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Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

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CA/MC have made several deals over their time on the baseball side of operations.. Their approach has seldom waivered from the basic strategy that a trade is made that helps the club now as well as into the future. Moncada, in this trade (Kopech, Basabe and Diaz) had perhaps a handful of at bats at the AA level and a call up for a cup of coffee on a team that, other than a few players including Sale, was a complete non-competitor.

Would the Indians have been so bold to change their fundamental approach toward building for a championship club?. No one can say with certainty.. it flies in the face of their normal strategy..
 
And herein lies the rub.

The Sale trade was generally viewed as a huge get for the White Sox....while Boston got their man in Sale.

Did Chicago get a huge, difference making return? Hardly.

Two of the prospects were busts. Kopech, four years later, finally got a cup of coffee last year, and is now headed for the pen.

Moncada is the only positive addition to Chicago...and he didn't do much until 2019.

Overall combined, the return for Sale has been worth 10.3 fWAR.

Meanwhile, over in Boston, Sale put up three years of 17.4 fWAR, been an all star twice, and received both CY and MVP votes twice.

Four years later there is no way to label this a good deal for Chicago.

You can make a case that down the road this becomes a good deal for the Chisox, but if we are talking about five years from now in Cleveland, who gives a rats a**?

In fact, we should be MAKING the same kind of trade that Boston made.

Get guaranteed major production NOW for the maybe of the future.

I would be thrilled to make that kind of trade, even if one of the prospects we trade becomes Moncada three years from now. I will trade 10 WAR over four years for 17 WAR every freaking year.

Moncada was a concensus top 5 prospect. Kopech was ranked as high as 16, but generally lower.

Only three teams have a package similar today.

SD has Gore and CJ Abrams.
Detroit have Torkelson and Mize.
Seattle has Kelenic and Julio Rodriguez.

But for Jose we would need more...and no team has both the need and the realistic prospect capital to acquire Jose.

****************

Some folks seem to want to shrug off our 40 man situation. Its far worse than just losing a Zimmer or a Chang.

After all the moves that will be needed to made for pitchers ( weve used less than 27 only twice since Tito arrived, not counting 2020), those kind of easy cuts will be more than used up. We are gonna lose some really good prospects, if we don't cash in some of our prospect capital.

Trading Jose would make things exponentially worse.
Moncada is a damn nice 25 yr old 3B. Did you look at his 2019 numbers or did you not mention them because it doesn't fit the narrative? The 2020 season holds little credence with anyone and referring to it should be done with caution.

Kopech is a stud who had TJS in 2019 and opted out of the 2020 season. He's not a BP pitcher and I can only guess that you would state that for the same reason you didn't mention Moncada's performance. That or you have him confused with someone else. Either way I have no idea what in the hell you're talking about when you say "cup of coffee last season". Him and Giolito at the top of their rotation will be formidable. That might not happen this year, but it will happen too soon for my liking.

I'm not even concerned with Basabe and Diaz because the 2 aforementioned players are going to make the White Sox a better team this year.

Why does it have to be "one or the other"? Why can't you make astute trades to reduce payroll while adding talent and use prospects to acquire a need or 2?

There's enough roster fodder that the 40 man isn't a concern right now. Who gives a single shit if any of Bauers, Bradley, Zimmer, Chang, Hill, Morgan, Moss, Plutko, Stephan, Taylor, Mercado, or H. Ramirez are replaced on the 40 man with better personnel? That's a rhetorical question by the way. They're not heading for a 40 man roster "crunch". It's more like they're headed to the toilet to drop some turds.

Again, you don't know that trading Jose would make things "exponentially worse". The fact is you don't know, and you seem to be having a hard time realizing that. Now, clearly you don't think it would be beneficial, and you may be right about that or...............
 
There's enough roster fodder that the 40 man isn't a concern right now. Who gives a single shit if any of Bauers, Bradley, Zimmer, Chang, Hill, Morgan, Moss, Plutko, Stephan, Taylor, Mercado, or H. Ramirez are replaced on the 40 man with better personnel? That's a rhetorical question by the way. They're not heading for a 40 man roster "crunch". It's more like they're headed to the toilet to drop some turds.

Again, you don't know that trading Jose would make things "exponentially worse". The fact is you don't know, and you seem to be having a hard time realizing that. Now, clearly you don't think it would be beneficial, and you may be right about that or...............


I am going to side with Cats when it comes to the 40 man roster crunch here soon. We lost two guys in the Rule 5 this season and we added what 5 guys to the 40 man roster. 5 of our top 10 prospects have to be added to the 40 man in 22 and 3 more in our top 30, who need to be protected as well (Cantillo, Miller and Sandlin). We are planning on competing in 22, so I don't think Bo Naylor, Valera, Rocchio, Bracho are MLB ready yet at the end of the day. Freeman, Miller, Sandlin, etc should be at least close if not ready.

