The Mueller Investigation (Russiagate)

Hurl Bruce

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I understand your commitment to this idea. You guys have a lot invested in Trump being a criminal. B

it's not happening. Even the Dems we're convinced Mueller would determine the president committed a crime. The least optimistic were we're convinced that Trump Junior and or Kushner would be convicted of a crime. Neither of those guys, nor Steve Bannon were indicted much less convicted, and nothing prevented Mueller from charging them.. Whatever inuendo he wants to pitch about the president himself, he had nothing on these guys so why stop?

At the end of the day, if you believe he committed a crime, impeach him already.. But that's not happening either, because the Dems know it's a fruitless excercise..

As for Trump re-election, the only path I see is if Come, Strzch and page are convicted of some crime related to the FISA warrant. I think that is less likely than impeachment being successful..
Mueller (and his report) pretty clearly states that Trump obstructed justice but Mueller was unable to prosecute/do anything about it according to the Constitution. That's congress' job.

The only reason that impeachment is a probably fruitless effort and thus hasn't started yet is because the GOP senators are spineless and won't do their civic duty.
 

-Akronite-

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I understand your commitment to this idea.
To the idea of the law as it applies to everyone else? Sure, I'm committed to that. Honest question, what's the legal argument for clearing someone on obstruction when they made several efforts to stop a legal and appropriate investigation into real and proven crimes?

You guys have a lot invested in Trump being a criminal.
Not as much as the Republicans.

it's not happening. Even the Dems we're convinced Mueller would determine the president committed a crime. The least optimistic were we're convinced that Trump Junior and or Kushner would be convicted of a crime. Neither of those guys, nor Steve Bannon were indicted much less convicted, and nothing prevented Mueller from charging them.. Whatever inuendo he wants to pitch about the president himself, he had nothing on these guys so why stop?
Because, much like it was determined that Trump was not part of a criminal conspiracy with the Russian government, Mueller didn't find that to be the case with them.

Yes, lots of Dems were gung-ho for Mueller and envisioned the house of cards collapsing gloriously. I was more on the cautiously optimistic side myself and will admit I was surprised that Trump and his team seemed to stop at (or the Russians thought it was smart to stop at) soliciting the help of the Russians and celebrating their illegal work as they went. But plenty of Dems/leftists are far more pessimistic than you give them credit for. :chuckle:

At the end of the day, if you believe he committed a crime, impeach him already.. But that's not happening either, because the Dems know it's a fruitless excercise..
Do you honestly think the Dems are holding back on impeachment because they don't have enough dirt on Trump? Have you taken a look at the senate lately? :chuckle:

Impeachment is a political process, it's not specifically about criminality and in fact does not require criminality.

As for Trump re-election, the only path I see is if Come, Strzch and page are convicted of some crime related to the FISA warrant. I think that is less likely than impeachment being successful..
I see PLENTY of paths for Trump. Low voter turnout on the left is all it takes, and there are plenty of ways to suppress the Dem vote. Even the people who poll well against him now, like Biden, could have a lot of shit thrown at them between now and the election. I hope to God you're right though.
 

Cavatt

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I'm not sure I learned anything from Mueller's comments yesterday. He stated some key findings in the report and did not editorialize a thing. He stressed Russian interference did in fact happen. It was comprehensive, concerning and should be given significant attention by those who have been elected to uphold the constitution. The Trump stuff is getting the most attention but the Russian aspect is what should concern us all. The Trump stuff is what it is, it's a side show and as long as the GOP buries their head in the sand and the Dems are too scared to make a bold political move to maintain their oversight power, we will be stuck in this soap opera.

I said it months ago, I'll say it again. If the Dems are not going to go with impeachment, they need to go HARD at protecting the security of our elections over the next 18 months. They need to go HARD with passing legislation that benefits the majority of Americans. They need to be screaming from the roof tops what they are doing on those fronts so all of America is aware. Instead they are whining about what a criminal Trump is and look weak in the process because they won't do anything about it. They are putting themselves in the middle, not choosing a side. You can continue investigations in the background but the focus should be on securing elections and legislative victories. Let the GOP Senate and President look bad to the majority of Americans rejecting or vetoing those measures.
Totally agree with this and McConnell is blocking legislation to protect the elections.

Why?
 

