The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Cavatt

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
20,929
Reaction score
21,698
Points
135
I agree that they completely screwed the pooch by leaving so many loose threads. However, if Jon doesn't come back, there's no battle at all at Winterfell because the Knights of the Vale certainly weren't going to take on the North by themselves. And that means the White Walkers likely overwhelm Winterfell completely because there will be no Jon and Danaerys to lead a defense, and Arya likely never gets her shot.

Still, the whole thing was an utter mess.
Do the White Walkers make it past the wall if they don't get Dany's Dragon, which is Jon's fault? Hard to say. Agreed it is a total mess. And again, if that was why he was brought back, then he should have just keeled over afterwards.
 

The Human Q-Tip

Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up!
Moderator
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
25,513
Reaction score
37,162
Points
148
Do the White Walkers make it past the wall if they don't get Dany's Dragon, which is Jon's fault? Hard to say. Agreed it is a total mess. And again, if that was why he was brought back, then he should have just keeled over afterwards.
Well, killing Danaerys was a pretty huge thing as well. Nobody else likely could have gotten the shot.

I think the Ice Dragon blasting the wall made it easier. But without Jon, all the wildings at Hardhome would have been lost, and joined the NK's army. And there wouldn't have been anyone manning any of the walls other than the few brothers at Castle Black. So I think they'd have crossed anyway. Now maybe it is possible that the WW themselves couldn't cross the wall until it was blasted by ice fire...but D&D never really said that.
 

Rich

Saucin'
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
31,437
Reaction score
37,034
Points
148
Ah you guys are just trying to reason out the unreasonable.

The Red God wont be so ambiguous when George tells the story. Likely there is no God at all. At least not like Melisandre believes.
 

Rich

Saucin'
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
31,437
Reaction score
37,034
Points
148
Boy oh boy s6e10.

When I first watched this, and on many of rewatches after, this was my second favorite episode ever. And it featured my favorite 20 minutes ever. And still, those opening 20 minutes are my favorite.

But this episode just....

Like, there's the silliness of Varys teleporting around the world. Varys promising Fire and Blood and then next season recoiling at the thought? Bran watching Jon be born but for some unknown reason not getting close enough to hear his name??

But the two major, major gripes.

1) How, exactly, does Cersei have a claim to the Throne? I mean..who?What? Even if every Baratheon and every distant Baratheon relative is dead, and by some ancient law if that happens then the crown passes to the Queen and her family...Cersei wasn't Joffrey's Queen lol.

So she just seats herself on the Throne and no one says shit? There's no uprising, no protest, nothing? This from the show that had King's rising up left and right when it became known that Joffrey was illegitimate. Riots starting in the streets because of it?

I remember King Stannis making a point about this long ago and I brushed it off, as I did much of the criticism at the time, convinced that D&D were just trying to narrow it down to the nitty gritty. I was very wrong.

2) I realized much too late that this is where the nail was placed in the coffin that was Jaime's arc. So, his entire arc this entire time has been that while, yes, he's an asshole and deserving of death, the ONE thing that everyone across the world knows him for, killing his own King, was his most honorable act. And deep down he's been trying to restore his honor. So here we are, episode 10, and Cersei does the exact thing that Jaime ruined his honor for, lights the wildfire. Not only that, it causes their son to throw himself out a window.

ANd Jaime says..not a word. Nothing. Not even an argument.

Personally, I imagine it's exactly the opposite in the books. Cersei, with her enemies closing in around her (maybe fAegon and Arianne, maybe Dany, maybe both) has decided to light the fuse and blow the city up. She has grown to love the flames. And Jaime shows up, just in the nick of time, and does the deed again. Now I suspect it will be a moment of extreme irony as Dany will proceed to then blow the wildfire up anyway, which will just be the peak of tragic, but still, it makes Jaime's story make some damn sense.
 

The Human Q-Tip

Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up!
Moderator
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
25,513
Reaction score
37,162
Points
148
Boy oh boy s6e10.

When I first watched this, and on many of rewatches after, this was my second favorite episode ever. And it featured my favorite 20 minutes ever. And still, those opening 20 minutes are my favorite.

But this episode just....