If we traded JRam at this current moment, we are looking at probably 5ish players in return, at least 3 are likely to be at or near MLB level, plus one-two lower prospects. A move would end up being something like JRam and maybe a prospect/minor leaguer or two for OF Waters/Pache, C Langeliers/Contreras, LHP Muller/Davidson, 3B CJ Alexander/SS Vaughn Grissom, and OF Nick Harris. (Amed to 3B could be a legit scenario defensively at least, with maybe Miller in the mix)

Add that up, could be 11 prospects in 22 that have to be added/we have to clear for by that time, plus guys who arent on our top 30 prospects, like a Cody Morris, Broom, etc who likely could make the team if given a chance.

We have a deep class of 17 and 18 who become rule 5 eligible in 22 and even deeper if we trade JRam.

We would have to make a trade or two before 22 rule 5 draft to help fill in the roster since I don't think we could do a 15 man flip of the 40 man roster.
 
I am going to side with Cats when it comes to the 40 man roster crunch here soon. We lost two guys in the Rule 5 this season and we added what 5 guys to the 40 man roster. 5 of our top 10 prospects have to be added to the 40 man in 22 and 3 more in our top 30, who need to be protected as well (Cantillo, Miller and Sandlin). We are planning on competing in 22, so I don't think Bo Naylor, Valera, Rocchio, Bracho are MLB ready yet at the end of the day. Freeman, Miller, Sandlin, etc should be at least close if not ready.

If we traded JRam at this current moment, we are looking at probably 5ish players in return, at least 3 are likely to be at or near MLB level, plus one-two lower prospects. A move would end up being something like JRam and maybe a prospect/minor leaguer or two for OF Waters/Pache, C Langeliers/Contreras, LHP Muller/Davidson, 3B CJ Alexander/SS Vaughn Grissom, and OF Nick Harris. (Amed to 3B could be a legit scenario defensively at least, with maybe Miller in the mix)

Add that up, could be 11 prospects in 22 that have to be added/we have to clear for by that time, plus guys who arent on our top 30 prospects, like a Cody Morris, Broom, etc who likely could make the team if given a chance.

We have a deep class of 17 and 18 who become rule 5 eligible in 22 and even deeper if we trade JRam.

We would have to make a trade or two before 22 rule 5 draft to help fill in the roster since I don't think we could do a 15 man flip of the 40 man roster.
This "roster crunch" is no different than any other year minus the fact that they farm system is much better/deeper than it has been in a very long time. I listed 12 guys that could easily be DFA'd and no one would give a shit. You can add Sandlin to that list too. I see no reason why anyone would waste time worrying about the 40 man roster for 22. Some players will surprise and some will disappoint. After no minor league season in 20, a lot will be revealed this year.

I don't think you're looking at "5 guys in return" for JRam. If they trade him it will be for quality, not quantity. The beauty of the idea is that MC and CA have all the leverage. They don't need to move his salary and he has 3 more seasons of control. It's either give us what we want or F off. Pretty much why I think that you have to be open to offers, but can be very selective and demanding. Quite the opposite of trading Lindor.

So make a trade or 2 before the 22 rule 5. If we don't find a place for Miller, which would be very disappointing to me, then there will certainly be many teams willing to take him for a couple of lower level prospects that don't have to be rostered. Same goes for Freeman. In fact, I like Miller better than Freeman and I would use Freeman to headline a package for an area of need. Like I said, there is enough fodder on the 40 man that it isn't a big concern for MC and CA.
 
This "roster crunch" is no different than any other year minus the fact that they farm system is much better/deeper than it has been in a very long time. I listed 12 guys that could easily be DFA'd and no one would give a shit. You can add Sandlin to that list too. I see no reason why anyone would waste time worrying about the 40 man roster for 22. Some players will surprise and some will disappoint. After no minor league season in 20, a lot will be revealed this year.

I don't think you're looking at "5 guys in return" for JRam. If they trade him it will be for quality, not quantity. The beauty of the idea is that MC and CA have all the leverage. They don't need to move his salary and he has 3 more seasons of control. It's either give us what we want or F off. Pretty much why I think that you have to be open to offers, but can be very selective and demanding. Quite the opposite of trading Lindor.

So make a trade or 2 before the 22 rule 5. If we don't find a place for Miller, which would be very disappointing to me, then there will certainly be many teams willing to take him for a couple of lower level prospects that don't have to be rostered. Same goes for Freeman. In fact, I like Miller better than Freeman and I would use Freeman to headline a package for an area of need. Like I said, there is enough fodder on the 40 man that it isn't a big concern for MC and CA.
Interested in your perspective -- What makes you like Miller over Freeman?
 
