Small Market Teams, Red States, and how Dan Gilbert being friends with Trump lost us Lebron

Cavatt

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Insiders have hinted before that Lebron was no fan of Gilbert and one of those reasons is he is good buddies with Trump.

This basically got laughed off and some people disagreed with me in S34 that this is true, but being in red states really hampers your ability to keep stars. Let's looka t the evidence.

Utah most recently had the Wetsbrook fan situation where a fan was said to have said very nasty racist things to Westbrook. This is well-known that Utah is one of the worst places to play for Black players. Here is first person account of it. People make fun of Utah having a "white team" and while it is not like they don't have black players, I think the fans are very comfortable having it that way.


People whine and whine about small markets not getting enough love from stars, but I think it is part of a larger problem. As Ohioans know, brain drain is real problem in the midwest where lots of people go to school, but the smartest and best students leave for greener pastures.

Well, they have tried tax cuts for years to lure employment to the south and midwest. The most extreme of these are Kentucky, Kansas and Louisiana and they have continued to cut taxes while their infrastructure has crumbled and air and water quality have suffered. Now their students in primary and secondary are the worst in the nation while all the talented people from these places leave the first chance they get. My point is that Lebron leaving Cleveland isn't any different than when I moved away as soon as I was done at Case Western Reserve.

If you want a vibrant multicultural community you invest in public spaces, the arts, and things that attract people to your city. Both Cleveland and Pittsburgh have made major inroads in these areas. Investing in tax cuts seems like it will attract employers, but more and more employers are leaving cheap tax havens because they can't find the talent. You want to encourage local talent and not lure huge companies to your state.


I mean we have tried the tax cuts thing for 3-4 decades now and Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky are largely in the same place. Losing their best brightest to the bigger markets, including Lebron.
 

MediumBaller

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Lebron didn't leave because Gilbert "likes" Trump. Gilbert didn't even vote for Trump. LeBron left because his family wanted to live in LA, and he obliged. It's as simple as that. It didn't have anything to do with Ohio being a "red state". The vast majority of NBA teams are located in democratic cities anyway. NBA players aren't picking their teams based on the state's political leanings.
 

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Lebron didn't leave because Gilbert "likes" Trump. Gilbert didn't even vote for Trump. LeBron left because his family wanted to live in LA, and he obliged. It's as simple as that. It didn't have anything to do with Ohio being a "red state". The vast majority of NBA teams are located in democratic cities anyway. NBA players aren't picking their teams based on the state's political leanings.
It's a perception thing. I lived in Austin during the Bush years, but no one was like, "Well yeah Austin is blue" they were like, "Texas ugh."

What you are saying also is really just reinforcing the point. The young people that are talented and don't leave the state congregate in the cities there and vote democrat. We are losing the young educated people and all the regressive tax policies and bad labor practices exacerbate that. See my post on Kansas above. All the evidence flies in the face of economic policy for the past 40 years, and yet we are still doing the same thing expecting a different outcome.
 

-Akronite-

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Lebron didn't leave because Gilbert "likes" Trump. Gilbert didn't even vote for Trump. LeBron left because his family wanted to live in LA, and he obliged. It's as simple as that. It didn't have anything to do with Ohio being a "red state". The vast majority of NBA teams are located in democratic cities anyway. NBA players aren't picking their teams based on the state's political leanings.
Is the bolded true?

And yeah, I don't think the dealbreaker was Trump. Gilbert has way more direct negatives for LeBron to have been worried about.
 

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Insiders have hinted before that Lebron was no fan of Gilbert and one of those reasons is he is good buddies with Trump.

This basically got laughed off and some people disagreed with me in S34 that this is true, but being in red states really hampers your ability to keep stars. Let's looka t the evidence.

Utah most recently had the Wetsbrook fan situation where a fan was said to have said very nasty racist things to Westbrook. This is well-known that Utah is one of the worst places to play for Black players. Here is first person account of it. People make fun of Utah having a "white team" and while it is not like they don't have black players, I think the fans are very comfortable having it that way.


People whine and whine about small markets not getting enough love from stars, but I think it is part of a larger problem. As Ohioans know, brain drain is real problem in the midwest where lots of people go to school, but the smartest and best students leave for greener pastures.

