The Browns are bringing in USC QB Mark Sanchez

[AZ_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqqDuYX9gVM

This is one of Sintim's highlight tape, his hand is on the ground in probably 40-50 percent of those plays.

What that play 4-3 but can play 3-4 OLB? I'll list some for you:

Julian Peterson
Mathias Kiwanuka (played OLB for the Giants)
Chris Gocong
Darryl Blackstock
Rashad Jeanty

None of their teams run the 3-4, so I'm not sure what this even means. The Lions/Seahawks, Giants, Eagles, and Bengals all run the 4-3.

Nope, you're wrong...

Shawn Merriman played OLB in Maryland's 3-4 defense...

Tully Banta-Cain played OLB his freshmen year at California and came to Cal as a LB before switching to DE...

James Harrison played OLB at Kent State and in 2000 he was All-Mac at OLB...

Shawn Crable played OLB at Michigan...

Merriman played in a 3-4, and played more with his hand on the ground than standing up.

Banta Cain outgrew LB and played DE for 3 years.

Harrison is a good point, but he was also a developmental prospect and a guy who took 5+ years to develop along with adding a TON of size and bulk to his frame. He also led the MAC with 15 sacks so he did have a great deal of experience rushing the passer.

Crable, much like Sintim, played in a 3-4 OLB spot, which certainly helps ease the transition.




The fact remains, you don't make the transition to 3-4 OLB without having SOME hand on the ground pass rushing experience. It's almost a pre-requisite for the position.

 

[Smooth]

This is one of Sintim's highlight tape, his hand is on the ground in probably 40-50 percent of those plays.

You're seriously going to base that on watching 1:50 of a highlight tape?

None of their teams run the 3-4, so I'm not sure what this even means. The Lions/Seahawks, Giants, Eagles, and Bengals all run the 4-3.

You said 4-3 OLB can't play OLB in the 3-4...I just gave you some guys that play 4-3 OLB, that can play OLB in the 3-4...

Merriman played in a 3-4, and played more with his hand on the ground than standing up.

WTF?!?! 3-4 OLB don't play with their hand in the ground; they play in a 2-point stance for a majority of the game... I don't know why you keep thinking that when that's not the case...

Harrison is a good point, but he was also a developmental prospect and a guy who took 5+ years to develop along with adding a TON of size and bulk to his frame. He also led the MAC with 15 sacks so he did have a great deal of experience rushing the passer.

I'm not disagreeing, you just said college OLB's in the 3-4 NEVER were successful in playing the 4-3 in college...

Crable, much like Sintim, played in a 3-4 OLB spot, which certainly helps ease the transition.

Michigan didn't run the 3-4 defense, they ran the 4-3...

The fact remains, you don't make the transition to 3-4 OLB without having SOME hand on the ground pass rushing experience. It's almost a pre-requisite for the position.

I agree to some extent..

My problem is that you keep saying never and impossible when that's not neccessarily the case..

 

[AZ_]

You're seriously going to base that on watching 1:50 of a highlight tape?

No, but the fact of the matter is he plays with his hand on the ground for a significant amount of snaps because of his pass rushing ability.

"Sintim is at his best when playing in downhill mode, particularly as a pass rusher when Sintim is able to play on the edge, often coming out of a four-point stance to go wide."

http://www.thephinsider.com/2009/3/12/790020/scouting-the-draft-clint-s

You said 4-3 OLB can't play OLB in the 3-4...I just gave you some guys that play 4-3 OLB, that can play OLB in the 3-4...

The only guy on that list who makes sense at OLB is Kiwanuka, who is now exclusively playing DE and only moved out to OLB in the first place because of the Giants ridiculous depth at DE.

Chris Gocong and Rashad Jeanty played DE in college and Blackstock played in the 3-4 at Virginia.

None of the players on your list played OLB in a 4-3 in college with the exception of Harrison and I would imagine he played with his hand on the ground some too as he compiled 15 sacks.

