The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

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Rich

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I had an epiphany. I'm sure others have had it too.

But Aemon isnt going mad on the ship to Old town. And hes not prophecying.

Nor is he referring to something other than whats going on in Old Town.

No, when he keeps repeating "The Sphinx is the riddle" its because Alleras (the Sphinx) and Marwyn have been using the candle to invade his dreams. That's why he knows who Alleras/Sarella is. Theyve been invading his mind.

I'm sure others have figured this out before me but still. Pretty proud of that one.

EDIT: So starting tonight I'm gonna do a re-read of every major chapter that may potentially deal with magic. So all Bran, Jon, Dany, Mel chapters. All chapters relating to Euron and the CItadel. I'm really down a rabbit hole here.

But I find it rather interesting that JUST before Euron brings his big blood ritual sacrifice fleet to Oldtown to meet up with the Redwynne Fleet, Marwyn peaces out to head across the sea. Kinda like Joe Exotic just happened to be gone when his alligator shed burned down.
 
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Rich

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Becoming convinced Brynden Rivers is not out here with the best of intentions.

And while we read the prologue of ADWD as an explainer on how Jon will go on living (in Ghost), I think people need to look at it as a possible explanation for Brynden Rivers.

Varamyr tries to go on living in another body. To pass his consciousness to the woman he's next to. BUt he makes a mental note that in a his new body he'd probably lose his powers.

Well guess what? Brynden wouldn't have to worry about that with Bran. And all of that "You're The Only Thing That Matters" talk setting Bran up as the hero is exactly that, a set-up. He's set up Jojen and now Bran.

I've already went into Bran's last chapter in ADWD and how dark it is. Likely eating a dead Jojen w/o knowing it. Seeing visions wherein people were making blood offerings to weirwood trees and he, through the dream, drinks it up.

And maybe it's reading to much into it but the CoTF say that Brynden is "the Last Greenseer." Which is, ya know, kinda odd when Bran is right there??
 

Rich

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Continuing with Brynden(Bloodraven)

His appearance, while not definitive proof of anything, certainly SEEMS like that of a bad guy:

A shade under six feet tall, Brynden was thin and gaunt with a grim forbidding aspect with sharp, vaguely sinister features
He also lost an eye and instead of covering that eye up he generally puts a patch over his other eye. Weird.

The rumors are not kind. He ruled Westeros as Hand (and defacto King) with "sorcery and spies."

He's definitely committed his One Big Sin by inviting Aenys BLackfyre to attend a Great Council wherein the new king would be chosen, promising safety, and then promptly having Aenys arrested upon arrival, imprisoned, and executed.

He deserted the Night's Watch after being elected Lord Commander.

The last two are pretty damning.

But most importantly, the event that I'd say kicks off the meat of the story occurs after he deserts and finds his way to the Children of the Forest.

A woods witch who is highly likely to be The Ghost of High Heart prophesied to Jaeharys II that the Prince that was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Thus, Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry by Jaeharys. They had three children, and their first, Rhaegar, set everything into motion when he ran off with Lyanna Stark.

Now, what does Thoros say about the Ghost of High Heart?

she has her own ways of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps.
Now who the hell whispers through weirwoods? We know who.

And my pet theory that I don't really believe: This is ALL just the culmination of the Targaryen/Blackfyre rivalry and the Blackwood/Bracken rivalry.

Bloodraven wants a Targaryen to finally, finally wipe out the Blackfyre's once and for all as well as their pet Sellswords, the Golden Company. It will be his way to declare final victory over his arch-nemesis, Aegor Rivers, who pushed Daemon Blackfyre to rebel and who was son to a Bracken mistress, while Brynden was son to a BLackwood mistress.
 

Rich

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So we're on the fifth season and Jesus man it gets so bad at this point. Watching now with a critical eye its..bad.

For instance, why the FUCK is Jon Snow and the Wildlings on the wrong fucking side of the Wall when they get back from Hardhomme? They SAILED there. So they went from fucking Eastwatch. When they sailed back to Eastwatch they decided to go to the other side of the wall and then to Castle Black????????????????????

The Stannis story line is just awful.