Well, they have tried tax cuts for years to lure employment to the south and midwest. The most extreme of these are Kentucky, Kansas and Louisiana and they have continued to cut taxes while their infrastructure has crumbled and air and water quality have suffered. Now their students in primary and secondary are the worst in the nation while all the talented people from these places leave the first chance they get. My point is that Lebron leaving Cleveland isn't any different than when I moved away as soon as I was done at Case Western Reserve.

If you want a vibrant multicultural community you invest in public spaces, the arts, and things that attract people to your city. Both Cleveland and Pittsburgh have made major inroads in these areas. Investing in tax cuts seems like it will attract employers, but more and more employers are leaving cheap tax havens because they can't find the talent. You want to encourage local talent and not lure huge companies to your state.


I mean we have tried the tax cuts thing for 3-4 decades now and Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky are largely in the same place. Losing their best brightest to the bigger markets, including Lebron.
Ohio tax cuts are doing just fine. As a case graduate myself, I left Ohio because there were jobs in Carolina, but I came back and created my own job ten years ago..

I am not saying the tax incentives are perfect, but a lot of what Ohio is doing to develop jobs is working. I am seeing tech companies move here because there is talent and a low cost of living. Columbus is considered a hot new spot in tech.. in 2017 the state sponsored investment group funded 400+ startups in Franklin county or an adjacent county, and last year saw the first start up exit over a billion dollars here in columbus ..

There are always a lot of variables, but this idea that Ohio is somehow handicapped by low taxes is pretty ludicrous.. LeBron as any kind of example is also pretty out there. He wants to be an actor, and to do that you live in NYC or LA..
 

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Ohio tax cuts are doing just fine. As a case graduate myself, I left Ohio because there were jobs in Carolina, but I came back and created my own job ten years ago..

I am not saying the tax incentives are perfect, but a lot of what Ohio is doing to develop jobs is working. I am seeing tech companies move here because there is talent and a low cost of living. Columbus is considered a hot new spot in tech.. in 2017 the state sponsored investment group funded 400+ startups in Franklin county or an adjacent county, and last year saw the first start up exit over a billion dollars here in columbus ..

There are always a lot of variables, but this idea that Ohio is somehow handicapped by low taxes is pretty ludicrous.. LeBron as any kind of example is also pretty out there. He wants to be an actor, and to do that you live in NYC or LA..
Did you read any of the articles I posted? Tax cuts have diminishing returns.

You didn't address brain drain which is a problem in Ohio. I'm not saying that taxes should be sky high either, but there are diminishing returns on it. There was a big push to attract big companies to the south this way with low pay and low taxes and now companies are leaving because they can't find anyone there to work.

I also wasn't suggesting that Lebron left due to low taxes, but more the red culture that dominates the state. If Ohio could keep more of it's talented residents, the culture would be very different and much more appealing to young people.

Most young people aren't interested in a place that restricts access to abortion, is willing to put kids in cages and separate infants from their parents, doesn't want gay people to get married, and incarcerates minorities for marijuana offenses. We had pages and pages of people defending the guy who shot Tamir Rice in seconds without asking him to drop his "weapon". No matter how blatant the police incompetence it was just them doing their jobs. That attitude affects a community.

"flyover country" continues to insist how with it and not backwards they are, and yet they elected the dumbest most criminal President of all time. Everyone is willing to just say "no it isn't that way" and yet people continue to flee these areas for ones where we can make a better living and escape a lot of paranoid hateful rhetoric.
 

King Stannis

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Did you read any of the articles I posted? Tax cuts have diminishing returns.

You didn't address brain drain which is a problem in Ohio. I'm not saying that taxes should be sky high either, but there are diminishing returns on it. There was a big push to attract big companies to the south this way with low pay and low taxes and now companies are leaving because they can't find anyone there to work.

I also wasn't suggesting that Lebron left due to low taxes, but more the red culture that dominates the state. If Ohio could keep more of it's talented residents, the culture would be very different and much more appealing to young people.

Most young people aren't interested in a place that restricts access to abortion, is willing to put kids in cages and separate infants from their parents, doesn't want gay people to get married, and incarcerates minorities for marijuana offenses. We had pages and pages of people defending the guy who shot Tamir Rice in seconds without asking him to drop his "weapon". No matter how blatant the police incompetence it was just them doing their jobs. That attitude affects a community.

