on the breaking ball.

By the way, what do you think of Maton? Last night he was throwing hook after hook and they couldn't hit it. He mixed in an occasional fastball for show but he attacked the hitters with his curve, which was much more effective than his fastball last year.

Since coming over from the Padres Maton's line in Cleveland is:

16.1 IP, 8 H, 4 ER, 6 BB, 18 K, 0.86 WHIP

Not bad. Last night he struck out Abreu on three pitches, then got another K and a pop out in the bottom of the 9th with the score tied. According to Fangraphs he is throwing his fastball 36.7% of the time this year against a career figure of 64.3%. His fastball percentages the last four years are interesting: 76%, 61.2%, 57.4% and 36.7% in four appearances this year. He's definitely bought into the whole spin thing and it's working for him so far.

His swinging strike percentage is 20.0% this year after 11.7% last year and 13.3% career.

I'm wondering if the Indians unearthed another gem here. Dude had a 7.77 ERA with the Padres last year when we scooped him up in exchange for some international bonus money.

Edit: Hoynes brought out these numbers on Maton from Baseball Savant a while back:

[Phil Maton’s] fastball ranked in the 99th percentile and his curve in the 84th percentile [in spin rate] last season.

The spin helped the curve. The fastball not so much. Last year the opposition hit .135 (5-for-37) against Maton’s curve. They hit .329 (26-for-76) against his fastball.


Looks like he's buying into the idea that the fewer fastballs he throws the better. His cutter usage is up from 3% in 2018 to 40% this year and about 23% for the curve.
Can't say as I have watched Maton pitch really. I focus more on starters rather than relievers. It is more interesting to see the chess game play out over more innings and times through the lineup and that just doesn't happen with relievers for the most part. So my interest level just falls.

But like all fans, I have a few relievers I will stay tuned in for. Chapman being one. Gas is still gas and is fun as hell to watch.
 

jup

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No idea where this is coming from? No one is upset and every post has been about pitching...
It wasn't a NEGATIVE - geeesh

When I have thrown something up before, it didn't come with this much response, that is all. I am glad people are interested in pitching, why else would I spend the time to put stuff up if I didn't want them to be.
 

Benway

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It wasn't a NEGATIVE - geeesh

When I have thrown something up before, it didn't come with this much response, that is all. I am glad people are interested in pitching, why else would I spend the time to put stuff up if I didn't want them to be.
It's all very good stuff, I've been left mostly speechless! Please keep it coming.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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It wasn't a NEGATIVE - geeesh

When I have thrown something up before, it didn't come with this much response, that is all. I am glad people are interested in pitching, why else would I spend the time to put stuff up if I didn't want them to be.
"Bombarded" and "hit a nerve" each have negative connotation, as they're most often used in a negative way.

It's all good--I thought the same thing as @Urban.

I'm glad to see the pitching thread get more discussion. The insight has been awesome. I think the "rise" as well as the increased velocity of the 4-seamer makes it the king of the fastballs. I also think we're going to see pitching move in circles. Batters are going to come up learning how to hit certain pitches, and pitchers are going to start throwing different things that the current hitters struggle with.
 

Criznit

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"Bombarded" and "hit a nerve" each have negative connotation, as they're most often used in a negative way.

It's all good--I thought the same thing as @Urban.

I'm glad to see the pitching thread get more discussion. The insight has been awesome. I think the "rise" as well as the increased velocity of the 4-seamer makes it the king of the fastballs. I also think we're going to see pitching move in circles. Batters are going to come up learning how to hit certain pitches, and pitchers are going to start throwing different things that the current hitters struggle with.

And the cutter... A plus plus cutter is going to be a top notch pitch for the foreseeable future.
 

jup

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"Bombarded" and "hit a nerve" each have negative connotation, as they're most often used in a negative way.

It's all good--I thought the same thing as @Urban.

I'm glad to see the pitching thread get more discussion. The insight has been awesome. I think the "rise" as well as the increased velocity of the 4-seamer makes it the king of the fastballs. I also think we're going to see pitching move in circles. Batters are going to come up learning how to hit certain pitches, and pitchers are going to start throwing different things that the current hitters struggle with.
You could be right about the connotations, didn't really stop to think about it - not much of a language person as you have probably guessed already - math and science rule in my world.