Like, there's the silliness of Varys teleporting around the world. Varys promising Fire and Blood and then next season recoiling at the thought? Bran watching Jon be born but for some unknown reason not getting close enough to hear his name??

But the two major, major gripes.

1) How, exactly, does Cersei have a claim to the Throne? I mean..who?What? Even if every Baratheon and every distant Baratheon relative is dead, and by some ancient law if that happens then the crown passes to the Queen and her family...Cersei wasn't Joffrey's Queen lol.

So she just seats herself on the Throne and no one says shit? There's no uprising, no protest, nothing? This from the show that had King's rising up left and right when it became known that Joffrey was illegitimate. Riots starting in the streets because of it?

I remember King Stannis making a point about this long ago and I brushed it off, as I did much of the criticism at the time, convinced that D&D were just trying to narrow it down to the nitty gritty. I was very wrong.

2) I realized much too late that this is where the nail was placed in the coffin that was Jaime's arc. So, his entire arc this entire time has been that while, yes, he's an asshole and deserving of death, the ONE thing that everyone across the world knows him for, killing his own King, was his most honorable act. And deep down he's been trying to restore his honor. So here we are, episode 10, and Cersei does the exact thing that Jaime ruined his honor for, lights the wildfire. Not only that, it causes their son to throw himself out a window.

ANd Jaime says..not a word. Nothing. Not even an argument.

Personally, I imagine it's exactly the opposite in the books. Cersei, with her enemies closing in around her (maybe fAegon and Arianne, maybe Dany, maybe both) has decided to light the fuse and blow the city up. She has grown to love the flames. And Jaime shows up, just in the nick of time, and does the deed again. Now I suspect it will be a moment of extreme irony as Dany will proceed to then blow the wildfire up anyway, which will just be the peak of tragic, but still, it makes Jaime's story make some damn sense.
I agree with everything in there...except Jaime.

Way back in 1998, on one of the first precursers to the Westeros board, Jaime's eventual redemption was a hot topic. Most expected that to happen, and I argued it would be pretty crappy if it did. First, because it was so predictable. But second, because Jaime was truly a son of a bitch and shouldn't get off that easy. You don't toss a kid out of a window and laugh about it if you're really a good guy "deep down". Honestly, it was the type of Romantic claptrap that tends to piss me off in books.

I think Jaime failing redemption, and succumbing to human weakness by siding ultimately with his sister, is a more believable arc for his character. It might not be the best fit for the literary arc of his character, but I actually hoped he'd fail at the end and get the shitty ending he deserved. He wanted to be more than he was, but he was just too weak morally.

Killing Aerys...really, how noble was that? Aerys had lost, and having every in KL dying a fiery death doesn't benefit anyone. Including Jaime. So he kills Aerys, which benefits him just as much as everyone else, and is such an arrogant prick that he doesn't even mention it because he thinks everyone else is beneath him.

I don't know how it will happen in the books, but I'm hoping the S.O.B. doesn't die a hero.
 
Last edited:

Chris

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
36,059
Reaction score
22,451
Points
135
Jaime’s ending was such shit in the show. Praying George has something better in store. Dying a hero is fucking cliche and not really what I desire, but it’s gotta be better than the tripe we ended up with in the show.

Fuck Season 8.

On Jaime- not getting into a morality debate on this character because its been done to death across the Internet, but I think saying killing Aerys and saving the city wasn’t a big deal is kind of unfair and downplaying it a bit. Really, as a Kingsguard and sworn to Aerys he “should have” let it happen. Jaime clearly isn’t afraid to die, either. We can all draw our own opinions but George clearly intends for us to think of it as a heroic act, I guess.

I always read Jaime as a truly honorable person deep down who has been corrupted and perversed by Cersei over time. Cersei is truly wicked to the core, and she has dragged Jaime down with her. In the show, the Olenna and Jaime exchange in Season 7 always seemed to kind of acknowledge that.

Just my interpretation, though.
 
Last edited:

Rich

Saucin'
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
31,437
Reaction score
37,034
Points
148
I agree with everything in there...except Jaime.

Way back in 1998, on one of the first precursers to the Westeros board, Jaime's eventual redemption was a hot topic. Most expected that to happen, and I argued it would be pretty crappy if it did. First, because it was so predictable. But second, because Jaime was truly a son of a bitch and shouldn't get off that easy. You don't toss a kid out of a window and laugh about it if you're really a good guy "deep down". Honestly, it was the type of Romantic claptrap that tends to piss me off in books.

