RCF 2021 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

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Who gets your vote?


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Criznit

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There was certainly a time, fairly recently even where at least 10% of the league (a minimum of 4 to 5 players per 40 man roster) were juiced. I suspect every team currently has at least 1 user on their 40 man.
 

The Human Q-Tip

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Oh I don't have much sympathy for them, don't get me wrong, but you also can't ignore what they did. Barry Bonds turned from a contender for top 25 all time into a video game creation, numbers that probably will never be able to be matched. McGwire crushed a hallowed record and is arguably the greatest pure power hitter of all time. I just don't think we can pretend they didn't exist, that we didn't enjoy the hell out of it, and that the numbers didn't happen because they did. That's why I think one year, no real ceremony, usher in that group all at once and call it a day.

Those records won't be matched because those guys were taking illegal substances that distorted the competitive balance of the game.

If someone wants to make an argument that guys are deserving even if you exclude the time frame during which they were roided up...well, I wouldn't agree, but I do think that's a reasonable argument to make.

What I don't understand is the argument you seem to be making -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- which is that their extreme levels of performance while they were taking those banned performance enhancing-substances is the reason they shouldn't be excluded. That is about as direct a reward for cheating as you can get.
 

Stark

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No PED guys for me still. Standing by that.

Of this group, I'm honestly only voting Wagner. One of the (the?) best lefty relievers of all time. Absolutely filthy at his peak. One of six guys with at least 400 saves, and one of only two lefties (John Franco).

Helton, Rolen, Jones, all Hall of Very, Very Good guys. Vizquel would've gotten the nod, but the recent DV allegations have tainted him.

Also let Pete Rose in, so my ballot is Wagner and Rose.
 
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sportscoach

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No PED guys for me still. Standing by that.

Of this group, I'm honestly only voting Wagner. One of the (the?) best lefty relievers of all time. Absolutely filthy at his peak. One of six guys with at least 400 saves, and one of only two lefties (John Franco).

Helton, Rolen, Jones, all Hall of Very, Very Good guys. Vizquel would've gotten the nod, but the recent DV allegations have tainted him.

Also let Pete Rose in, so my ballot is Wagner and Rose.

Wagner just ended up short for me. I have been running OOTP so i get to vote their every season.

Bullpen arms in the modern era are really a grey area. He is short in every category for the hall, but no one can question he was one of the most dominate bullpen arms in the modern era.

Rest of those guys are in the same boat, they all have good numbers in certain areas, but not a sure bet cause of it.

Rose should have been in years ago...
 

CATS44

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My comment on Cooperstown is that its a far better HOF than the Pro Football HOF...because a player for the most part has to be truly elite over a long time to get into Cooperstown, which is not the case in Canton.

This years vote, in spite of the controversy over steroids and Schilling prove the point. Nobody made it, and its happened nine times in history. In contrast, a minimum HAVE to be added every year in Canton.

One example, a player I liked very much, is Larry Czonka, who was very good for two years, but merely good the rest of the time. No way would he be HOF material had he been a baseball player.

On another football note, when speaking of pro football dynasties, there is only one true dynasty...the 1946-1955 Browns. Ten years, ten title games, seven championships, the equivalent to today's Super Bowls. And any talk of greatest all time QBs has to include Otto Graham. He played in a championship game every year he played...and won seven of them.

I live near the Pro Football HOF, and as a kid I visited it all the time, before it was a big deal. The film room back then was merely a room full of metal folding chairs, and we could request anything we wanted to watch. We watched nearly every Browns game from that early era.

If you get a chance to watch film of Graham and film of Joe Montana, you will see the exact same player. Its eerie. They were both very athletic, both former basketball players (Graham was an All American and played some pro bball), and both could dunk a basketball two handed backwards.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled baseball talk.
 

Ravennod

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No way Bonds, Clemens, Sosa or Omar should EVER be elected to the HOF!

PED Stars and Abusers should never get in!
 

Lee

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No way Bonds, Clemens, Sosa or Omar should EVER be elected to the HOF!