Lets try :
It is wonderful to see that when I hop back on the site, the pitching thread has got lots of response (bombarded). Must have hit the right topic (hit a nerve) that people feel strongly enough about for this much participation. :celb (7):
 

jup

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And the cutter... A plus plus cutter is going to be a top notch pitch for the foreseeable future.
Out of the Rafters said
I think the "rise" as well as the increased velocity of the 4-seamer makes it the king of the fastballs
Yes both of these things are true as part of the modern day pitching environ.

The 4s and cutter have enough distinction movement wise, and profile differently enough speed wise, that they are a natural pairing, for the type of arsenals that will have continued success in the big leagues. Starting pitchers will need to have and use both, unless they have an offering that is so many standard deviations off the norm that they can survive on that alone.

That would be a guy like Castillo over on the Reds, where he basically throws a FB and CH. The FB (speed) and CH (movement profile) are both far enough from league average, that it allows him to get by with just those two offerings. But if he loses anything on that FB (mph wise) he will be in real trouble. Because it is the combination of the speed of his FB with that CH that makes it so effective.
 
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Out of the Rafters at the Q

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You could be right about the connotations, didn't really stop to think about it - not much of a language person as you have probably guessed already - math and science rule in my world.

Lets try :
It is wonderful to see that when I hop back on the site, the pitching thread has got lots of response (bombarded). Must have hit the right topic (hit a nerve) that people feel strongly enough about for this much participation. :celb (7):
I'm with you there.

I also have learned over time how it can rub people the wrong way and try to craft my language in terms that are less off-putting.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Be as crass, blunt, and indifferent as you want. I just wanted to chime in with the way other people could view it.
 

jup

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I'm with you there.

I also have learned over time how it can rub people the wrong way and try to craft my language in terms that are less off-putting.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Be as crass, blunt, and indifferent as you want. I just wanted to chime in with the way other people could view it.
I try, at least most of the time :furious: , as my wife has reminded me about the importance of language for so many years. But as I have gotten older, I just don't seem to care as much, and just let it fly more often. Diplomacy holds little interest for me. ;)
 

jup

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Great read on spin rate/spin efficiency and the use of the high speed camera that Bauer brought to baseball so many years ago.

The league is definitely catching up. The technology is here to stay. Part of the new lexicon of pitching, and a huge advantage to small market teams that really get it. The Rays clearly using the stuff that was being researched about 4 years back in the really progressive circles of pitching. Great to see


 

xmasbuck

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Yes both of these things are true as part of the modern day pitching environ.

The 4s and cutter have enough distinction movement wise, and profile differently enough speed wise, that they are a natural pairing, for the type of arsenals that will have continued success in the big leagues. Starting pitchers will need to have and use both, unless they have an offering that is so many standard deviations off the norm that they can survive on that alone.

That would be a guy like Castillo over on the Reds, where he basically throws a FB and CH. The FB (speed) and CH (movement profile) are both far enough from league average, that it allows him to get by with just those two offerings. But if he loses anything on that FB (mph wise) he will be in real trouble. Because it is the combination of the speed of his FB with that CH that makes it so effective.
i've kinda wondered about castillo - for as highly thought of as he is, he's pushing 100 starts in his career with an FIP near 4 and a losing record - perhaps the lack of a 3rd pitch is keeping him from being elite?
 

jup

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i've kinda wondered about castillo - for as highly thought of as he is, he's pushing 100 starts in his career with an FIP near 4 and a losing record - perhaps the lack of a 3rd pitch is keeping him from being elite?
From a repertoire standpoint for sure.

He is a lot like Biebs was when he came up, just has elite stuff which Biebs did not. Biebs has improved tremendously on the repertoire side. Castillo hasn't.

So Biebs WAS a 2 pitch pitcher, SL/FB, Castillo IS a 2 pitch pitcher CH/FB. Castillo throws it 90/99, Biebs like 87/93. Castillo can survive on 2 pitches in that ELITE SPEED range, Biebs couldn't. Biebs did a great job of trapping hitters between those 2 pitches speed wise when he came up. Castillo still does. The difference is Biebs added to his bag of tricks and now he beats them slower with his CB, and further traps them speed wise with a cutter so he can continue to beat them at the fast end with his FB.

Biebs now has the arsenal to be an ELITE PITCHER for the longevity of his career, Castillo will have good results as long as he keeps running it up there 99. He has elite stuff. There is a difference between elite stuff and elite pitcher.
 
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