I think Jaime failing redemption, and succumbing to human weakness by siding ultimately with his sister, is a more believable arc for his character. It might not be the best fit for the literary arc of his character, but I actually hoped he'd fail at the end and get the shitty ending he deserved. He wanted to be more than he was, but he was just too weak morally.

Killing Aerys...really, how noble was that? Aerys had lost, and having every in KL die a fiery death doesn't benefit anyone. Including Jaime. So he kills Aerys, which benefits him just as much as everyone else, and is such an arrogant prick that he doesn't even mention it because he thinks everyone else is beneath him.

I don't know how it will happen in the books, but I'm hoping the S.O.B. doesn't die a hero.
The thing is I'm not sure Jaime is THAT different from some of our other characters who we deem "good."

Bran is a good example. Read the prologue of Adwd when you get the chance. When the POV guy tries to warg the spearwive she is in so much pain and fights it off so violently that she claws half her own face off and bites off her tongue.

Ok, by the time we get to Bran in ADWD he is warging Hodor JUST BECAUSE. Hes warging him and following meera and Jojen around without telling anyone. He admits to himself that it tortures Hodor and that he can taste Hodors fear. Yet he does it anyway. Over and over. Just so he can feel big and strong.

Now, I dunno if that's equivalent to pushing a kid out of a window, but the books make clear warring into a human is an abomination and to not be done.

My point here is: what does Bran deserve if Jaime cant be redeemed?

That said I see/hope Jaimes death is heroic ONLY TO HIM. He'll be the only person who knows what he did right before he dies and it'll mean nothing at all.

Because as I imagine it/hope, there will be a three way battle at Kings Landing. Daenerys, fAegon, and the Lannisters. And its during this time Cersei decides to fulfill her wish and finish what the Mad King started.

Let the victor be King/Queen of the ashes. And Jaime stops her in the Throne room only to then, shortly after, still have the city go up in flames via a Dragonfire+Wildfire combo. So he still dies the same way he otherwise would have, and his heroic death will be known to no one else will all be for naught.

Thats my fan fiction hope anyway.

But Id really like to get your opinion on Bran though. D&D were clearly not terribly concerned about his story and removed, well, almost all of it.
 
Last edited:

Chris

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
36,059
Reaction score
22,451
Points
135
The thing is I'm not sure Jaime is THAT different from some of our other characters who we deem "good."

Bran is a good example. Read the prologue of Adwd when you get the chance. When the POV guy tries to warg the spearwive she is in so much pain and fights it off so violently that she claws half her own face off and bites off her tongue.

Ok, by the time we get to Bran in ADWD he is warging Hodor JUST BECAUSE. Hes warging him and following meera and women around without telling anyone. He admits to himself that it tortures Hodor and that he can taste Hodors fear. Yet he does it anyway. Over and over. Just so he can feel big and strong.

Now, I dunno if that's equivalent to pushing a kid out of a window, but the books make clear warring into a human is an abomination and to not be done.

My point here is: what does Bran deserve if Jaime cant be redeemed?

That said I see/hope Jaimes death is heroic ONLY TO HIM. He'll be the only person who knows what he did right before he dies and it'll mean nothing at all.

Because as I imagine it/hope, there will be a three way battle at Kings Landing. Daenerys, fAegon, and the Lannisters. And its during this time Verse decides to fulfill her wish and finish what the Mad King started.

Let the victor be King/Queen of the ashes. And Jaime stops her in the Throne room only to then, shortly after, still have the city go up in flames via a Dragonfire+Wildfire combo. So he still dies the same way he otherwise would have, and his heroic death will be known to no one else will all be for naught.

Thats my fan fiction hope anyway.

But Id really like to get your opinion on Bran though. D&D were clearly not terribly concerned about his story and removed, well, almost all of it.
I mean everybody loves Tormund and thinks hes the greatest thing since sliced bread yet we watch him murder dozens of innocent people in cold blood. Dude is way worse than Jaime. (Only referring to the show, I think Tormund was portrayed better in the books iirc). Show also does make Jaime look a bit worse... murders his cousin which is way out of character for him going by how he’s portrayed in the book, I think.

