The Mueller Investigation (Russiagate)

King Stannis

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I actually don't understand why the Dems have 0 messaging like this. They have no major talking points, andthis should be one of them.

They are stuck in time when Politicians say, "We are going to fight for you!"

These days you have to have specifics. You can't talk about what is right or noble. You have to say what priorities are.
That is because the Democrats are by and large incompetent.

That is why I always laugh at the GOP projection of DNC conspiracy theories. The Democrats are far too incompetent to pull off any sort of elaborate scheme.

I saw that first-hand this past fall working with a Congressional campaign. They sank several hundred thousand dollars on an anti-gun ad in a rural district. And yes, they thought it was a good idea.
 

billmac91

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Mueller’s report is just getting picked apart now, and it just brings the entire investigation under scrutiny.

Like, what are we doing here?

From omitting key sentences in Dowd’s voicemail to Flynn’s lawyer, which tees up clear obstruction, but then looks rather mundane when full context is given, we now have this massive bombshell.

Konstantin Kilimnik was actually a State Department asset, and Mueller and team knew it. So as they continually draw inferences to Manafort working with Kilimnik in the report in regards to conspiracy/collusion, they’re making those inferences having all of Kilimnik 302’s and FBI interviews.

It’s just garbage.


I think everyone continues to wait with curiosity around Joseph Mifsud.
 

-Akronite-

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Mueller’s report is just getting picked apart now, and it just brings the entire investigation under scrutiny.

Like, what are we doing here?

From omitting key sentences in Dowd’s voicemail to Flynn’s lawyer, which tees up clear obstruction, but then looks rather mundane when full context is given, we now have this massive bombshell.

Konstantin Kilimnik was actually a State Department asset, and Mueller and team knew it. So as they continually draw inferences to Manafort working with Kilimnik in the report in regards to conspiracy/collusion, they’re making those inferences having all of Kilimnik 302’s and FBI interviews.

It’s just garbage.


I think everyone continues to wait with curiosity around Joseph Mifsud.
Care to share what was omitted?

And I'm not sure what your objection is or to who when it comes to the Kilimnik stuff.
 

AZ_

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Mueller’s report is just getting picked apart now, and it just brings the entire investigation under scrutiny.

Like, what are we doing here?

From omitting key sentences in Dowd’s voicemail to Flynn’s lawyer, which tees up clear obstruction, but then looks rather mundane when full context is given, we now have this massive bombshell.

Konstantin Kilimnik was actually a State Department asset, and Mueller and team knew it. So as they continually draw inferences to Manafort working with Kilimnik in the report in regards to conspiracy/collusion, they’re making those inferences having all of Kilimnik 302’s and FBI interviews.

It’s just garbage.


I think everyone continues to wait with curiosity around Joseph Mifsud.
They likely left that out of the report to protect their asset.

The judge in Manafort's case was aware. But now that we're not protecting assets at the behest of saving our corrupt President from looking bad on TV, I suppose this is what we're left with. Of course, I bet you a crisp $100 to the charity of your choice that Fox News and the propaganda arm of the right doesn't mention the fact that the judge was aware.

Dowd's voicemail most certainly looks like clear obstruction. At any other point in history, this would likely end his Presidency.
 
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Cavatt

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They likely left that out of the report to protect their asset.

The judge in Manafort's case was aware. But now that we're not protecting assets at the behest of saving our corrupt President from looking bad on TV, I suppose this is what we're left with. Of course, I bet you a crisp $100 to the charity of your choice that Fox News and the propaganda arm of the right doesn't mention the fact that the judge was aware.

Dowd's voicemail most certainly looks like clear obstruction. At any other point in history, this would likely end his Presidency.
Not only but also, this is Barr and the DOJ leaking classified information that is meant to make the President looking like he was set up. Exactly why Barr wanted the ability to declassify documents. Billmac is taking the wrong lesson from this. This is a national security risk as is Trump's whole presidency. Worried about unmasking, but not worried about exposing assets? These guys are going to get killed so the President can play the victim.
 

Cavatt

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Care to share what was omitted?

And I'm not sure what your objection is or to who when it comes to the Kilimnik stuff.
If you listen to the audio it's even worse than it seems in the transcript.
 

billmac91

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Care to share what was omitted?

