Pitching

[Lee]

My grandpa was an engineer at Goodyear. He wrote his thesis on the elasticity of rubber to graduate from MIT. My aunt has it, which I hope to inherit down the line, he died when I was very young and I don't have many memories of him.

My Dad was an Engineer at Firestone, he retired 15 years ago, but he was the Head Engineer on the largest tire testing machine in the world. To this day he still goes on tours every now and then of the plant where the tire testing machine is. He likes to quiz the tour guide on the facts about the machine. Engineers are a special breed for sure, lol.

 

[jup]

Ideally, we'll see pitchers try and hide the curve more inside their tunnel of other pitches. Bieber throwing two different curveballs is a huge step, and one that we might see in a future generation of young pitchers.

We used to be so caught up with throwing your "best" pitch. Well, maybe the best pitch doesn't lead to the best pitcher. A guy with the best fastball and no other pitches isn't going to be able to beat major league hitters the way a guy with a better mix can. A kid with the "best" curveball might be less effective than a kid who can throw two curves that batters can't tell apart.

I'm not so sure he is throwing 2 different CBs, from a movement/speed standpoint

His slider has always looked a lot like a CB, given the vertical break on it. So many times it is hard for announcers and viewers to distinguish. What has changed is he is throwing a cutter this year and that is hard for viewers/announcers to distinguish at times from his slider.

Bieb's has copied Bauer, same repertoire.

In '19 he was a FB/SL pitcher and towards the end of the year, within the division, some teams started to catch on that you can't get stuck in between. He started to have some rocky starts. This year they are looking for the same thing, but he added a pitch above his slider (cutter) both speed and movement wise and started relying on his CB more (below his slider speed and movement wise) so now they can't sit FB or SL only. Has made A HUGE DIFFERENCE in his results and probably saved him from having a very pedestrian year.

Now with his slider and cutter between his CB/FB speed and movement wise, he beats them slower much more often as his SO on his CB have soared while his % SO on FB and SL have reseeded.

Ultimately, I think you are still looking at a SL and a CB that makes it look like 2 different CB's now that he throws a cutter which many fans/announcers mistake for his slider.

 

[jup]

My Dad was an Engineer at Firestone, he retired 15 years ago, but he was the Head Engineer on the largest tire testing machine in the world. To this day he still goes on tours every now and then of the plant where the tire testing machine is. He likes to quiz the tour guide on the facts about the machine. Engineers are a special breed for sure, lol.

Gotta throw down the love on us Engineers LEE

 

[jup]

One interesting thing to note (at least to me) about my Biebs post above is his FB usage this year - 34%.

Man do I remember when the Indians had ABSOLUTE CANNIPTIONS when Bauer told them that the ideal FB percentage was around 40% back in '14. You would have thought the sky had just fallen. Mickey was so enraged and so sure that FB % had to be up above 60% that he told the catchers to only put down 1. If Bauer shakes put it down again. If he shakes again put it down again - to force Bauer to throw FBs. The fallout between Callaway and Bauer played out all season and nearly ruined any relation between Gomes and Bauer. Wasn't long before Berto was catching Bauer almost exclusively.

My how times have changed in the Indians organization, and how little credit Bauer gets for being the flag bearer for those changes.

 

[Derek]

One interesting thing to note (at least to me) about my Biebs post above is his FB usage this year - 34%.

Man do I remember when the Indians had ABSOLUTE CANNIPTIONS when Bauer told them that the ideal FB percentage was around 40% back in '14. You would have thought the sky had just fallen. Mickey was so enraged and so sure that FB % had to be up above 60% that he told the catchers to only put down 1. If Bauer shakes put it down again. If he shakes again put it down again - to force Bauer to throw FBs. The fallout between Callaway and Bauer played out all season and nearly ruined any relation between Gomes and Bauer. Wasn't long before Berto was catching Bauer almost exclusively.

My how times have changed in the Indians organization, and how little credit Bauer gets for being the flag bearer for those changes.

When we played Cincy, the Cleveland broadcast did like a five minute segment on the lasting impact Bauer made on the pitching staff here.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I'm not so sure he is throwing 2 different CBs, from a movement/speed standpoint

His slider has always looked a lot like a CB, given the vertical break on it. So many times it is hard for announcers and viewers to distinguish. What has changed is he is throwing a cutter this year and that is hard for viewers/announcers to distinguish at times from his slider.

Bieb's has copied Bauer, same repertoire.

In '19 he was a FB/SL pitcher and towards the end of the year, within the division, some teams started to catch on that you can't get stuck in between. He started to have some rocky starts. This year they are looking for the same thing, but he added a pitch above his slider (cutter) both speed and movement wise and started relying on his CB more (below his slider speed and movement wise) so now they can't sit FB or SL only. Has made A HUGE DIFFERENCE in his results and probably saved him from having a very pedestrian year.

Now with his slider and cutter between his CB/FB speed and movement wise, he beats them slower much more often as his SO on his CB have soared while his % SO on FB and SL have reseeded.

Ultimately, I think you are still looking at a SL and a CB that makes it look like 2 different CB's now that he throws a cutter which many fans/announcers mistake for his slider.

My "two curveball" comment came from this piece: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/shane-biebers-new-old-curve/

 

[Lee]

Gotta throw down the love on us Engineers LEE

My Mom's Dad was an engineer, my Dad was an engineer and I went to Purdue.....although I got a degree in accounting and finance, I know engineer's. Once you told me you were an engineer you made complete sense. I have said before Bauer would have been an Engineer or something along the lines if his arm just wasn't so talented.