"flyover country" continues to insist how with it and not backwards they are, and yet they elected the dumbest most criminal President of all time. Everyone is willing to just say "no it isn't that way" and yet people continue to flee these areas for ones where we can make a better living and escape a lot of paranoid hateful rhetoric.
I think you are vastly overstating your case.

I don't think it is wise to assume people are acting out of sheer malice for the hell of it.

And I am not sure what you cite would even be on LeBron's radar in any meaningful way; i.e., he talks about it but the conditions you laid out do not effect him, or other NBA stars.
 

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Did you read any of the articles I posted? Tax cuts have diminishing returns.

You didn't address brain drain which is a problem in Ohio. I'm not saying that taxes should be sky high either, but there are diminishing returns on it. There was a big push to attract big companies to the south this way with low pay and low taxes and now companies are leaving because they can't find anyone there to work.

I also wasn't suggesting that Lebron left due to low taxes, but more the red culture that dominates the state. If Ohio could keep more of it's talented residents, the culture would be very different and much more appealing to young people.

Most young people aren't interested in a place that restricts access to abortion, is willing to put kids in cages and separate infants from their parents, doesn't want gay people to get married, and incarcerates minorities for marijuana offenses. We had pages and pages of people defending the guy who shot Tamir Rice in seconds without asking him to drop his "weapon". No matter how blatant the police incompetence it was just them doing their jobs. That attitude affects a community.

"flyover country" continues to insist how with it and not backwards they are, and yet they elected the dumbest most criminal President of all time. Everyone is willing to just say "no it isn't that way" and yet people continue to flee these areas for ones where we can make a better living and escape a lot of paranoid hateful rhetoric.
I live and work in Ohio. I see first hand companies that make decisions to site operations here. Support for Trump or any other politician has nothing to do with it. Locally in the Newark Ohio area, eight companies have moved operations here in give years.. Employment has not been this good in 22 years. We have new business startups, seeded by local money, even in friggin licking county..

Expansion and growth in Columbus is ludicrous. If you have not been on High Street from downtown to Campus in the last five years, you would not recognize it. German Village, Old Town East, Franklinton, Grandvew, New Albany, Pataskala .. all of these are booming.

I don't see any brain drain.

I do see permanent damage from the Opiod epidemic in the lower end of the work force, especially along the Ohio River. This is the leftover from the wall street abandonment of US manufacturing and steel in the eighties..

So keep your taxes in your new home.We are doing just fine back here..
 

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The reason there is a "brain drain" in Ohio is that there are comparatively less jobs that make the best use out of a college degree than in a big city. This is the problem facing almost the entirety of the midwest. It is already a region that struggles to attract new people, but when people born in Ohio go and get college degrees, their hometowns cannot actually afford to keep them compared to bigger cities.

There is a way to offset this... Here is a quote from a study from University of Minnesota Law School.


The Cleveland region features two central cities, Cleveland and Akron. The region’s neighborhoods are experiencing powerful economic decline and virtually no gentrification or growth. The only significant pocket of gentrification appears to have occurred in the Tremont area, and the number of people displaced is, on net, in the hundreds.

By comparison, nearly half of regional population lives in a strongly declining area. Those same neighborhoods include about 65 percent of low-income population. Despite losing nearly 10 percent of their population since 2000 – 166,000 people – they have seen a 30 percent increase in low-income population and a 49 percent increase in residents in poverty. They have also seen massive white flight, losing 212,000 white residents, or 20 percent of their entire white population, since 2000.

In Cleveland’s suburbs, declining areas are undergoing poverty concentration. But neighborhood decline is much more severe in the cities of Akron and Cleveland, where about 75 percent of population lives in a strongly declining area. In Cleveland proper, poverty concentration is less frequent than outright abandonment, and much of the city’s eastern half is growing poorer while losing low-income and middle-income population alike.
Moreover, if you read the data, it is actually pretty startling. Areas in Northeast Ohio that are undergoing economic decline have actually seen more than double low-income and impoverished citizens.

In economically expanding neighborhoods, we've seen a 184% increase in college educated residents since 2000.