An actual line from Davos "20 or so men. No more. They destroyed ALL OF OUR FOOD STORES AND ALL OF OUR SIEGE WEAPONS."

20 men, in the middle of an entire army, ALL OF THE FOOD and ALL OF THE SIEGE WEAPONS.

So bad.
 

Sebastian

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So we're on the fifth season and Jesus man it gets so bad at this point. Watching now with a critical eye its..bad.

For instance, why the FUCK is Jon Snow and the Wildlings on the wrong fucking side of the Wall when they get back from Hardhomme? They SAILED there. So they went from fucking Eastwatch. When they sailed back to Eastwatch they decided to go to the other side of the wall and then to Castle Black????????????????????

The Stannis story line is just awful.

An actual line from Davos "20 or so men. No more. They destroyed ALL OF OUR FOOD STORES AND ALL OF OUR SIEGE WEAPONS."

20 men, in the middle of an entire army, ALL OF THE FOOD and ALL OF THE SIEGE WEAPONS.

So bad.
T'was character assassination.

And piss poor sloppy writing. They could have at least come up with a plausible reason for an army to freeze in the cold, shit.

It is as simple as:

Davos: "We've been here too long Your Grace. We've eaten through most of our supplies and there isn't so much as a kernel of corn within 50 miles of here. What the early snows didn't destroy in the unharvested fields, brigands and stragglers have taken. We must march back to the Wall, or treat with Manderley or take White Harbor from him now or we will starve to death! We can always have the fleet bring up supplies to the coast!"

Stannis: "Never. Our aim is Winterfell and Bolton. The cold effects us all the same. We march tomorrow. Ready the siege engines for transport."

Davos: "Your Grace, the cold, it has made the tension lines snap, and the metal brittle. The engines are useless. Without them we cannot take a castle as well built as Winterfell. Aye, its cold all the same, but they have walls and food in their bellies. We must withdraw! Live to fight another day."

Stannis: "No. We will march and win. Or march and die. There is no turning back."
 

Rich

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T'was character assassination.

And piss poor sloppy writing. They could have at least come up with a plausible reason for an army to freeze in the cold, shit.

It is as simple as:

Davos: "We've been here too long Your Grace. We've eaten through most of our supplies and there isn't so much as a kernel of corn within 50 miles of here. What the early snows didn't destroy in the unharvested fields, brigands and stragglers have taken. We must march back to the Wall, or treat with Manderley or take White Harbor from him now or we will starve to death! We can always have the fleet bring up supplies to the coast!"

Stannis: "Never. Our aim is Winterfell and Bolton. The cold effects us all the same. We march tomorrow. Ready the siege engines for transport."

Davos: "Your Grace, the cold, it has made the tension lines snap, and the metal brittle. The engines are useless. Without them we cannot take a castle as well built as Winterfell. Aye, its cold all the same, but they have walls and food in their bellies. We must withdraw! Live to fight another day."

Stannis: "No. We will march and win. Or march and die. There is no turning back."
The show really takes a downturn when they started writing their own original story lines. They're fairly bad writers.

They don't care about logical consistency at all. For instance, multiple times in season 5, once by Littlefinger, and once by Benioff himself, Stannis is referred to as having one of the finest military minds in Westeros.

And yet he does nothing to show that at all, and in fact, by letting RAmsay Bolton destroy all of his shit with 20 men and then letting Ramsay just surround him on the field of battle, looks like one of the dumbest military minds in Westeros.

When they chose to only do 7 1/2 seasons it obviously meant story lines had to be cut and various side character plots had to be given to main characters. But the problem is, they SUCKED at doing it in a logical manner.

Here are all of the absolutely dumb fucking story lines in 5:

1. Sansa being sold to the Boltons. Now, perhaps it makes some logical sense for Littlefinger to make his move on the Throne, what with Twyin dead, Tommen being a weak ruler, Cersei doing everything she possibly can to fuck over the Tyrells, and the Freys essentially taking command of the Riverlands. Ally the Vale with the Boltons and Freys, and you might be able to march South.