Phills14

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Totally agree with this and McConnell is blocking legislation to protect the elections.

Why?
If McConnell does that, then scream from the roof tops about it. Show the American public the legislation that has passed the House to protect our elections and make everyone see that McConnell and the GOP are rejecting it for political reasons. That's a winning political argument in 2020.
 

Cavatt

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If McConnell does that, then scream from the roof tops about it. Show the American public the legislation that has passed the House to protect our elections and make everyone see that McConnell and the GOP are rejecting it for political reasons. That's a winning political argument in 2020.
Already did it

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/05/the-senate-will-not-vote-on-any-election-security-bills-gop-senator-says/

If Mother Jones is too partisan, even though that is a straight piece of reporting...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/08/01/republicans-block-money-election-security/884438002/

Voter ID and suppression laws are a #1 priority for Republicans, but protecting elections from hacking by foreign powers aren't even a consideration.

This kind of thing makes me think they are openly welcoming interference by Russia and Saudi Arabia.

I think more R's than trump need investigated.
 

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If McConnell does that, then scream from the roof tops about it. Show the American public the legislation that has passed the House to protect our elections and make everyone see that McConnell and the GOP are rejecting it for political reasons. That's a winning political argument in 2020.
The problem with this is how crazed GOP supporters have become.

Not only are they willing to overlook this, they're dug in on guys like McConnell fighting for what they believe in. What Fox and Breitbart and RedState and Stormfront all perpetuate to them on a daily basis.

They can shout it from the rooftops, and its going to make GOP support deeper and deeper until the majority of Americans wake up and tell them that enough is enough.

I'm not sure I see that happening, there just isn't the same level of care about the well being of Democracy, or our Nation's well being.


Beaten down by years of the political fight.
 

Phills14

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You are never going to win over a Breitbart follower but you can win over the casual fox viewer or the people who don't follow the news in general. If you put forth an argument of how bill after bill has passed the house to protect our elections and bill after bill, McConnell and the GOP Senate has rejected it, that will speak to the swing voters. Those are the people you want to target. Forget the Breitbart folks.
 

Cavatt

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You never are going to win over a Breitbart follower but you can win over the casual fox view or the people who don't follow the news in general. If you put forth an argument of how bill after bill has passed the house to protect our elections and bill after bill, McConnell and the GOP Senate has rejected it, that will speak to the swing voters. Those are the people you want to target. Forget the Breitbart folks.
I actually don't understand why the Dems have 0 messaging like this. They have no major talking points, andthis should be one of them.

They are stuck in time when Politicians say, "We are going to fight for you!"

These days you have to have specifics. You can't talk about what is right or noble. You have to say what priorities are.
 

AZ_

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You are never going to win over a Breitbart follower but you can win over the casual fox viewer or the people who don't follow the news in general. If you put forth an argument of how bill after bill has passed the house to protect our elections and bill after bill, McConnell and the GOP Senate has rejected it, that will speak to the swing voters. Those are the people you want to target. Forget the Breitbart folks.
I don't think its possible to win these folks over, I think its imperative that their brand of extremism does not continue to affect future generations.

They're essentially preying on people with false and well over the top in their bias.

Just look how extremist the right has become.

New era of anti-Semitism, white nationalism, domestic terrorism. By no means is the left, and especially the far left, without error or fault in rising political violence, but I know of no media propaganda networks teaching Americans this type of casual relationship with the truth while pushing pretty extreme narratives.
 

billmac91

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/william-barr-interview-attorney-general-says-mueller-couldve-decided-whether-trump-obstructed-justice-exclusive/

Still can’t believe Mueller didn’t put forth an opinion one way or the other to avoid the circus he has now created.....like or hate Barr, he confirms his belief Mueller had the right to make an opinion on if a crime was committed even if he couldn’t bring actual charges. Which I think would’ve at least given a lot more clarity to the situation.....


Attorney General William Barr said he believes special counsel Robert Mueller could have reached a decision on whether President Trump committed obstruction of justice, regardless of long-standing Justice Department policy that prohibits the indictment of a sitting president.

In his first network interview since being sworn in, Barr said the special counsel, who gave a rare public statement Wednesday reiterating some of the key findings in his more than 400-page report, could have concluded the president broke the law without actually charging him — or cleared him of wrongdoing.