I actually get your love for Bauer, not many athletes think like you, but Bauer does. I could have gone the Engineering route and thought about it one time, my Dad was a bit disappointed i didnt because of how exceptional in math and science i was, but i have a very good career in mortgages instead.

I know i have derailed the pitching thread and will get back on topic, but one of the great things about RCF is how much a community we are and we love getting to know each other, i have been here for over 15 years. I love all of the new guys, you included for sure, that have come over to the Indians section (and others). You guys bring a great knowledge to the game and your passion for baseball is amazing........further, you personally are so like the engineer's in my family and i love it, lol.

PS, thanks again for sharing your pitching knowledge like you do.

 

[jup]

My "two curveball" comment came from this piece: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/shane-biebers-new-old-curve/

Notice how it never talks about a cutter and the cutter never shows up on his graph ????

But Biebs cutter usage is 20.7% of the time this year and it is just about 3 mph faster than his slider.

Net result is his slider has changed negligibly (from a pitching perspective) over the years, but he has added a cutter. And what the FanGraphs guy is calling 2 CBs are his CB and SL. What he is calling his slider is a cutter. And if you look at the spin dynamics, the cutter designation is the proper one.

But thanks for the post about the CBs it was an interesting and sometimes humor-ish read which I had not seen.

Nice try FanGraphs guy.

 

[jup]

When we played Cincy, the Cleveland broadcast did like a five minute segment on the lasting impact Bauer made on the pitching staff here.

Too bad I missed it, would have been fun to listen to.

Maybe I will go back in the archives and see if I find it. But I doubt it as any segments that are not done while the game is actually going, are not archived on MLB.TV. And if it was pregame local, then only the FOX affiliate would have carried it. It is MLB.TV for me out here in CA.

 

[Sebastian]

@jup, I like the cut of your jib.

 

[MirORich]

I have ZERO capability to add to the high quality of this discussion but I am salivating at the thought of next years full season with a possible staff of Bieber, Cookie, Civale, Plesac, and McKenzie with a bullpen of Karinchak, Claase, and Wittgren

Maybe grab another power bullpen arm in the offseason trade of Clevenger too.

It's cool to finally have developed an identity that is consistent over several years. Just like we used to look at the Cardinals and be jealous of their consistent pipeline of quality homegrown starting pitching, the same thing has developed here, really going back to that first run back in I think 2013-2014 when Kluber, Bauer, Carasco, and Salazar all started breaking out together.

 

[chuck0609]

I have ZERO capability to add to the high quality of this discussion but I am salivating at the thought of next years full season with a possible staff of Bieber, Cookie, Civale, Plesac, and McKenzie with a bullpen of Karinchak, Claase, and Wittgren

Maybe grab another power bullpen arm in the offseason trade of Clevenger too.

It's cool to finally have developed an identity that is consistent over several years. Just like we used to look at the Cardinals and be jealous of their consistent pipeline of quality homegrown starting pitching, the same thing has developed here, really going back to that first run back in I think 2013-2014 when Kluber, Bauer, Carasco, and Salazar all started breaking out together.

Having the ability to reload a pitching staff year after year is priceless for this organization. Right now it’s the lifeline.

 

[LL3]

Having the ability to reload a pitching staff year after year is priceless for this organization. Right now it’s the lifeline.

It is what they do...every bit their identity in their lower $ world.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

@jup or anyone else... any thoughts on Triston McKenzie's mechanics? To me, it looks like he kind of snaps off the pitch at the end in a way that worries me.

Just trying to see if what I'm seeing is a thing, or if I'm making shit up.

 

[petes999]

So ... what are Chris and Tito doing with the starting pitching. Zack M said it more clearly than Mandy ... but McK stays in rotation and gets at least one more start. They don't know about the starter on Wed. Can be Plutko or someone else.....

By now you know what you are going to do with Clevinger and Plesac. You come out and either say that they have done their time (seen good improvement on maturity) or you say that they have been optioned for a period longer than 10 days that has been discussed with them already but stays in the locker room. To let this linger beyond today is to start creating questions in the locker room where Plutko, Leone, Clevinger and Plesac are wondering about their status on the club and trade/waiver issues.

Even if you are considering moving Cookie to the pen if he cannot find his form today ... you can say that Clev and Plesac have done their time and having 7 men all capable of filling the 5/6 slots in the rotation is a problem that many teams would love to have. Thus, for now, we are penciling in Clevinger for Wednesday and looking for how to juggle the rest for next weekend. At least, you are making known that the two are with the team and you are not considering trading them unless like every other player (you get blown out of the water). But, to stay silent, is just letting rumors to start and flourish.

Someone yelled at me on another site that trying to trade Kluber and/or Bauer during all the off-season was letting the uncertainty linger too long and effect the guys. The poster was saying no way do professional players like Bauer let things like a prolong rumor mill affect their performance ... ahhh .... between that and injuries (trying to prove his worth by fighting through them) ... I think any extra disruption is never worth it. No one wants to be left dangling in the wind for too long. Even look at Lindor, I think he has been trying to press too much to set himself up for next off season.

A good manager/gm sets the expectations and let the players know where they stand (and public when needed to keep the twitter rumors at bay).