WTF?!?! 3-4 OLB don't play with their hand in the ground; they play in a 2-point stance for a majority of the game... I don't know why you keep thinking that when that's not the case...

Obviously not seeing as how Merrimen and Sintim both play with their hand on the ground some.

"Shawne Merriman played primarily last season as a stand-up outside linebacker. Yet because of his size (6-4, 272), he is projected as a defensive end in many circles. At times during his college career, he played from a three-point stance."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/2005-04-13-profile-defensive-linemen_x.htm

I'm not disagreeing, you just said college OLB's in the 3-4 NEVER were successful in playing the 3-4 in college...

That's not what I said. I said players who played in the 4-3 at OLB rarely IF EVER come into the NFL and play OLB in a 3-4 because they lack pass rushing experience. Cushing in particular, will not be a 3-4 OLB because he lacks experience with his hand on the ground rushing the passer.

Michigan didn't run the 3-4 defense, they ran the 4-3...

They run the 4-3 now, and played it in Crabel's senior season I believe. They switched to the 3-4 during the 2004 season when Gabe Watson was anchoring the middle of the defense, and Crable definitely got his share of experience in that defense running it for the 2-3 years after.

 

[Sly]

The real question about Cushing is where to project him because he seems to be a very strong, quick, versatile player.
Phil Savage said at the Senior Bowl that Cushing was being looked at as a 3-4 ILB (Not that he is even employed). The real question at that spot is if he can shed run blocks. If he can, he fits the position. If not, he's totally worthless on the inside.
At OLB, I think you have to look at which side he fits in best. Is he a ROLB or a LOLB? Now he's very strong and fast, but does he really have the pass rush skills to play on the right side? I would be so bold as to say that he does not. The left side seems to be a more natural fit because he wouldn't be relied on as the top pass rusher and given his athleticism, I think he could hang with the TE. The concern with him on the left side is whether or not he can handle the run support aspect and whether or not his rushing skills are even good enough to be a #2.

It's tough to be sold on any player from USC because it's difficult to figure out who's holding who up and that their numbers are almost irrelevant. The key to Cushing is that if the Browns are sold on him as an ILB and as a LOLB then he would become a very likely candidate. Mangini said he wants "versatile players". I like him much better as an ILB though because I do think he can shed blocks and be a limited blitzer.

Clay Matthews is every bit as athletic. I would question him on the right side as well because I think you would end up having yet another Wimbley, limited pass rush skills. I think he may be much better than Cushing as a LOLB though. He's fast, strong, decent in coverage. Matthews is much more adept versus the run and a better rusher albeit having limited moves. Obviously he's still a work in progress. I can't explain why he was not a starter. What I do know is that when Matthews was in the game, USC had a much better defense.

Sure Cushing can play OLB in a 3-4, I wouldn't use a first round selection if you intend to use him as an OLB though. Now this is just my opinion about how a LOLB should be in this type of 3-4. Mangini and Ryan may sit down and decide they prefer a bigger guy like McGinest. It's really a matter of opinion about what you want out of the position to come up with a grade but I personally would grade Matthews very high as a LOLB in a 3-4. Though it would depend on how long I thought he would need to develop before I used a top pick on him. Cushing at ILB, I also think would be a good choice in the first (not at 5).

I've seen almost every mock draft in the world saying that Orakpo will be the pick at 5. The concern I have with that is again, which side do you project him on? Unlike Cushing or Matthews, he absolutely has the ability to play on the right side. But how is he in coverage? I would say he's capable of dropping back into coverage, but can he cover an NFL TE? I'm not convinced that he can. So I'm not sure you would want him playing on the left side. Which means you would be drafting him as a ROLB. Which means you would still need a LOLB and that you have decided that you cannot go on with Wimbley as starter. Which is very possible. Of course this is all contingent on what you expect out of each position. It just wouldn't make as much sense to me. Though Mangini did say he will draft the best player on the board. So, it is possible.

 

[Smooth]

No, but the fact of the matter is he plays with his hand on the ground for a significant amount of snaps because of his pass rushing ability.