"I personally felt he could've reached a decision," he told CBS News chief legal correspondent Jan Crawford during an exclusive interview in Anchorage, Alaska, on Thursday.


"The opinion says you cannot indict a president while he is in office, but he could've reached a decision as to whether it was criminal activity," Barr added. "But he had his reasons for not doing it, which he explained and I am not going to, you know, argue about those reasons."
 

King Stannis

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/william-barr-interview-attorney-general-says-mueller-couldve-decided-whether-trump-obstructed-justice-exclusive/

Still can’t believe Mueller didn’t put forth an opinion one way or the other to avoid the circus he has now created.....like or hate Barr, he confirms his belief Mueller had the right to make an opinion on if a crime was committed even if he couldn’t bring actual charges. Which I think would’ve at least given a lot more clarity to the situation.....
How convenient of Barr to say this now.

Given his actions in the past, I don't really take much stock in what he has to say.

This is all just nuts.

And we make fun of the Brits for having an unwritten constitution. We have a written one that relies far too much on unwritten convention.

And now we have an AG that is a toadie, acting like the POTUS' personal lawyer, an investigation that can't do anything even when it found actionable crime, and a Congress that won't act. Things should never have gotten to this place.

I think we need a new Constitution. The thing is frayed and too open to interpretation to be of use in a society with too many lawyers.
 

King Stannis

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I understand your commitment to this idea. You guys have a lot invested in Trump being a criminal. B

it's not happening. Even the Dems we're convinced Mueller would determine the president committed a crime. The least optimistic were we're convinced that Trump Junior and or Kushner would be convicted of a crime. Neither of those guys, nor Steve Bannon were indicted much less convicted, and nothing prevented Mueller from charging them.. Whatever inuendo he wants to pitch about the president himself, he had nothing on these guys so why stop?

At the end of the day, if you believe he committed a crime, impeach him already.. But that's not happening either, because the Dems know it's a fruitless excercise..

As for Trump re-election, the only path I see is if Come, Strzch and page are convicted of some crime related to the FISA warrant. I think that is less likely than impeachment being successful..
Trump is a criminal.

You are mischaracterizing what Mueller said. Moreover, this is no longer a partisan exercise. Once Mueller found what he found, and everyone knew about it, this became a matter of upholding the law and preventing the POTUS from being above the law and abusing power.

This is a serious thing. Unheard of, save once, in the history of the United States and everyone but the Republican Party is taking this very seriously.

Mueller determined he did break the law. Moreover, Trump is an un-indicted co-conspirator to felony finance violations.

Your examples of Kushner and Bannon neither prove or nor disprove what Trump did. You just made an association fallacy, wherein you tried to include Trump with un-indicted parties, i.e., honor by association.

Trump probably won't be impeached but that doesn't change what he's done, nor is this saga over.

If he loses in 2020, he will be indicted on multiple charges the very day he leaves office.
 

King Stannis

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And, to anyone that studied Greek or Roman history:

What do you call a ruler that makes himself, or is made by his partisans, above the law, and abuses his power to persecute his enemies without accountability or restraint? A ruler that usurps the intent of government machinery to serve his needs and only his needs?
 

billmac91

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How convenient of Barr to say this now.

Given his actions in the past, I don't really take much stock in what he has to say.

This is all just nuts.

And we make fun of the Brits for having an unwritten constitution. We have a written one that relies far too much on unwritten convention.

And now we have an AG that is a toadie, acting like the POTUS' personal lawyer, an investigation that can't do anything even when it found actionable crime, and a Congress that won't act. Things should never have gotten to this place.

I think we need a new Constitution. The thing is frayed and too open to interpretation to be of use in a society with too many lawyers.
In fairness, Barr said the same thing at his Senate hearing, that he wished Mueller gave an opinion and it surprised him that he didn’t.

Even after saying that at the senate hearing (which was probably a month ago now?) Mueller still put forth the same statement yesterday....I guess my point being, he gave Crawford essentially the same answer he gave the Senate in regards to Mueller’s decision to pass on the obstruction charge.
 

Phills14

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And, to anyone that studied Greek or Roman history:

What do you call a ruler that makes himself, or is made by his partisans, above the law, and abuses his power to persecute his enemies without accountability or restraint? A ruler that usurps the intent of government machinery to serve his needs and only his needs?

 
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