But Littlefinger specifically says to Sansa that he would put his money on..STANNIS WINNING. Let me say that again, Littlefinger tells Sansa that he thinks STANNIS WILL BEAT THE BOLTONS. So then, why would you ally with the Boltons if you think they're about to lose the fucking war? Now, I get it that Littlefinger probably figures he has no shot at allying himself with Stannis, what with what happened at the Blackwater. But there are other options out there...like, ya know, the Tyrells, whom Littlefinger already has a relationship with. Or the Martells, who despise the Lannisters entirely.

2. Dorne is just a total mess. I wasn't a huge fan of Dorne in the books, and I understand not wanting to introduce 8 Sand Sankes, Arianne, Quentyn, and a Prince Doran who is a much larger player in the books. That's a lot of new characters for a TV show 5 seasons in. Ok. So we have to condense the story and they chose to use the woman who we've already met in season 4. Fine. But, holy fuck is it stupid. First of all, every scene that involves the Sand Snakes is just cringe.

But the real issue, and its the issue that plagues the entire season, and eventually the rest of the series going forward, is the total lack of political consequences in any meaningful way. George doesn't let that happen, and when they're following George, you got to see that. JOffrey sucks as a ruler and is believed to be the child of incest? Alright, well here comes a crowd riot wherein Sansa almost gets raped. Ned telling Cersei he knows she fucks Jaime, ordering Twyin to the Capital and the arrest of the Mountain, and then not seizing the Throne to prevent Cersei and Joffrey from taking him out? Ok, there goes his head. Same with Robb.

But here, Elia and the Sand Snakes kill the Prince of Dorne and his son and...nothing. THey just...take over. With four people. The entire Dornish army just follows them w/o question. No political consequences at all in Dorne. We're just supposed to assume that assassinations and coups are just easy peasy, over and done.

Which flies totally in the face of what we know about assassinating beloved leaders. Littlefinger killed Lysa because she couldn't keep her mouth shut about John ARryn. Had people found out, they'd have executed Littlefinger in the Vale. But Elia? Nah, who cares bro...

Then, when they try to still have some semblance of a political drama as opposed to a series based around 3-4 Major Action Sequences a season with various annoying plot points in between, you get the stupidity of Jon being killed. So, they kill him for allowing Wildlings in...after letting the Wildlings in??????? Like....they're already in. Thorne LET THEM IN. In the books, they kill him because he's about to take a Wildling Army South and fight for Winterfell, clearly violating his oaths. By killing him, they actually stop that action. Here..they stop nothing. They do nothing. All of the Wildlings are already fucking south of the wall. Too late.

This continues into the later seasons. Cersei, after being found out as a incestuous, not only resumes her role as Queen w/o so much as a peep from the commoners or Lords, but she then kills off 1) Mace, Margaery and Loras Tyrell. One is the head of a beloved House who feeds the capital. His daughter is a beloved Queen who goes out of her way to help the poor and the other is a popular swordsmen who was won multiple tourneys. 2) The High Sparrow, a religious revolutionary who has captured the hearts of the city and the faith 3) Kevan Lannister, the eldest stateman of House Lannister and countless others.

And what happens to her? Well, Varys talks a little about how she's hated by the common folk but...that's it. I mean sure, Dorne and Highgarden join her enemy, but they die in the span of two episodes. Totally and completely. And when Cersei loses, it has zip to do with her poor ass decision making. Randomly killing off your allies, your very rich allies (when you're House is actually now broke), is a terrible idea. But she pays no price. She lost for the same reason whoever loses to Daenerys in the books will lose. Whether that's Cersei or fAegon or even Stannis on the Throne when she gets to Westeros. George has beaten us over the head time and time and time again: they'll lose because Daenerys has dragons and they don't. Cersei never paid once for her shitty decisions.

Which makes their decision to focus the end of the series on the political element truly disastrous. They stopped giving a fuck about showing any real political ramifications in season 5.


Also, I used to be a fan of keeping Beric and not bringing in Lady Stoneheart. I didn't like the character. But, seeing how they had no idea whatsoever how to use Jaime if he wasn't tied to Cersei (and probably just making the decision to keep Jaime with Cersei because they liked Lena too much), I'd have rather had Lady Stoneheart and the plot from the books. Because when they have to get Jaime out of KL for Cersei to 1) Beclown herself and get arrested by the Faith and 2) Blow up the Sept, causing the death of their son, they do so in the clumsiest, most boring ways possible. First, was this Dornish mission, that sucks ass. Later, it's the pointless Siege of RIverrun.