"Sintim is at his best when playing in downhill mode, particularly as a pass rusher when Sintim is able to play on the edge, often coming out of a four-point stance to go wide."

http://www.thephinsider.com/2009/3/12/790020/scouting-the-draft-clint-s

Alright, I have no problem with you saying he's at his best doing that, as opposed to saying he does it a lot, especially as a 34 OLB...

The only guy on that list who makes sense at OLB is Kiwanuka, who is now exclusively playing DE and only moved out to OLB in the first place because of the Giants ridiculous depth at DE.

Chris Gocong and Rashad Jeanty played DE in college and Blackstock played in the 3-4 at Virginia.

None of the players on your list played OLB in a 4-3 in college with the exception of Harrison and I would imagine he played with his hand on the ground some too as he compiled 15 sacks.

I understand but you said guys in the NFL that played in the 4-3 that could play in the 3-4..,

Obviously not seeing as how Merrimen and Sintim both play with their hand on the ground some.

"Shawne Merriman played primarily last season as a stand-up outside linebacker. Yet because of his size (6-4, 272), he is projected as a defensive end in many circles. At times during his college career, he played from a three-point stance."

Certainly at times, but not the majority of time..

3-4 OLB certainly have their hand in the ground some of the time but definitely not the majority...

That's not what I said. I said players who played in the 4-3 at OLB rarely IF EVER come into the NFL and play OLB in a 3-4 because they lack pass rushing experience. Cushing in particular, will not be a 3-4 OLB because he lacks experience with his hand on the ground rushing the passer.

I agree with your assessment then but Cushing will be a 3-4 OLB in this league if he goes to a 3-4 team... Will he be successful? I don't think so and I doubt so...but just because he doesn't have experienced rushing the passer with his hand on the ground doesn't mean he won't...

Too many semantics here... I think we pretty much agree but we're beating around the bush... :chuckles:

 

[Smooth]

I've seen almost every mock draft in the world saying that Orakpo will be the pick at 5. The concern I have with that is again, which side do you project him on? Unlike Cushing or Matthews, he absolutely has the ability to play on the right side. But can how is he in coverage? I would say he's capable of dropping back into coverage, but can he cover an NFL TE? I'm not convinced that he can. So I'm not sure you would want him playing on the left side. Which means you would be drafting him as a ROLB. Which means you would still need a LOLB and that you have decided that you cannot go on with Wimbley as starter. Which is very possible. Of course this is all contingent on what you expect out of each position. It just wouldn't make as much sense to me. Though Mangini did say he will draft the best player on the board. So, it is possible.

You make a lot of good points kiji...

Just something I'd like to add:

Right now we have our ROLB in Wimbley who will be going up against the LT's... Wimbley is not a LOLB.. LOLB are guys who have to be real good against the run and be able to cover TE's effectively... While Wimbley can do both of those things, it's certainly not to his strengths... He's best at going up against LT's, 1-on-1, and not having to worry about much else; and that's what he's going to be this year..

That's why it's so imperative that the Browns not only find a guy who can rush the passer, but also stop the run effectively and be able to cover, because the LOLB position is much different from the ROLB position...

 

[PIP]

Embrace the Orakpo, Smooth...

 

[Smooth]

Embrace the Orakpo, Smooth...

I'll be the first one to say it: B-U-S-T...

I've tried warming up to him but I just can't do it...

Like I mentioned above, we need a guy who can not only be a factor against in pass rushing but in run-blocking and in coverage..

I haven't seen Orakpo enough in coverage but I have seen enough of Orakpo versus the run to know he's pretty bad against the run...

I'm also not a fan of taking a guy that high and converting him to OLB, when this team really can't afford to miss on draft picks--especially high ones..

I'd much rather take a guy like Crabtree and then get my pass rusher (Larry English) in the 2nd...

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

I'll be the first one to say it: B-U-S-T...

I've tried warming up to him but I just can't do it...

Like I mentioned above, we need a guy who can not only be a factor against in pass rushing but in run-blocking and in coverage..