PED Stars and Abusers should never get in!

My issue is everyone from that era is a suspect, literally everyone, Bonds for example never got caught, he had ties and we all knew he most likely took them, but we live in a country where innocent till proven guilty, on top of that the baseball writers are complete assholes and I hate how baseball votes on their HOF, but that is sort of a different discussion.
 

sportscoach

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No way Bonds, Clemens, Sosa or Omar should EVER be elected to the HOF!

PED Stars and Abusers should never get in!

You know there is a fair amount of baseball players in the Hall that were abusers in real life correct? Mantle wasn't a good man when he drank and he drank often... Omar also hasnt been proven guilty of anything yet, just charged. I will wait until once the trial is up to say one way or the other.
 

Ravennod

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You know there is a fair amount of baseball players in the Hall that were abusers in real life correct? Mantle wasn't a good man when he drank and he drank often... Omar also hasnt been proven guilty of anything yet, just charged. I will wait until once the trial is up to say one way or the other.
Yes, I know there are plenty of low character guys in the HOF, goes without saying.

But while Mantle was a drinker and a party guy, at least he didn’t do PED’s to get to the Hall. And anyone else who is in the Hall that did PED’s has no business there.

As for Omar, I loved him as a player, but way too much smoke about his abuse issues.
 

sportscoach

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Yes, I know there are plenty of low character guys in the HOF, goes without saying.

But while Mantle was a drinker and a party guy, at least he didn’t do PED’s to get to the Hall. And anyone else who is in the Hall that did PED’s has no business there.

As for Omar, I loved him as a player, but way too much smoke about his abuse issues.

Omar's ex-wife said he never once abused her or did anything like the one women who is accusing him of it. You would think the ex-wife would say something if he actually did something like that ya know?

Now I agree to the PEDs to an extent. The question is what was the percentage of people taking PEDs, both hitters and pitchers and if both sides took it in heavy amounts, wouldn't that make the playing field even?
 

Benway

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The question is what was the percentage of people taking PEDs, both hitters and pitchers and if both sides took it in heavy amounts, wouldn't that make the playing field even?

It is, I imagine, shockingly high. I assume players of all sports who use or have used routinely is nearly 100%. The potential results are simply irresistible, and the peer pressure astronomical.
 

sportscoach

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It is, I imagine, shockingly high. I assume players of all sports who use or have used routinely is nearly 100%. The potential results are simply irresistible, and the peer pressure astronomical.

Then the biggest question is, if both sides used it, then are the numbers unfair? Should the best players from the Era get voted in or no since its likely majority where using it.
 

Benway

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Then the biggest question is, if both sides used it, then are the numbers unfair? Should the best players from the Era get voted in or no since its likely majority where using it.

The unfair numbers "competition" only exists between eras, but that's exactly what the Hall is about.
The decisions can't be arrived at objectively, only subjectively.
This means that virtually Everything is "Fair".

It's the Hall of "Fame". It's not part of MLB. It's under the control of the creators of "fame": the media. (Sports media in this case, a certainly dubious judge)

If you're famous you go in... unless you embarrass them. Skill and success aren't a large part of the equation.
 

sportscoach

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The unfair numbers "competition" only exists between eras, but that's exactly what the Hall is about.
The decisions can't be arrived at objectively, only subjectively.
This means that virtually Everything is "Fair".

It's the Hall of "Fame". It's not part of MLB. It's under the control of the creators of "fame": the media. (Sports media in this case, a certainly dubious judge)

If you're famous you go in... unless you embarrass them. Skill and success aren't a large part of the equation.

That can be part of the issue as well hence why a person like Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson etc won't get in. It should be baseball talent and numbers, not who they like the best. I mean Loften has what 68 something WAR via baseball reference, and almost no one nowadays will get close to that in the new era in my mind, outside of Mike Trout type.

In a few years, we also have to debate about the modern era of only 33/34 starts a season here soon. No one will ever get to 300 wins again, so what category for starters is something we look at for numbers? 200 wins? WAR above a certain number? etc. Times are changing so I hope the writers get that
 

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