Then you've got the really idiotic shit Jaime puts up with. Like, ok dude, you love her even though she cheated on you with Lancel. But, um, she just caused YOUR SON to jump out of the window......and you're still fucking her? What a waste of a character arc.

/rant
 

Sebastian

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The show really takes a downturn when they started writing their own original story lines. They're fairly bad writers.

They don't care about logical consistency at all. For instance, multiple times in season 5, once by Littlefinger, and once by Benioff himself, Stannis is referred to as having one of the finest military minds in Westeros.

And yet he does nothing to show that at all, and in fact, by letting RAmsay Bolton destroy all of his shit with 20 men and then letting Ramsay just surround him on the field of battle, looks like one of the dumbest military minds in Westeros.

When they chose to only do 7 1/2 seasons it obviously meant story lines had to be cut and various side character plots had to be given to main characters. But the problem is, they SUCKED at doing it in a logical manner.

Here are all of the absolutely dumb fucking story lines in 5:

1. Sansa being sold to the Boltons. Now, perhaps it makes some logical sense for Littlefinger to make his move on the Throne, what with Twyin dead, Tommen being a weak ruler, Cersei doing everything she possibly can to fuck over the Tyrells, and the Freys essentially taking command of the Riverlands. Ally the Vale with the Boltons and Freys, and you might be able to march South.

But Littlefinger specifically says to Sansa that he would put his money on..STANNIS WINNING. Let me say that again, Littlefinger tells Sansa that he thinks STANNIS WILL BEAT THE BOLTONS. So then, why would you ally with the Boltons if you think they're about to lose the fucking war? Now, I get it that Littlefinger probably figures he has no shot at allying himself with Stannis, what with what happened at the Blackwater. But there are other options out there...like, ya know, the Tyrells, whom Littlefinger already has a relationship with. Or the Martells, who despise the Lannisters entirely.

2. Dorne is just a total mess. I wasn't a huge fan of Dorne in the books, and I understand not wanting to introduce 8 Sand Sankes, Arianne, Quentyn, and a Prince Doran who is a much larger player in the books. That's a lot of new characters for a TV show 5 seasons in. Ok. So we have to condense the story and they chose to use the woman who we've already met in season 4. Fine. But, holy fuck is it stupid. First of all, every scene that involves the Sand Snakes is just cringe.

But the real issue, and its the issue that plagues the entire season, and eventually the rest of the series going forward, is the total lack of political consequences in any meaningful way. George doesn't let that happen, and when they're following George, you got to see that. JOffrey sucks as a ruler and is believed to be the child of incest? Alright, well here comes a crowd riot wherein Sansa almost gets raped. Ned telling Cersei he knows she fucks Jaime, ordering Twyin to the Capital and the arrest of the Mountain, and then not seizing the Throne to prevent Cersei and Joffrey from taking him out? Ok, there goes his head. Same with Robb.

But here, Elia and the Sand Snakes kill the Prince of Dorne and his son and...nothing. THey just...take over. With four people. The entire Dornish army just follows them w/o question. No political consequences at all in Dorne. We're just supposed to assume that assassinations and coups are just easy peasy, over and done.

Which flies totally in the face of what we know about assassinating beloved leaders. Littlefinger killed Lysa because she couldn't keep her mouth shut about John ARryn. Had people found out, they'd have executed Littlefinger in the Vale. But Elia? Nah, who cares bro...

Then, when they try to still have some semblance of a political drama as opposed to a series based around 3-4 Major Action Sequences a season with various annoying plot points in between, you get the stupidity of Jon being killed. So, they kill him for allowing Wildlings in...after letting the Wildlings in??????? Like....they're already in. Thorne LET THEM IN. In the books, they kill him because he's about to take a Wildling Army South and fight for Winterfell, clearly violating his oaths. By killing him, they actually stop that action. Here..they stop nothing. They do nothing. All of the Wildlings are already fucking south of the wall. Too late.