People just pick and choose though.
 

Man Called X

Sexton Island
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
15,963
Reaction score
19,736
Points
123
I mean everybody loves Tormund and thinks hes the greatest thing since sliced bread yet we watch him murder dozens of innocent people in cold blood. Dude is way worse than Jaime. (Only referring to the show, I think Tormund was portrayed better in the books iirc). Show also does make Jaime look a bit worse... murders his cousin which is way out of character for him going by how he’s portrayed in the book, I think.

People just pick and choose though.
Everyone is scum. No one is the villain of their own story. It's basically the entire premise of this book series.
 

Rich

Saucin'
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
31,437
Reaction score
37,034
Points
148
I mean everybody loves Tormund and thinks hes the greatest thing since sliced bread yet we watch him murder dozens of innocent people in cold blood. Dude is way worse than Jaime. (Only referring to the show, I think Tormund was portrayed better in the books iirc). Show also does make Jaime look a bit worse... murders his cousin which is way out of character for him going by how he’s portrayed in the book, I think.

People just pick and choose though.
Also the Sept rape scene. Pretty sure it wasn't rape in the books.

Also say we would get Jaime's view of this. So it doesn't HAVE to be heroic at all when/if he kills her. He doesn't have to think about how much he loves her and how torn he is but he must do it for the good of the realm.

He might decide he simply can't get over the fact that she fucked Lancel and kills her out of jealousy.
 

Chris

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
36,059
Reaction score
22,451
Points
135
Everyone is scum. No one is the villain of their own story. It's basically the entire premise of this book series.
Basically yes. Not everyone but, by today’s standards? Most of these people are scum. Or at least morally grey. That’s most realistic honestly. Very few people are pure evil or pure good.
 

Cavatt

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
20,929
Reaction score
21,698
Points
135
Bran becoming the kind is the worst part of the show. Like he basically knows everything. The idea that this enlightened omniscient guy wants to be a king is just weird. Like his predecessor is entwined in some old roots and is locked underground. No one knows he exists while he carefully manipulates things behind the scenes, while Bran becomes the #1 frontman who makes laws and figures out monetary policy etc? It is so weird. It's like if Dr Manhattan runs for president in Watchmen lol. That is what he was destined to do?

Also, Jon Snow kills a usurper to his thrown after she killed half the population of the capital city? You don't go to jail for that, you get a medal I am pretty sure.
 

Rich

Saucin'
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
31,437
Reaction score
37,034
Points
148
.
Bran becoming the kind is the worst part of the show. Like he basically knows everything. The idea that this enlightened omniscient guy wants to be a king is just weird. Like his predecessor is entwined in some old roots and is locked underground. No one knows he exists while he carefully manipulates things behind the scenes, while Bran becomes the #1 frontman who makes laws and figures out monetary policy etc? It is so weird. It's like if Dr Manhattan runs for president in Watchmen lol. That is what he was destined to do?

Also, Jon Snow kills a usurper to his thrown after she killed half the population of the capital city? You don't go to jail for that, you get a medal I am pretty sure.
Bran's story is just awful. Truly, truly awful.

It becomes so very apparent in s6 when they just shoehorn in their own shit. He sees, essentially, NONE of his visions from ADWD. Doesn't eat the paste. Doesn't see the skulls piled up of all of the other "dreamers." Gets "touched" by the Night King (and that's never explained btw).

And then you've got Hodor. This big, huge reveal to end e5 and then THATS IT. Bran never even mentions it again. Doesn't think about it. Doesn't talk about it. Doesn't even mention Hodor's name again.

Let alone actually does anything with this newly discovered power.


Also, I'm fairly certain he won't be omniscient in the books and his sight will be connected to the fucking trees, which is what makes sense. As opposed to the show, wherein he can just see every event at every point in time no matter where it occurred.

Thats kinda the whole point of the damn faces in the Weirwood trees.
 

Chris

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
36,059
Reaction score
22,451
Points
135
Yeah, Jon getting sentenced to the Wall for committing a good deed is insane. All to “prevent a war” yeah okay.... there’s what 5,000 Unsullied at most left?
 

Radio

Top