So a detractor for trading Ramirez and going younger is that we might be 3 or 4 upper level prospects...who will all likely be better than the majority of our prospects and will be in our top 10-15...that this will create some sort of roster crunch? Like wow ok.

You get a young catcher for Ramirez, then bye bye to whoever the 3rd catcher is that we have now(forgot his name). You get a young OF then bye bye to Zimmer. You get a young pitcher then bye bye to Plutko. Plus Ramirez's spot. Crunch solved.
 
Interested in your perspective -- What makes you like Miller over Freeman?
I think they are both very good bat to ball hitters as demonstrated by their overall performances thus far. After looking at numerous videos of both players this is what I like about Miller over Freeman:
1. Miller's swing looks quicker/shorter to the ball and has a better launch angle. To me it just looks more fluid/natural.
2. Miller is stronger, especially in his lower half. Miller is structurally bigger than Freeman.
3. Miller has 65 BB in 805 AB while Freeman has 41 BB in 891 AB. Freeman is younger, and that needs some consideration IMO.
4. I think Miller could actually profile at 3B when/should that need arise. He's a better hitter right now than A. Rosario and as good or better with the glove.

Please don't take this as any kind of criticism toward Freeman because nothing could be further from the truth. He's clearly one of our best prospects, but I think we're seriously overlooking the type of hitter that Miller is/will be.
 
So a detractor for trading Ramirez and going younger is that we might be 3 or 4 upper level prospects...who will all likely be better than the majority of our prospects and will be in our top 10-15...that this will create some sort of roster crunch? Like wow ok.

You get a young catcher for Ramirez, then bye bye to whoever the 3rd catcher is that we have now(forgot his name). You get a young OF then bye bye to Zimmer. You get a young pitcher then bye bye to Plutko. Plus Ramirez's spot. Crunch solved.
Yeah, I don't get how improving the roster can be a burden, but hey ya never know. I literally listed 12 players that could go bye bye and nobody would lose any sleep. There's not going to be a roster crunch IMO, and if there is then we're in a great f'n place.
 
To support that LL3, I asked Bimbo what he was hearing about Miller and this is how he replied.

"And I've talked to some of Miller's hitting coaches, including a few that work with some MLB players of note. Most of them have the same message: one of the most naturally gifted hitters they have ever worked with.

Problem with the 2 of them is neither of them are a SS at the MLB level. Wouldn't surprise me, if all 3 are at the same level, to see Freeman at 2B, Miller at 3B, and Nolan Jones in the OF in Columbus a handful of times. Think that's where those 3 end up playing at the MLB level."

My family and I love going to Clipper's games and I'll make the trip as much as possible this year. Might prove difficult with my son playing college ball and my daughter playing on a travel team, but there will be some opportunities. They should be fun to watch if those 3 are in the lineup.
 
So a detractor for trading Ramirez and going younger is that we might be 3 or 4 upper level prospects...who will all likely be better than the majority of our prospects and will be in our top 10-15...that this will create some sort of roster crunch? Like wow ok.

You get a young catcher for Ramirez, then bye bye to whoever the 3rd catcher is that we have now(forgot his name). You get a young OF then bye bye to Zimmer. You get a young pitcher then bye bye to Plutko. Plus Ramirez's spot. Crunch solved.
Crunch is NOT solved. Not even close.

Here is a listing of headliners that are 1st time eligible players for the 2021 R5 draft:
Pitchers: Rorbert Broom, Cody Morris, Nick Sandlin, Adam Scott
Infielders: Aaron Bracho, Tyler Freeman, Owen Miller, Richie Palacios, Brayan Rocchio, Jose Tena
OF: Alexfri Planez, George Valera.

Again the list is only the headliners (& I omitted some names that I am sure some people think are needing roster protection).
There are 61 players on the 1st time eligible list for CLE
 
Crunch is NOT solved. Not even close.

Here is a listing of headliners that are 1st time eligible players for the 2021 R5 draft:
Pitchers: Rorbert Broom, Cody Morris, Nick Sandlin, Adam Scott
Infielders: Aaron Bracho, Tyler Freeman, Owen Miller, Richie Palacios, Brayan Rocchio, Jose Tena
OF: Alexfri Planez, George Valera.

Again the list is only the headliners (& I omitted some names that I am sure some people think are needing roster protection).
There are 61 players on the 1st time eligible list for CLE

I get our crunch, but have to think there has to be several other teams in similar situations. Seems like a golden opportunity for a rebuilding team to capitalize on. Not sure exactly how, as having several prospects on the 40 man who are still a level or 2 away from the show can't be ideal but one might be able to argue prospect value is rather low/extremely low at them moment. Once we get a few months of games under our belts, hopefully some of these decisions resolve themselves, but I imagine one or more of our guys are going to complicate the picture.