Cleveland needs to develop its ability to be a technology hub. Currently like most of the midwest, it is very difficult to get college educated individuals to Cleveland, and those that come move directly into economically strong neighborhoods.

The problem is that Cleveland is growing, but it is just growing slower than similar cities. That has less do with politics and more with a lack of technology, high-level public sector, and international jobs.

@Cavatt, I actually agree that investment in arts would improve the city... the problem is that only helps create jobs when you already have jobs that attract recent college graduates. Currently, Cleveland is not competing in the same league as coastal cities.

Finally, all of this begs the question, is it actually worth it for Cleveland to invest in attracting college graduates? While the economy certainly is not strong compared to many cities, it also is not struggling. The unemployment rate is 5.1%, payroll in construction and manufacturing is up, per capita GDP rose by over 3% in 2017, last year median home values increased by 6.5%, and jobs are being filled as they are created.

At some point, people living in Northeast Ohio need to ask themselves if it is worth trying to beat the coastal cities at their own game, or if it should continue to play a different game.

All of this is to say, I really have zero idea what Northeast Ohio should do. I do not know if it should try to compete with the coastal cities. I certainly do not believe there is an easy solution. It is just a confusing issue, and if it were not, then it would already be solved.

EDIT: I also wanted to add that Columbus is arguably the fastest growing midwest city... faster than Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, Des Moines, etc. It is affordable and the government is working to build more jobs and housing than current residents, which means it is an attractive place for people to move too. They are slowly adding a vibrant tech sector that is attracting recent college graduates. Finally, because it is a state capital, it benefits from connections to the bureaucratically-expanding District of Colombia.
 
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CleveRocks

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I
The reason there is a "brain drain" in Ohio is that there are comparatively less jobs that make the best use out of a college degree than in a big city. This is the problem facing almost the entirety of the midwest. It is already a region that struggles to attract new people, but when people born in Ohio go and get college degrees, their hometowns cannot actually afford to keep them compared to bigger cities.

There is a way to offset this... Here is a quote from a study from University of Minnesota Law School.




Moreover, if you read the data, it is actually pretty startling. Areas in Northeast Ohio that are undergoing economic decline have actually seen more than double low-income and impoverished citizens.

In economically expanding neighborhoods, we've seen a 184% increase in college educated residents since 2000.

Cleveland needs to develop its ability to be a technology hub. Currently like most of the midwest, it is very difficult to get college educated individuals to Cleveland, and those that come move directly into economically strong neighborhoods.

The problem is that Cleveland is growing, but it is just growing slower than similar cities. That has less do with politics and more with a lack of technology, high-level public sector, and international jobs.

@Cavatt, I actually agree that investment in arts would improve the city... the problem is that only helps create jobs when you already have jobs that attract recent college graduates. Currently, Cleveland is not competing in the same league as coastal cities.

Finally, all of this begs the question, is it actually worth it for Cleveland to invest in attracting college graduates? While the economy certainly is not strong compared to many cities, it also is not struggling. The unemployment rate is 5.1%, payroll in construction and manufacturing is up, per capita GDP rose by over 3% in 2017, last year median home values increased by 6.5%, and jobs are being filled as they are created.

At some point, people living in Northeast Ohio need to ask themselves if it is worth trying to beat the coastal cities at their own game, or if it should continue to play a different game.

All of this is to say, I really have zero idea what Northeast Ohio should do. I do not know if it should try to compete with the coastal cities. I certainly do not believe there is an easy solution. It is just a confusing issue, and if it were not, then it would already be solved.
Think to some degree you are driving looking in the rear view mirror.. you can look at this site for details..https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.oh.htm


Cleveland area itself is down to 3.9 percent despite growth in available labor, and Ohio generally is at 4.1 percent.. in Columbus it's currently 3%..

For reference when I left Cleveland in 1982, unemployment was 17 percent..

Cleveland is actually very well situated in terms of culture compared with say Pittsburgh or Detroit. We have a world class orchestra, a thriving theater district, not to mention arts at the 17 local colleges, three major sport teams and the lake.
 

Mr. Orange

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The reason there is a "brain drain" in Ohio is that there are comparatively less jobs that make the best use out of a college degree than in a big city. This is the problem facing almost the entirety of the midwest. It is already a region that struggles to attract new people, but when people born in Ohio go and get college degrees, their hometowns cannot actually afford to keep them compared to bigger cities.