I haven't seen Orakpo enough in coverage but I have seen enough of Orakpo versus the run to know he's pretty bad against the run...

I'm also not a fan of taking a guy that high and converting him to OLB, when this team really can't afford to miss on draft picks--especially high ones..

I'd much rather take a guy like Crabtree and then get my pass rusher (Larry English) in the 2nd...

I agree, Orakpo's stock has been shooting up and I hope that it shoots up enough to make some team pass on Curry for him. I know it is unlikely and KC will most likely take Curry, but I would be thrilled if they got swept up in Orakpo mania and passed on Curry leaving him for us.

 

[MoFo]

Wow - according to the OBR, the Browns are bringing in USC QB Mark Sanchez, as well as WR Patrick Turner, LB Clay Matthews, and DE Kyle Moore, in for official visits.

Sanchez is going to be a beast.

 

[AZ_]

I'd much rather take a guy like Crabtree and then get my pass rusher (Larry English) in the 2nd...

Aren't we kind of doing the same thing with Crabtree?

Taking him out of a completely different scheme and hoping he makes the transition to an NFL offense? Sure, it's not exactly the same, but going from Texas Tech's offense to the NFL is a pretty big move IMO.

I hate using the excuse we're taking him and teaching him a new position. The principles are the same, and as you said he has experience standing up and rushing from the outside. Not to mention, it's the status quo for every team to take these guys and make them OLBs.

It's what you have to do to build a pass rush, I don't think they have any reservations about them "switching positions."

 

[The Common Man]

[deleted]

 

[JayDub]

This is ridiculous. A lot of players in college that play outside linebacker and de regardless of style of defense will have packages where they will play standing up and or with their hand on the ground.

The fact of the matter is this...its all about how a given team thinks that player will adapt whether its a from de to olb or vice versa. Clay Matthews is too small to play with his hand down in 3-4 and the same with cushing. it'd be a waste of draft pick. The only way either of these guys turn into and hand down player is in a 4-3 scheme where they would be a pure pass rusher and neither of these guys are pure pass rushers and niether of them are great pass rushers. more often than not you see de in college turning into olbs in 3-4. Like terrell suggs wimbely and orakpo.

The reason de's turn into good olbs in 3-4 is b/c they have a natural nack of rushing the passer and are athletic enough to drop in coverage.

Going into it a little deeper. The only reason these players will play with a hand down is to give a different look to the offense. It's all a ploy to throw off the protection being employed it has nothing to do with their pass rushing skills. Every passing snap the qb/oline will figure who the line is going to pick up and who the rb will have and who will be "hot".

Soooooooo in one look the player may be a down lineman and picked up automatically by the line and they have to know who to pass off and whatnot. If he's standing up it may the rbs read to pick up. Usually when a given player whoever he is, is known for going up or down the tackle and the rb wil have a call to let each other know who is responsible for that defender on any given pass pro.

"Sintim is at his best when playing in downhill mode, particularly as a pass rusher when Sintim is able to play on the edge, often coming out of a four-point stance to go wide."

It's a lot harder for a big tackle to get a hold of a guy who has running start than it is when he's down. He's just saying that Sintim is particularly good at coming off the edge from the down position, which is rare in olbs. The fact that he plays with his hand down doesn't mean he's a better pass rusher it just means you don't have to sub him out to play a 4-3 look.

I think that a true DE will be a better pass rusher (for the most part) than an olb who plays with his hand down and standing up. The fact that de's are usually stellar athletes is this is why teams convert them to olb's. Its much easier to do this than turn an olb into a hand down guy. thats why athletic de's are so coveted in the nfl.

 

[Smooth]

Found this interesting:

Pete Carroll was on "Moving the Chains" on sirius NFL yesterday talking about Sanchez. Apparently he had a great pro day, and Carroll said don't be surprised if he goes to a team very high in the draft that you don't expect to take a QB. I wonder who that could be? Mangini has been on campus all week.

 

[Sly]

I think we should use that #5 pick to hold Sanchez or Stafford hostage.