RCF Baseball Hall of Fame Vote

[Derek]

My two favorite players during the duration of the Indians run were Lofton and Omar. Kenny was a great player everywhere he played on offense and defense. I'll ask you this though:

Edgar Martinez was a DH and is in the HOF only for his offensive contributions. Is it really that far- fetched to say the statistically best shortstop of all time shouldn't get in for his defense alone? I think Omar will get in, and he helped himself by switching to the Giants at the end of his career. Voters in the AL and NL had the chance to watch his excellence defensively.

Edgar's hitting was far more valuable than Omar's fielding. The guy was absolutely ridiculous at the plate, and was actually a solid 3B prior to tearing his hammy in '93. So yeah, he deserves it a lot more.

And no, Omar is not the statistically best SS of all-time. He'll probably get in eventually, and I'll be ecstatic as an Indians fan, but he's more Aparicio than Ozzie.

 

[Randolphkeys]

And no, Omar is not the statistically best SS of all-time. He'll probably get in eventually, and I'll be ecstatic as an Indians fan, but he's more Aparicio than Ozzie.

Jose Iglasias jumped ahead this year in all time fielding percentage, but he also has 17 less years of fielding on his resume. Omar kept playing and his percentage dipped in his mid-40s... but likely will remain the highest fielding percentage for the longest duration. Any other measures can be argued in a similar fashion. Advanced statistics - like all statistics - are a tool that can be used or ignored depending upon the person's intentions.

But as you said, Omar is likely getting in. Thanks for agreeing.

 

[Derek]

Lofton:
2103 G
.299/.372/.423
109 wRC+
622 SB (79.1%)
62.4 fWAR
68.3 bWAR (15.5 dWAR)


Raines:
2502 G
.294/.385/.425
125 wRC+
808 SB (84.6%)
66.4 fWAR
69.4 bWAR (-8.6 dWAR)


Very similar hitters although Lofton played during an offensive boom, so his numbers relative to league average are hurt, but that's reflected in the wRC+ and WAR. Raines edges him out on the basepaths because he's the best runner ever not named Rickey Henderson. Where Lofton makes up the gap is defensively where Raines was passable, and Lofton was elite.

Here's another one for you...

Lou Brock:
2616 G
.293/.343/.410
109 wRC+
938 SB (75.3%)
43.2 fWAR
45.3 bWAR (-16.8 dWAR)

 

[Juice is Loose]

If people want to hold Larry Walker out because “he played at Coors”, why even have a team there? Any good player that comes through Colorado will have inflated numbers due to elevation. If that keeps them out of the hall because of where they played, something needs to be fixed.

 

[Derek]

If people want to hold Larry Walker out because “he played at Coors”, why even have a team there? Any good player that comes through Colorado will have inflated numbers due to elevation. If that keeps them out of the hall because of where they played, something needs to be fixed.

Preaching to the choir. Coors or no Coors he was a superstar.

wRC+ accounts for ballpark factors and league climate, yet he still clocks in at a career wRC+ of 140 which puts him right in line with Hall of Famers Chipper Jones, Reggie Jackson, and Vlad Guerrero

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Want some one to blame for the steroid period? Blame the commissioner and the rest of the executives of baseball.

Well, that's the popular myth, isn't it? Everyone wants to blame the fatcat owners because nobody likes them. And nobody wants to blame the "hardworking union man," who in this particular case were the baseball players.

Except that's precisely who should be blamed.

Drug testing is a term and condition of employment. By law, baseball owners/MLB couldn't change that without bargaining with the player's union. And for a lot of years, MLBPA -- the player's union whose representatives were elected by the players themselves -- wouldn't agree to MLB wanting more strict testing, and wouldn't agree to more strict penalties. So, it didn't happen. Effective testing for PED's only happened when enough players decided that they wanted PED's out of baseball, and so were willing to support the changes to the CBA necessary for that to happen.

The pressure from Congress and fans is what convinced MLBPA to agree to the more stringent testing procedures.

Some enterprising law student wrote a pretty good Note on MLB's drug testing policy and history. It gives a good background regarding the problem the owners faced in trying to implement an effective drug policy -- specifically, foot-dragging/resistance from the player's union.

http://lawreview.colorado.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/13.-85.1-Weber_Final_Web.pdf

 

[sportscoach]

Also with the "Steroid Era" one of the first to admit the issue was a pitcher and not a hitter. IT will be a bit hard to add the numbers from the Era without some asterisk beside it, but it was way more common in the league than they probably want to admit so it was a fairly level playing field in that sense. I would put a good bet most players took something, either intentionally or unintentionally during that era since it was so easy to probably get ahold of and a lot of players probably took something illegal technically during that time cause of it. I cannot expect any player to be 100% clean, so I would base it off of, would have a player from a talent stand point have been a Hall of Famer? Guys like Bonds, Manny, A-Rod would have been a top player when it comes to batting in any era with or without the roids. Not sure if I would vote them in, but I wouldn't have a huge issue if they got in either.

 

[JayDD1972]

I’m tired of the debate over Pete Rose, 100% over it.
Same with Bonds. I mean for fucks sake, look at what they did prior to their fuck ups. Jesus

Pete Rose not being in is an absolute travesty. I will never get why gambling has anything to do with what he did on the field. A monster of a player.

 

[sportscoach]

Pete Rose not being in is an absolute travesty. I will never get why gambling has anything to do with what he did on the field. A monster of a player.

Selig was always against gambling and baseball mixing. He never would allow an owner, regardless of money at their disposal, to buy a baseball team if they owned a casino.

Essentially it’s taboo in the baseball world to be caught betting especially if you are a player or coach currently involved in the game. It always has been and for a long time, always will be.

Now the younger writers and groups don’t care about that tradition as much, but until the older writers have retired, it’s a good probability he never gets in. Now when the younger generation gets control, things may change. I agree though the best hitter of all time isn’t in the hall of fame is a travesty especially when guys like Mantle are in who were alcoholics and destructive towards their own families. I think in due time Rose will get in, but it won’t be until he is at the end of his life/after he has passed on.

 

[Cassity14]

Pete Rose not being in is an absolute travesty. I will never get why gambling has anything to do with what he did on the field. A monster of a player.

The hall of fame is about the best to ever represent the sport. It's more than simply playing.

What Rose did, and then his continual lying about it, has tarnished his legacy. I don't believe he should be in.

 

[bob2the2nd]

The hall of fame is about the best to ever represent the sport. It's more than simply playing.

What Rose did, and then his continual lying about it, has tarnished his legacy. I don't believe he should be in.

yes because of course there are no members of the HOF that one could argue are of questionable morality

 

[Cassity14]

yes because of course there are no members of the HOF that one could argue are of questionable morality

How many gambled on the sport, let alone on the team they were managing?

Not sure how much more direct it gets when discussing shit you can do to poorly represent the league.

Should Joe Jackson get in too?