And I'm not sure what your objection is or to who when it comes to the Kilimnik stuff.
Muller's report:

“On November 22, 2017” — after Flynn withdrew from the joint defense agreement he had with President Trump — “… the President’s personal counsel left a voicemail for Flynn’s counsel that said: ‘I understand your situation, but let me see if I can’t state it in starker terms … it wouldn’t surprise me if you’ve gone on to make a deal with … the government … if … there’s information that implicates the President, then we’ve got a national security issue … so, you know … we need some kind of heads up. Umn, just for the sake of protecting all our interests if we can … [R]emember what we’ve always said about the President and his feelings toward Flynn and, that still remains …”

Only after Judge Emmet Sullivan ordered the government to release a full transcript of the voicemail message did it become clear that the report mischaracterized Dowd’s voicemail message. The full message, that does not appear in the report, was as follows: “Hey, Rob, uhm, this is John again. Uh, maybe, I-I-I-’m-I’m sympathetic; I understand your situation, but let me see if I can’t … state it in … starker terms. If you have … and it wouldn’t surprise me if you’ve gone on to make a deal with, and, uh, work with the government, uh … I understand that you can’t join the joint defense; so that’s one thing. If, on the other hand, we have, there’s information that … implicates the president, then we’ve got a national security issue, or maybe a national security issue, I don’t know … some issue, we got to — we got to deal with, not only for the president, but for the country. So … uh … you know, then, then, you know, we need some kind of heads up. Um, just for the sake of … protecting all our interests, if we can, without you having to give up any … confidential information. So, uhm, and if it’s the former, then, you know, remember what we’ve always said about the President and his feelings toward Flynn and, that still remains, but — Well, in any event, uhm, let me know, and, uh, I appreciate your listening and taking the time. Thanks, pal.”

To leave out the entire context is appalling. At a minimum, you make all of the audio transcript available to the public so you can draw your own conclusions. The way they manipulated the entire transcript to make it the least favorable is embarrassing for them. And it undermines the rest f their work.

And just to put a point on the above, the context is critical. At the time of the voicemail, Dowd was unaware if Flynn had become a cooperating witness of the government, or if he was going to join the "joint defense" which would've allowed Flynn and his lawyers to share information with other defendants that had charges against them. That's critical. Flynn ultimately plead guilty and became a cooperating witness to the government, but he didn't have any catastrophic information to damage the president. Also see in the voicemail, Dowd states if he is a cooperating witness of the government, he wasn't requesting confidential information.

But now as more information comes out about characters in the report and how they were laid out as Russian assets when they're actually American assets......and Mueller knew they were American assets in the middle of 2018. But leads everyone to assume the opposite in his report. My point in regards to Kilimnik is this.....the Mueller report outlines him strictly as a Russian asset with Russian ties to the Kremlin. The assumption is Manafort is working with a pro-Russian asset, and potentially colluding with him. The problem is, and Mueller knew from the middle of 2018, is Kilimnik was actually an American asset that collected information on Russia and the Ukraine. Which leads to the Muller report.....if Mueller knows Kilimnik is an American asset, why is he describing him as anything but such in the report, and leading people to believe Manafort is working with the Kremlin. It's very odd.....

Just like it's very odd to whittle Dowd's voicemail down to the most negative/obstructionist way possible. Imagine the judge not ordering the full transcript be made available in Flynn's case. The American public would not have the full context of Dowd actually doing his job properly.
 
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billmac91

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They likely left that out of the report to protect their asset.

The judge in Manafort's case was aware. But now that we're not protecting assets at the behest of saving our corrupt President from looking bad on TV, I suppose this is what we're left with. Of course, I bet you a crisp $100 to the charity of your choice that Fox News and the propaganda arm of the right doesn't mention the fact that the judge was aware.

Dowd's voicemail most certainly looks like clear obstruction. At any other point in history, this would likely end his Presidency.
The flipside is they're lying to the American public......if Kilmnik is an American asset, but the Special Counsel doesn't want to describe it, fair. But to make Trump and Manafort look worse in that they're working with someone with Kremlin ties, is outrageous as well. They can't have it both ways......but ultimately, it looks like every time they're left with a chance to play it down the middle, or make it look as bad as possible, they choose the "bad as possible" path.
 

