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Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

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Well, obviously I believe what I’m saying is right or else I wouldn’t be saying it :chuckle:

We’re just here stating opinions (which I even put in my post).
I guess I was stating we have some common ground even if we don't agree fully. You think they'll contend as is. I don't think there's a chance in hell if they don't add another bat or 2. What are your thoughts on that possibility? Is there someone out there that could be realistically obtained in your "opinion"?
 
So today Tito said he was going to keep Nolan Jones at 3B for now in spring training. Read into that what you will.
Kinda sucks that our best hitting prospect is finding it difficult to establish a home defensively. I think he's really a 1B, but that would mean that none of Bradley, Bauers, or even Naylor would be options there when Jones is ready. It's kinda f'd up really.
 
Kinda sucks that our best hitting prospect is finding it difficult to establish a home defensively. I think he's really a 1B, but that would mean that none of Bradley, Bauers, or even Naylor would be options there when Jones is ready. It's kinda f'd up really.
I think you just bring him up as a bat this year and let him platoon LF, 1B, 3B, DH & PH when needed.
 
The Indians have been one of the best run franchises in all of sports for years and have managed to consistently put an entertaining product on the field for almost 30 years now. Current FO is working against challenges Hart did not, so their work is even more impressive.

With that being said, I trust they will do the right thing when they are unable to re-sign Jose and trade him for a solid return as they have been doing for years now.

I don’t think anyone should be surprised or broken-hearted when that happens.
 
The Indians have been one of the best run franchises in all of sports for years and have managed to consistently put an entertaining product on the field for almost 30 years now. Current FO is working against challenges Hart did not, so their work is even more impressive.

With that being said, I trust they will do the right thing when they are unable to re-sign Jose and trade him for a solid return as they have been doing for years now.

I don’t think anyone should be surprised or broken-hearted when that happens.
Everything you said is true, and I don't anticipate being broken-hearted. I haven't been broken-hearted since Sam McDowell was traded for Gaylord Perry. But then it became the first time I saw an Indians trade work out. After Tommy John, Sonny Siebert, Graig Nettles, Chris Chambiss, I didn't think it was possible.

Now, I find I routinely trust in the trades AND their timing, as I have seen few that were ill-conceived when they happened (the Yandy Diaz trade annoyed me and the Ubaldo Jimenez trade incensed me, but other than that, I've been much more upset by the forays into free agency, with most anything substantial having been disasters.)

I'm confident this current team will surprise (to some) and the Ramirez talk will soon subside.

As for Nolan Jones, his positioning will work out. No team is in serious difficulty when it has an abundance of reasonable options, and I see no reason to rush Jones to the majors anyway until we've had a chance to sort out what we have at the major league level AND Jones proves he can hit AAA pitching as well as Daniel Johnson has. DJ's bat vs. RHP in AAA (.335/.391/.540/.931) combined with Luplow's major league line vs. RHP (.982 OPS) sure sounds like the makings of a big bat in RF to me. Good defense too.

Jones may want to start working with a first baseman's mitt, and Naylor may need to keep his OF glove oiled and ready for LF in 2022, who knows.
 
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I guess I was stating we have some common ground even if we don't agree fully. You think they'll contend as is. I don't think there's a chance in hell if they don't add another bat or 2. What are your thoughts on that possibility? Is there someone out there that could be realistically obtained in your "opinion"?
Honestly haven’t had time to look at much of anything.

I just know that I think the lineup looks deeper than it did last year with far fewer holes, and that we need to give either Bradley or Bauers a crack at some point. I have faith that one of them will be able to provide league average production.
 
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In the past 4 seasons: he's won 3 silver sluggers, been an All Star 3 times*, and placed in the Top 3 of the AL MVP 3 times. He's in the prime of his career making $35m in his age 28, 29, and 30 seasons

If you trade him, it needs to be for a package that surpasses what the White Sox got in return for Chris Sale

*Would've been in 2020 had there been a game

And herein lies the rub.

The Sale trade was generally viewed as a huge get for the White Sox....while Boston got their man in Sale.

Did Chicago get a huge, difference making return? Hardly.

Two of the prospects were busts. Kopech, four years later, finally got a cup of coffee last year, and is now headed for the pen.

Moncada is the only positive addition to Chicago...and he didn't do much until 2019.

Overall combined, the return for Sale has been worth 10.3 fWAR.

Meanwhile, over in Boston, Sale put up three years of 17.4 fWAR, been an all star twice, and received both CY and MVP votes twice.

Four years later there is no way to label this a good deal for Chicago.