If we can convert a couple to a few of these types into a surefire ML starter (via trade) who fits in finically, you definitely consider that. Guys like Valera, Palacios and Rocchio could be ideal "buy low" candidates for some team(s).
 
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I get our crunch, but have to think there has to be several other teams in similar situations. Seems like a golden opportunity for a rebuilding team to capitalize on. Not sure exactly how, as having several prospects on the 40 man who are still a level or 2 away from the show can't be ideal but one might be able to argue prospect value is rather low/extremely low at them moment. Once we get a few months of games under our belts, hopefully some of these decisions resolve themselves, but I imagine one or more of our guys are going to complicate the picture.

If we can convert a couple to a few of these types into a surefire ML starter (via trade) who fits in finically, you definitely consider that. Guys like Valera, Palacios and Rocchio could be ideal "buy low" candidates for some team(s).
Taking a look at the places in the Indians minor league system.. and it's clear what is missing.. Upside OF'er at all levels and catching.. There are several teams that have excesses in these areas...

example: SF Giants: They're not contending this or next year.. maybe not the year after that.. but they have a pair of what I'll refer as "catching talent": Joey Bart and Patrick Bailey (I think his first name is patrick).. Bailey is the Ohio State kid.. probably and Indians fan growing up.. a switch hitter with plenty of present and more future power..etc.. but what really shines with him.. is his ability to catch.. block balls.. excellent feet and strong accurate arm.. Everything the CLEFO covets in catching talent.. He has a bonus in that he's a 2020 draftee.. so he needs no 40 man roster protection for four plus years.. not that it's going to take that long before he's ML ready..

This is a target the Indians should be able to acquire knowing the SF Giants could use two or three 2B/3B upside prospects..

The Jays are in the same spot w/r to catching talent.. there are two other teams with catching talent excess..

A deal "like" this could be/should be made.. Additionally, a catcher already at the ML level should also be looked at.. there are about sixteen of those..

Thoughts?>.
 
I get our crunch, but have to think there has to be several other teams in similar situations. Seems like a golden opportunity for a rebuilding team to capitalize on. Not sure exactly how, as having several prospects on the 40 man who are still a level or 2 away from the show can't be ideal but one might be able to argue prospect value is rather low/extremely low at them moment. Once we get a few months of games under our belts, hopefully some of these decisions resolve themselves, but I imagine one or more of our guys are going to complicate the picture.

If we can convert a couple to a few of these types into a surefire ML starter (via trade) who fits in finically, you definitely consider that. Guys like Valera, Palacios and Rocchio could be ideal "buy low" candidates for some team(s).
Why would anyone consider trading George Valera, our best outfield prospect, when our outfield is such an organizational weakness? That one makes no sense to me.
 
Crunch is NOT solved. Not even close.

Here is a listing of headliners that are 1st time eligible players for the 2021 R5 draft:
Pitchers: Rorbert Broom, Cody Morris, Nick Sandlin, Adam Scott
Infielders: Aaron Bracho, Tyler Freeman, Owen Miller, Richie Palacios, Brayan Rocchio, Jose Tena
OF: Alexfri Planez, George Valera.

Again the list is only the headliners (& I omitted some names that I am sure some people think are needing roster protection).
There are 61 players on the 1st time eligible list for CLE

Those players have to be tended to eventually one way on another. If it's that serious and can't be resolved (I doubt it) then look to trade a prospect for a younger prospect.

But once again if Langeliers, Pache, Muller, Riley as an example replace our 3rd catcher, Zimmer, Plutko plus Ramirez where is the issue? Are you kidding, these are MLB ready prospects with top 100 potential and we worried about some hopefuls with way less talent like Jose Tena and Robert Broom??

Again, a catcher, OF and pitcher. Do we not ALWAYS have atleast one catcher on the roster that flat out sucks every year? Do we not ALWAYS have one outfielder on the roster that flat out sucks every year? Do we not ALWAYS have one pitcher who flat out sucks on the roster every year? The answers are yes, yes and yes. These are the guys to be replaced. Even after that, there will be more guys that suck.

The idea behind talent acquistion is to hopefully have less players that suck not worry about having too many good players.
 
btw.. those other names...mentioned above..

Drew Romo with the Rockies.. they have an incredible upside OF that would be a sweet acquisition.. perhaps a five for two type deal..

Jackson Miller with the Reds.. Tyler Stephenson would be a better choice.. but that might not be possible.. (never say never)..

Tyler Soderstram with the A's.. solidly the best offensive catcher that could possibly be acquired.. but it would cost..

There are quite a few guys out there.. and Bo Naylor, in house.. catching is like pitching.. when you think you have enough.. you go out and get more.. These guys would be the kind of "more" the tribe needs for the next wave...

Thoughts?..
 

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