-Akronite-

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Muller's report:

“On November 22, 2017” — after Flynn withdrew from the joint defense agreement he had with President Trump — “… the President’s personal counsel left a voicemail for Flynn’s counsel that said: ‘I understand your situation, but let me see if I can’t state it in starker terms … it wouldn’t surprise me if you’ve gone on to make a deal with … the government … if … there’s information that implicates the President, then we’ve got a national security issue … so, you know … we need some kind of heads up. Umn, just for the sake of protecting all our interests if we can … [R]emember what we’ve always said about the President and his feelings toward Flynn and, that still remains …”

Only after Judge Emmet Sullivan ordered the government to release a full transcript of the voicemail message did it become clear that the report mischaracterized Dowd’s voicemail message. The full message, that does not appear in the report, was as follows: “Hey, Rob, uhm, this is John again. Uh, maybe, I-I-I-’m-I’m sympathetic; I understand your situation, but let me see if I can’t … state it in … starker terms. If you have … and it wouldn’t surprise me if you’ve gone on to make a deal with, and, uh, work with the government, uh … I understand that you can’t join the joint defense; so that’s one thing. If, on the other hand, we have, there’s information that … implicates the president, then we’ve got a national security issue, or maybe a national security issue, I don’t know … some issue, we got to — we got to deal with, not only for the president, but for the country. So … uh … you know, then, then, you know, we need some kind of heads up. Um, just for the sake of … protecting all our interests, if we can, without you having to give up any … confidential information. So, uhm, and if it’s the former, then, you know, remember what we’ve always said about the President and his feelings toward Flynn and, that still remains, but — Well, in any event, uhm, let me know, and, uh, I appreciate your listening and taking the time. Thanks, pal.”

To leave out the entire context is appalling. At a minimum, you make all of the audio transcript available to the public so you can draw your own conclusions. The way they manipulated the entire transcript to make it the least favorable is embarrassing for them. And it undermines the rest f their work.

And just to put a point on the above, the context is critical. At the time of the voicemail, Dowd was unaware if Flynn had become a cooperating witness of the government, or if he was going to join the "joint defense" which would've allowed Flynn and his lawyers to share information with other defendants that had charges against them. That's critical. Flynn ultimately plead guilty and became a cooperating witness to the government, but he didn't have any catastrophic information to damage the president. Also see in the voicemail, Dowd states if he is a cooperating witness of the government, he wasn't requesting confidential information.

But now as more information comes out about characters in the report and you they were laid out as Russian assets when they're actually American assets......and Mueller knew they were American assets in the middle of 2018. But leads everyone to assume the opposite in his report. My point in regards to Kilimnik is this.....the Mueller report outlines him strictly as a Russian asset with Russian ties to the Kremlin. The assumption is Manafort is working with a pro-Russian asset, and potentially colluding with him. The problem is, and Mueller knew from the middle of 2018, is Kilimnik was actually an American asset that collected information on Russia and the Ukraine. Which leads to the Muller report.....if Mueller knows Kilimnik is an American asset, why is he describing him as anything but such in the report, and leading people to believe Manafort is working with the Kremlin. It's very odd.....

Just like it's very odd to whittle Dowd's voicemail down to the most negative/obstructionist way possible. Imagine the judge not ordering the full transcript be made available in Flynn's case. The American public would not have the full context of Dowd actually doing his job properly.
I'm not sure how the context makes it better for Dowd and the president, but maybe I'm missing something. Isn't this still potentially dangling a pardon for Flynn to work with them rather than the government?

As for Kilimnik, what did Manafort know? Also not sure why Manafort who, to my understanding, shared polling data with the Russians, is in need of defense in the report, especially when it's irrelevant to the larger conclusions of the report. As in I could understand that being worthy of criticism but I'm not sure it's all that important.
 

AZ_

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The flipside is they're lying to the American public......if Kilmnik is an American asset, but the Special Counsel doesn't want to describe it, fair. But to make Trump and Manafort look worse in that they're working with someone with Kremlin ties, is outrageous as well. They can't have it both ways......but ultimately, it looks like every time they're left with a chance to play it down the middle, or make it look as bad as possible, they choose the "bad as possible" path.
If Kilmnik’s previous work doesn’t interact with the Trump investigation, it’s largely irrelevant.

It’s inexcusable that the Trump campaign chairman was so deep into this corrupt world he would be bumping into CIA assets.

It’s only going to be used to deflect from what Manafort did, which it absolutely should not.
 

-Akronite-

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The flipside is they're lying to the American public......if Kilmnik is an American asset, but the Special Counsel doesn't want to describe it, fair. But to make Trump and Manafort look worse in that they're working with someone with Kremlin ties, is outrageous as well. They can't have it both ways......but ultimately, it looks like every time they're left with a chance to play it down the middle, or make it look as bad as possible, they choose the "bad as possible" path.
LOL what? You can't have it both ways on this either. Mueller simultaneously mislead the American public by making Trump look as bad as possible while also punting on crucial decisions in regards to the president's criminality... I don't buy it.
 
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