This team will be fun to watch

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JJ_PR

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Mike Chernoff blew up the roster, & rightfully so. This team came close many times but kept losing to the Yankshits.

We have an amazing farm system which means plenty of young players will get an opportunity in the majors. There are so many question marks with this team moving forward because there's a youth movement going on. I love it!

It's gonna be insanely fun watching our young players try to prove themselves, led by Jose Ramirez, who is the veteran of this team & Terry Francona, one of the best managers in the business. Who will emerge as a major league quality player? There are many who could fit the bill.

This team will exceed expectations this year.
 

JJ_PR

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This is the “Koby Altman nailed the rebuild” thread of the Tribe section isn’t it.
I love watching rebulding teams, fresh faces making a name for themselves as opposed to watching the same guys over & over, getting bounced in the first round. Chernoff had to try something different & he did.

Also, Eddie Rosario was a good pickup. He's from Puerto Rico just like I am. I like his game.
 
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Mott the Hoople

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The Indians will be a fun team to watch. I enjoy watching young players blend in with veterans when they are given an opportunity. I just don't think our talent level is on par with other teams in the league, or our division.
But I will always be an indians fan. Just in case.
 

Benway

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We may expect greatly improved offense from every spot in the lineup which disappointed in 2020.

Now, Every major league team can certainly make that claim, but the key advantage here is our rampant colossal disappointments!

We also have little fear of our productive hitters declining, because we had so few productive hitters!

See how it all falls into place?
 

CDAV45

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Mike Chernoff blew up the roster, & rightfully so. This team came close many times but kept losing to the Yankshits.

We have an amazing farm system which means plenty of young players will get an opportunity in the majors. There are so many question marks with this team moving forward because there's a youth movement going on. I love it!

It's gonna be insanely fun watching our young players try to prove themselves, led by Jose Ramirez, who is the veteran of this team & Terry Francona, one of the best managers in the business. Who will emerge as a major league quality player? There are many who could fit the bill.

This team will exceed expectations this year.
Great to hear from you JJ. I love your enthusiasm. I don't know if MC "blew up the roster" or just cut as much payroll as possible, and it doesn't really matter to me. Even if they don't win the division or make the playoffs, it would be hard to argue that this organization isn't headed in the right direction.
 
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Alabuckeye

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I do think the organization, talent wise, is headed in the right direction. They continue to develop pitching at a rate that is just phenomenal, and have stocked positional talent that they just didn't have 2 years ago. It feels like they continue to ignore developing OF talent.......but everywhere else there seems to be a path to continuing talent.

As far as the organization itself......much appears to be in flux and is less solid than it has been in.....say 30 years?
From ownership questions given the drastically decreased payrolls, the loss of ticket sales, the loss of the minority owner...
to FO questions regarding this stupid Mickey C situation.....
to Tito's health and questions about the same MC situation.......

I will say I agree with the OP. I also love watching a young team with some perceived talent grow and improve.
 

CATS44

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I dont think our roster lacks the talent to compete. In fact, IMO the team is extremely talented.

We have JRam, Hernandez, Franmil, ERosa, and the catchers. They are established and not at an age to expect much digression. Franmil should improve significantly at some point.

The three top starters are young, but established, and at the age where improvement is expected.

Now, lets look at the talent level of the rest.

Bauers was a top 60 prospect.
Gimenez top 50.
Naylor top 100.
ARosa top 5.
Allen top 90.
Quantrill top 50.
TMac top 30.
H Ramirez top 90.
Hedges top 30.

Some sources listed Karinchak and Clase as the two best relief prospects in MLB.

TMac, Naylor, Bauers, Gimenez were all 50 FVs. ARosa was a 65.

This team is hardly lacking in talent. It is lacking in experience.
 

biggie4

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My God, break up the Indians.
I can see that excitement is building.
 

DaNewCavs

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I dont think our roster lacks the talent to compete. In fact, IMO the team is extremely talented.

We have JRam, Hernandez, Franmil, ERosa, and the catchers. They are established and not at an age to expect much digression. Franmil should improve significantly at some point.

The three top starters are young, but established, and at the age where improvement is expected.

Now, lets look at the talent level of the rest.

Bauers was a top 60 prospect.
Gimenez top 50.
Naylor top 100.
ARosa top 5.
Allen top 90.
Quantrill top 50.
TMac top 30.
H Ramirez top 90.
Hedges top 30.

Some sources listed Karinchak and Clase as the two best relief prospects in MLB.

TMac, Naylor, Bauers, Gimenez were all 50 FVs. ARosa was a 65.