You can make a case that down the road this becomes a good deal for the Chisox, but if we are talking about five years from now in Cleveland, who gives a rats a**?

In fact, we should be MAKING the same kind of trade that Boston made.

Get guaranteed major production NOW for the maybe of the future.

I would be thrilled to make that kind of trade, even if one of the prospects we trade becomes Moncada three years from now. I will trade 10 WAR over four years for 17 WAR every freaking year.

Moncada was a concensus top 5 prospect. Kopech was ranked as high as 16, but generally lower.

Only three teams have a package similar today.

SD has Gore and CJ Abrams.
Detroit have Torkelson and Mize.
Seattle has Kelenic and Julio Rodriguez.

But for Jose we would need more...and no team has both the need and the realistic prospect capital to acquire Jose.

****************

Some folks seem to want to shrug off our 40 man situation. Its far worse than just losing a Zimmer or a Chang.

After all the moves that will be needed to made for pitchers ( weve used less than 27 only twice since Tito arrived, not counting 2020), those kind of easy cuts will be more than used up. We are gonna lose some really good prospects, if we don't cash in some of our prospect capital.

Trading Jose would make things exponentially worse.
 
I guess I was stating we have some common ground even if we don't agree fully. You think they'll contend as is. I don't think there's a chance in hell if they don't add another bat or 2. What are your thoughts on that possibility? Is there someone out there that could be realistically obtained in your "opinion"?

How on earth did we contend last year without another bat or two?
 
Moncada is the only positive addition to Chicago...and he didn't do much until 2019.

Overall combined, the return for Sale has been worth 10.3 fWAR.

Meanwhile, over in Boston, Sale put up three years of 17.4 fWAR, been an all star twice, and received both CY and MVP votes twice.

Four years later there is no way to label this a good deal for Chicago.

You can make a case that down the road this becomes a good deal for the Chisox, but if we are talking about five years from now in Cleveland, who gives a rats a**?

In fact, we should be MAKING the same kind of trade that Boston made.

Get guaranteed major production NOW for the maybe of the future.

Moncada put up a 5.6 WAR season in his age 24 season over 132 games. You may see 3 prior seasons on his Fangraphs page but it's truly only about 1-1/2 seasons worth of games. I think it's fair to say that season may be a bit of an outlier going forward with a BABIP over .400 but I think he's certainly capable of being a 4 win player year over year going forward. He'll turn 26 in a few months and is locked in through his prime. I think getting a player like that- if he can produce- is a win especially when the alternative was Sale dominating on a terrible, rebuilding White Sox team

If this were 2016-2018 I'd be on board of mortgaging top prospects to get an elite player- which we did with the Miller and Hand trade- in efforts to push us over the edge. But it's crazy and irresponsible to make a trade like that a month after trading Lindor and Carrasco. This current roster has way too many unknowns and you're advocating for pushing the chips in when your hand is very average.

And please spare me any talk of Sheffield, Frazier, Mejia, etc. not panning out.
 
Because they did? Or....?

Because it's hardly relevant.

Can't remember who it was, but someone on here posted that Frazier and Zimmer were higher regarded prospects than Nolan Jones. And because they didn't/haven't panned out, that Nolan Jones likely won't either and that we should trade him for proven ML talent. It's false equivalence nonsense to think like that.
 
It's false equivalence nonsense to think like that.
Well, actually there is a modicum of equivalence. We're talking heralded prospects after all, and very high draft picks.

Probably the correct thing to say is the past is not prologue. There remains a lot of risk with Nolan Jones, especially whether he can ever become an everyday player. Right now he looks like a left-handed hitting Jordan Luplow, and since he's on the more worthwhile side of the platoon, he'd be much more valuable than Luplow. Some analyst said his upside is Adam Dunn, and he said it approvingly. I know that would be valuable, but for whatever reason, 17.9 bWAR over 14 major league seasons just doesn't excite me all that much.

But lord knows we can use a bit o' Adam Dunn right now.
 
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So, the concensus seems to be that we should trade the now for four or five years from now?

Moncado is the example of everything going right?

The service time doesn't matter. It was three years until Chicago got anything out of him.

We want to wait three years for a return on Jose.

A few details on Moncado...

If he hadn't signed an extension, he'd be arby eligible next year, which means that the same people suggesting trading Jose now would also be suggesting that we trade a Moncado next year.

Over the next three years Moncado will make $5 mil MORE than Jose.

But we want to trade Jose and his contract so that we can get the next Moncado and HIS contract?
 

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