This continues into the later seasons. Cersei, after being found out as a incestuous, not only resumes her role as Queen w/o so much as a peep from the commoners or Lords, but she then kills off 1) Mace, Margaery and Loras Tyrell. One is the head of a beloved House who feeds the capital. His daughter is a beloved Queen who goes out of her way to help the poor and the other is a popular swordsmen who was won multiple tourneys. 2) The High Sparrow, a religious revolutionary who has captured the hearts of the city and the faith 3) Kevan Lannister, the eldest stateman of House Lannister and countless others.

And what happens to her? Well, Varys talks a little about how she's hated by the common folk but...that's it. I mean sure, Dorne and Highgarden join her enemy, but they die in the span of two episodes. Totally and completely. And when Cersei loses, it has zip to do with her poor ass decision making. Randomly killing off your allies, your very rich allies (when you're House is actually now broke), is a terrible idea. But she pays no price. She lost for the same reason whoever loses to Daenerys in the books will lose. Whether that's Cersei or fAegon or even Stannis on the Throne when she gets to Westeros. George has beaten us over the head time and time and time again: they'll lose because Daenerys has dragons and they don't. Cersei never paid once for her shitty decisions.

Which makes their decision to focus the end of the series on the political element truly disastrous. They stopped giving a fuck about showing any real political ramifications in season 5.


Also, I used to be a fan of keeping Beric and not bringing in Lady Stoneheart. I didn't like the character. But, seeing how they had no idea whatsoever how to use Jaime if he wasn't tied to Cersei (and probably just making the decision to keep Jaime with Cersei because they liked Lena too much), I'd have rather had Lady Stoneheart and the plot from the books. Because when they have to get Jaime out of KL for Cersei to 1) Beclown herself and get arrested by the Faith and 2) Blow up the Sept, causing the death of their son, they do so in the clumsiest, most boring ways possible. First, was this Dornish mission, that sucks ass. Later, it's the pointless Siege of RIverrun.

Then you've got the really idiotic shit Jaime puts up with. Like, ok dude, you love her even though she cheated on you with Lancel. But, um, she just caused YOUR SON to jump out of the window......and you're still fucking her? What a waste of a character arc.

/rant
I wonder if they actively tried to sabotage their own show.
 

Jack Brickman

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I wonder if they actively tried to sabotage their own show.
I think they did, but probably not in the way you expected. I think they got sick of filming the show and pushed for it to end, but they wanted it to end about two seasons earlier than the story realistically called for because they were burnt out and wanted to move on.

I also think that they are very talented visual directors who suck at telling a story, and so once they ran out of quality source material, they were basically fucked. They could add a quality scene here or there, but the early seasons almost entirely relied on the strength of Martin's writing. Once all they had was an outline, it all fell apart and characters quickly devolved into caricatures of themselves.
 

Rich

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I think they did, but probably not in the way you expected. I think they got sick of filming the show and pushed for it to end, but they wanted it to end about two seasons earlier than the story realistically called for because they were burnt out and wanted to move on.

I also think that they are very talented visual directors who suck at telling a story, and so once they ran out of quality source material, they were basically fucked. They could add a quality scene here or there, but the early seasons almost entirely relied on the strength of Martin's writing. Once all they had was an outline, it all fell apart and characters quickly devolved into caricatures of themselves.
Yea and it's obvious they just decided to play to their strengths. Put all of their effort into the Big Events. The Battles, the huge plot reveals and plot twists, and just use the rest of it to get to those events.

So you have the awesome, awesome 20 minute scenes like Hardhomme and Cersei blowing up the Sept and the Field of Fire and in between you just have fairly bad television if I'm being honest.

I mean even the witty banter was gone later in the seasons. It's just dick joke after dick joke after dick joke. There's essentially zero political gamesmanship at all to be found anywhere. Varys is suddenly a dolt, for instance.
 

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I think they did, but probably not in the way you expected. I think they got sick of filming the show and pushed for it to end, but they wanted it to end about two seasons earlier than the story realistically called for because they were burnt out and wanted to move on.

I also think that they are very talented visual directors who suck at telling a story, and so once they ran out of quality source material, they were basically fucked. They could add a quality scene here or there, but the early seasons almost entirely relied on the strength of Martin's writing. Once all they had was an outline, it all fell apart and characters quickly devolved into caricatures of themselves.
This is exactly what happened.
 