This team is hardly lacking in talent. It is lacking in experience.
So when does the clock start where we can start talking about when they will be free agents.
 

WhoAzcue

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So when does the clock start where we can start talking about when they will be free agents.
Um...the minute they are major leaguers? How long do you think most players are productive anyway? How long is their "prime"? Do you really want every guy that comes through Cleveland for more than the six or seven years of control that we get? What exactly do you want? Do you want to overpay guys who are free agents? Do you want to gamble on extensions for every player? I really don't get this attitude. In collegiate sports there is a FERVENT following for football and basketball teams where AT BEST you get four years to enjoy players, most of the time much less for the stars. But the Indians' six or seven years of control, which actually force teams to sharpen their wits, somehow means we shouldn't get involved with the team because most of the players are ONLY going to be around for the bulk of their best years. Man oh man.
 

CATS44

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The more I think about it, the more I dont see nearly as big of a problem in how the Indians handle this situation of not retaining their best players into free agency. In fact, just the opposite. Lets look back at the past twenty years.

We had CC for 7.5 years and paid him about $37 mil. Milwaukee had him a half year. The Yankees had him eleven years and paid him $227 mil. His years for us were very good. His years for NY were HOF worthy. But we also got ten years of Michael Brantley, for which we paid about $38 mil. Thats an overall plus.

We had Cliff Lee for 6.5 years in which he was up and down, but won a CY. We paid him around $15 mil. He played another 6.5, was very good, and got paid $127 mil. But we also got Cookie for eleven years, in which he was mostly very good, for which we paid $44 mil. The jury will be out a long time on the return we got for Cookie, but even with zero return, the Lee deal was a big plus.


We had Victor for about 5.5 years and paid him around $14 mil. He was very good for us and continued to be very good for another 9.5 years, for which he got paid $127 mil. We also got five so so years out of Masterson for about $10 mil.

We got five very good years from Choo for which we paid about $10 mil. He continued to be very good for eight years, but got paid $137 mil. We also got six very good years from Bryan Shaw for $10 mil plus 5.5 up and down years from Bauer that cost around $27 mil. The return on Bauer is yet to be determined, but at the very least Bauer will have made $119 mil by the time he has pitched 4.5 years after leaving Cleveland.

We got six years out of Lindor for about $30 mil. He will make $22 mil this year. He will make at least $300 million after that. We do not know yet what the return is.

Kluber gave us about seven years, one of which he was hurt. Five of those years may be the greatest Indians pitching feat in the last 100 years, including two CYs. For that we paid about $42 mil. Texas paid him $18 mil for one inning. The Yanks will pay him $11 mil this year. The return for Kluber rests solely on Clase.

Clevinger gave us about 4.5 years for which we paid about $6 mil. SD got four starts out of him and will pay him about $11 mil over the next two seasons. The return for Sunshine is TBD.

We did extend three and kept them thru their contracts...Kip, Pronk, and Brantley.

Kip cost us $40 mil for three years of substandard production, due to the fact injuries had sapped his abilities. His contract became an albatross.

Brantley cost us about $27 mil over his last three seasons, two of which were destroyed by injury.

Hafner wasn't close to being Pronk his last five years here, only playing 100 games once, and never having 400 ABs in a season...all for $57 mil.

In hindsight, as much as they were beloved here, the org would have been better off had we traded all three in their earlier years, instead of playing out the string.

A few notes on all this..

1) The idea that our SOP is trading our best youngsters when they are still young is overblown.

2) Discounting the four most recent trades, the overall return on the others was insane. All those trades, excepting Victor, strengthened the organization. The other t
four are TBD, but it is unlikely that all of Franmil, Allen, Moss, Naylor, Arias, Quantrill, Clase, Rosario, Gimenez, Wolf, and Greene will bust. IMO the odds are far better that we will end up with several long term productive players, some starting this season.




3) Nobody can reasonably think that the Indians, no matter who the owner was, could pay the kind of money to have retained any of those players in their prime.

4) History shows us that we should have traded more of our youngsters, rather than extending them well into their 30s.

5) While we fans might complain about these types of trades, the results have shown our FO to be geniuses.

6) Showing that it is impossible to satisfy fans, there are multiple posts in multiple threads almost demanding that the FO trade JRam, Biebs, or Plesac...or all three...right now.
 
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The more I think about it, the more I dont see nearly as big of a problem in how the Indians handle this situation of not retaining their best players into free agency. In fact, just the opposite. Lets look back at the past twenty years.