There is a way to offset this... Here is a quote from a study from University of Minnesota Law School.




Moreover, if you read the data, it is actually pretty startling. Areas in Northeast Ohio that are undergoing economic decline have actually seen more than double low-income and impoverished citizens.

In economically expanding neighborhoods, we've seen a 184% increase in college educated residents since 2000.

Cleveland needs to develop its ability to be a technology hub. Currently like most of the midwest, it is very difficult to get college educated individuals to Cleveland, and those that come move directly into economically strong neighborhoods.

The problem is that Cleveland is growing, but it is just growing slower than similar cities. That has less do with politics and more with a lack of technology, high-level public sector, and international jobs.

@Cavatt, I actually agree that investment in arts would improve the city... the problem is that only helps create jobs when you already have jobs that attract recent college graduates. Currently, Cleveland is not competing in the same league as coastal cities.

Finally, all of this begs the question, is it actually worth it for Cleveland to invest in attracting college graduates? While the economy certainly is not strong compared to many cities, it also is not struggling. The unemployment rate is 5.1%, payroll in construction and manufacturing is up, per capita GDP rose by over 3% in 2017, last year median home values increased by 6.5%, and jobs are being filled as they are created.

At some point, people living in Northeast Ohio need to ask themselves if it is worth trying to beat the coastal cities at their own game, or if it should continue to play a different game.

All of this is to say, I really have zero idea what Northeast Ohio should do. I do not know if it should try to compete with the coastal cities. I certainly do not believe there is an easy solution. It is just a confusing issue, and if it were not, then it would already be solved.

EDIT: I also wanted to add that Columbus is arguably the fastest growing midwest city... faster than Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, Des Moines, etc. It is affordable and the government is working to build more jobs and housing than current residents, which means it is an attractive place for people to move too. They are slowly adding a vibrant tech sector that is attracting recent college graduates. Finally, because it is a state capital, it benefits from connections to the bureaucratically-expanding District of Colombia.
As someone who lived in Columbus, let me tell you it is also as boring as Des Moines. Not much worse than spending a summer in Columbus. And the fall is a cult of OSU football and drunks. No water or parks system to speak of. Minor league teams. No real art scene. Now, having said that, it is more fun as a young person because there are a lot of young people always moving there for OSU and that gives it a positive energy. I do like the area between campus and downtown which has gentrified. German Village nice too. There are some nice city neighborhoods and I found the people to be more generally positive and optimistic. But really it is a boring city and a small one at that.
 

Lee

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Been stated before in this thread, but economics had zero to do with Lebrons decision. His net worth is so high, the cost of living in LA really doesn't affect him much.

He left Miami because Savanah hated Miami and his mom was going crazy. Kids were to young to have an opinion. So they came back to NE Ohio.

They left Ohio because Bronny loves his LA friends where he played AAU ball in the summer because they lived in LA in the summers. Savanah loves LA and Bron has the business interest out there.

Its why I am not really mad at him for leaving, he did it for his family and to make them happy 1st, and business interest 2nd. None of it was a basketball decision.

And for the record, Bron will always hate Gilbert, Trump supporter or not.
 
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-Akronite-

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As someone who lived in Columbus, let me tell you it is also as boring as Des Moines. Not much worse than spending a summer in Columbus. And the fall is a cult of OSU football and drunks. No water or parks system to speak of. Minor league teams. No real art scene. Now, having said that, it is more fun as a young person because there are a lot of young people always moving there for OSU and that gives it a positive energy. I do like the area between campus and downtown which has gentrified. German Village nice too. There are some nice city neighborhoods and I found the people to be more generally positive and optimistic. But really it is a boring city and a small one at that.
Maybe it is your age but I think you have Columbus all wrong. I mean, I haven't been to Des Moines to judge, but Columbus is a really nice town to live in with arts, comedy, music all accessible. Then again, my experience comes from being a student and recent grad and the areas around campus mostly.

And while MLS may underwhelm you, they are a major league city with the Blue Jackets (not nearly the same culture pro sports-wise of Cleveland and Cincy tho).
 
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