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I’m still pissed the White Walkers were just the generic bad villain with no explanation of who they are and what they want. Then in a matter of 80 minutes they’re just wiped out.

Going from an amazing opening scene from the pilot to their demise makes me want to puke.
 

Chris

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I’m still pissed the White Walkers were just the generic bad villain with no explanation of who they are and what they want. Then in a matter of 80 minutes they’re just wiped out.

Going from an amazing opening scene from the pilot to their demise makes me want to puke.
Easily one of the worst parts of Season 8.
 

Rich

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Lol think of all of then shot episode 3 decided to just not explain.

Why did Valyrian Steel kill the Night King but dragonfire didn't? What's the Red God up to? Why did Melisandre just fade into nothing? Why were Beric and Jon able to come back to life?
 

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Lol think of all of then shot episode 3 decided to just not explain.

Why did Valyrian Steel kill the Night King but dragonfire didn't? What's the Red God up to? Why did Melisandre just fade into nothing? Why were Beric and Jon able to come back to life?
I think Melisandre fading away was the only thing that made sense. We knew she was incredibly old and used a glamour to maintain her youthful appearance. So, just removing it was enough for her to turn to dust.

They sort of said at the end that Beric came back to save Arya. That means Jon came back to... What? Kill Dany? Why didn't he just die after that then too? The Red God was just God I guess? trying to figure out what Jon actually did after he came back to life and the only thing that jumps to mind is killing Dany and beating Ramsay, which was really the knights of the vale. He wasn't really instrumental in anything, and I found that shocking in the last season.

What's the relationship between Dragonglass and Valyrian steel? Wait, so having a dragon make glass imparts it with special properties so it can kill a White Walker, but straight from the Horses mouth dragon fire has no effect? Very confusing. Is dragon glass just obsidian or was it made by dragons? They could have done any number of things to explain this, including the idea that Valyrian steel is given its power by combining steel with glass counter intuitively.

I think George gave them 5 reveals or so, but he clearly didn't explain everything. I find it hard to believe that the guy that feels the desire to flesh out everything to such a degree will be so cavalier wrapping it up himself and not answering these questions. All these side mysteries, including the WW will have to be explained, and even if he wasn't going to originally, he saw what a failure the wrap was. He is much more focused on the magic part than the show was. The whole dragon glass candle etc. Faceless men seem to actually be magic in the books. Etc etc
 

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I think Melisandre fading away was the only thing that made sense. We knew she was incredibly old and used a glamour to maintain her youthful appearance. So, just removing it was enough for her to turn to dust.

They sort of said at the end that Beric came back to save Arya. That means Jon came back to... What? Kill Dany? Why didn't he just die after that then too? The Red God was just God I guess? trying to figure out what Jon actually did after he came back to life and the only thing that jumps to mind is killing Dany and beating Ramsay, which was really the knights of the vale. He wasn't really instrumental in anything, and I found that shocking in the last season.

What's the relationship between Dragonglass and Valyrian steel? Wait, so having a dragon make glass imparts it with special properties so it can kill a White Walker, but straight from the Horses mouth dragon fire has no effect? Very confusing. Is dragon glass just obsidian or was it made by dragons? They could have done any number of things to explain this, including the idea that Valyrian steel is given its power by combining steel with glass counter intuitively.

I think George gave them 5 reveals or so, but he clearly didn't explain everything. I find it hard to believe that the guy that feels the desire to flesh out everything to such a degree will be so cavalier wrapping it up himself and not answering these questions. All these side mysteries, including the WW will have to be explained, and even if he wasn't going to originally, he saw what a failure the wrap was. He is much more focused on the magic part than the show was. The whole dragon glass candle etc. Faceless men seem to actually be magic in the books. Etc etc
I agree that they completely screwed the pooch by leaving so many loose threads. However, if Jon doesn't come back, there's no battle at all at Winterfell because the Knights of the Vale certainly weren't going to take on the North by themselves. And that means the White Walkers likely overwhelm Winterfell completely because there will be no Jon and Danaerys to lead a defense, and Arya likely never gets her shot.

Still, the whole thing was an utter mess.
 

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