We had CC for 7.5 years and paid him about $37 mil. Milwaukee had him a half year. The Yankees had him eleven years and paid him $227 mil. His years for us were very good. His years for NY were HOF worthy. But we also got ten years of Michael Brantley, for which we paid about $38 mil. Thats an overall plus.

We had Cliff Lee for 6.5 years in which he was up and down, but won a CY. We paid him around $15 mil. He played another 6.5, was very good, and got paid $127 mil. But we also got Cookie for eleven years, in which he was mostly very good, for which we paid $44 mil. The jury will be out a long time on the return we got for Cookie, but even with zero return, the Lee deal was a big plus.


We had Victor for about 5.5 years and paid him around $14 mil. He was very good for us and continued to be very good for another 9.5 years, for which he got paid $127 mil. We also got five so so years out of Masterson for about $10 mil.

We got five very good years from Choo for which we paid about $10 mil. He continued to be very good for eight years, but got paid $137 mil. We also got six very good years from Bryan Shaw for $10 mil plus 5.5 up and down years from Bauer that cost around $27 mil. The return on Bauer is yet to be determined, but at the very least Bauer will have made $119 mil by the time he has pitched 4.5 years after leaving Cleveland.

We got six years out of Lindor for about $30 mil. He will make $22 mil this year. He will make at least $300 million after that. We do not know yet what the return is.

Kluber gave us about seven years, one of which he was hurt. Five of those years may be the greatest Indians pitching feat in the last 100 years, including two CYs. For that we paid about $42 mil. Texas paid him $18 mil for one inning. The Yanks will pay him $11 mil this year. The return for Kluber rests solely on Clase.

Clevinger gave us about 4.5 years for which we paid about $6 mil. SD got four starts out of him and will pay him about $11 mil over the next two seasons. The return for Sunshine is TBD.

We did extend three and kept them thru their contracts...Kip, Pronk, and Brantley.

Kip cost us $40 mil for three years of substandard production, due to the fact injuries had sapped his abilities. His contract became an albatross.

Brantley cost us about $27 mil over his last three seasons, two of which were destroyed by injury.

Hafner wasn't close to being Pronk his last five years here, only playing 100 games once, and never having 400 ABs in a season...all for $57 mil.

In hindsight, as much as they were beloved here, the org would have been better off had we traded all three in their earlier years, instead of playing out the string.

A few notes on all this..

1) The idea that our SOP is trading our best youngsters when they are still young is overblown.

2) Discounting the four most recent trades, the overall return on the others was insane. All those trades, excepting Victor, strengthened the organization. The other t
four are TBD, but it is unlikely that all of Franmil, Allen, Moss, Naylor, Arias, Quantrill, Clase, Rosario, Gimenez, Wolf, and Greene will bust. IMO the odds are far better that we will end up with several long term productive players, some starting this season.




3) Nobody can reasonably think that the Indians, no matter who the owner was, could pay the kind of money to have retained any of those players in their prime.

4) History shows us that we should have traded more of our youngsters, rather than extending them well into their 30s.

5) While we fans might complain about these types of trades, the results have shown our FO to be geniuses.

6) Showing that it is impossible to satisfy fans, there are multiple posts in multiple threads almost demanding that the FO trade JRam, Biebs, or Plesac...or all three...right now.
Absolutely spot on. This approach will continue to be the Indians modus operandi as long as the team is in Cleveland unless it is purchased by a billionaire who just wants to win a World Series regardless of the financial hit.

The organization is in a constant race to develop their talented young players as quickly as possible so they can get as many years of big league production out of them as possible before they are no longer affordable. That's why I think the most important people in the organization, besides the scouts, are the minor league hitting and pitching instructors.

Sometimes they can squeeze out a couple of extra years of high level production by signing them to extensions early, as in the case of Jose Ramirez and Carlos Carrasco.

In Carrasco's case he had a heart condition and four kids so he was willing to give up a couple years of free agency for more money now. Even in his 20's he wasn't sure when his career could suddenly and unexpectedly end. I'm not sure why Hosey was willing to sign the contract he did, but it's the most team friendly contract in baseball at the moment.

I'm hoping the Indians can get a couple more years out of Bieber like they did with Hosey and CC. Sounds like he's open to it.

It will be fun the next few years watching the young talent grow. We will get more Klubers and Hoseys and Brantleys and we will surely get more teasers like Naquin and Chisenhall, who flashed briefly but could never get over the hump. The fun part is seeing who will fall into which group.
 

Gson

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...and the truth is clear... trading one of the veteran players a year too soon or when they are at the high point of their value is vastly superior to trading him a year too late..
 

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