Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

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Alabuckeye

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Speaking of that as an aside.....has anyone done a retrospective piece on the value of that trade viewed 4 years later? Andrew Miller that is.
 

AZ_

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Speaking of that as an aside.....has anyone done a retrospective piece on the value of that trade viewed 4 years later? Andrew Miller that is.

Clint Frazier is going to have some people feeling pretty bad this year, IMO.

Could finally be his year to get a full time gig.
 

WhoAzcue

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Speaking of that as an aside.....has anyone done a retrospective piece on the value of that trade viewed 4 years later? Andrew Miller that is.
As AZ said, it appears that Clint Frazier is going to finally play regularly for the Yankees this year, Justus Sheffield is in the Mariners rotation, JP Feyereisen looks like he's found a place in the Brewers pen, and Ben Heller has been plagued with arm injuries and was finally let go by the Yankees but signed with Arizona (I think) on minor league deal.

We got what, five good months out of Andrew Miller? Famous homers given up to David Ross in WS game seven and Greg Bird in ALDS game three...we all judge things differently, I suppose, but it's pretty certain this trade will be moving against CLE from here on out. But then, I'm not the sort who trades Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman or John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander or Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell. Late season deals are where the Indians take advantage of teams, not get taken advantage of. I understood why we did it at the time, and was OK with it, assuming we were going to get the good Andrew Miller for 2 years plus and he was going to be the difference in postseason. We didn't and he wasn't. An understandable, worthwhile gamble though, not one that leaves me reluctant to try again on a similar deal, although I will admit a reluctance to value relievers that highly.
 
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Kevalier

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Clint Frazier is going to have some people feeling pretty bad this year, IMO.

Could finally be his year to get a full time gig.

Honestly, I still think trading him for Miller was still worth it. We netted an AL pennant out of it, as I really don't think we get to Game 7 of the World Series without Andrew Miller being the Angel of Death throughout the 2016 postseason.
 

MattyFos.

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Your incredibly well articulated and lengthy post can be distilled down into this divide between fans. On one side are those who spit on that sort of view; on the other side are those who wholeheartedly embrace that view. Thank you for taking the time to express yours, because we need to have a clear understanding of this perspective.

I don't share any of it.

Over the last thirty years the Cleveland Indians could have easily won six World Series (at least) and won none. I'm not going to cry about that, or indict whatever owners or front office personnel did to "prevent" those championships. The truth is, between the lines we had what it took to win it all, and...either the bouncing ball didn't bounce in our direction, or the players didn't perform when it was all within their grasp.

The idea that through some incredible force of human resolve, we could have MADE IT HAPPEN somehow, GUARANTEED it would happen, is human folly or hubris of the highest order. The Dodgers through sheer force of resources have been trying for 30 years and finally got lucky this year. Yes, lucky. They could have easily been dismissed by the Braves..and even by the plucky Rays.

The Braves of the 90s's began a string of 14 division titles in 15 years, and in many of those years, MANY of them, they were the best team in the game. They only won once. Fans who disparage what the Indians have done look at the Braves as failures, which makes us worse I guess, since we were the only team they didn't fail against.

I guess if you believe that "middling winning" (whatever that is) is worthless, you must regard the Marlins as a highly successful franchise, what with their two Worlds Championships and scores of last place finishes. A franchise to be proud of, not like the crummy seventh best all-time in the major leagues, 3rd best only behind big market NYY and BOS in AL history.

I don't really know where the fan self-entitlement comes from, or the idea that man controls everything through sheer force of will, but that's not the way baseball works. If ever there's a team sport that is humbling, it's baseball. I look back on the last 30 years and the present circumstances and think, "Damn, this has been fun. Let's go!" You look back at the last 30 years and where stand today and you think, "Damn, how frustrating. And it's going to be more of the same with this approach to mediocrity."

Maybe it's not quite the 'ol half glass full, half glass empty thing, but man, it sure sounds like it. Go ahead, fit me with those homer rose-colored shades and toss me that Dolan burner, I'm ready for 2021 because we're in it, baby! And nothing is guaranteed, just the way I like it. I don't need to be prohibitive favorites to enjoy my baseball. David against Goliath was always my favorite story anyway.
Amen brother
 

Anglefan

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As AZ said, it appears that Clint Frazier is going to finally play regularly for the Yankees this year, Justus Sheffield is in the Mariners rotation, JP Feyereisen looks like he's found a place in the Brewers pen, and Ben Heller has been plagued with arm injuries and was finally let go by the Yankees but signed with Arizona (I think) on minor league deal.

We got what, five good months out of Andrew Miller? Famous homers given up to David Ross in WS game seven and Greg Bird in ALDS game three...we all judge things differently, I suppose, but it's pretty certain this trade will be moving against CLE from here on out. But then, I'm not the sort who trades Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman or John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander or Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell. Late season deals are where the Indians take advantage of teams, not get taken advantage of. I understood why we did it at the time, and was OK with it, assuming we were going to get the good Andrew Miller for 2 years plus and he was going to be the difference in postseason. We didn't and he wasn't. An understandable, worthwhile gamble though, not one that leaves me reluctant to try again on a similar deal, although I will admit a reluctance to value relievers that highly.
Huh? We don't make the World Series without Andrew Miller. I feel like I'm living in a completely different world from what your post thinks reality is.
 

Criznit

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Andrew Miller was an EXCELLENT pick up. It wasn't cheap and honestly surprised the Yankees (or anybody) haven't gotten more value out of the trade... For now... Frazier looks to getting a legit shot finally, Sheffield may still have some sparkle and Heller has had bad luck. Miller's pick up is akin to the Brewers acquisition of our own CC Sabathia and it took a few years for us to generate any real return from that one.

I make the trade 100 out of 100 times in hindsight.
 
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Gson

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An interesting twist from JoshL10 regarding the trade of Jose Ramirez

Braves get: Jose Ramirez

Indians get: Christian Pache CF-OF, Brandon Shewmake SS/3B, Shea Langeliers C, and Michael Harris OF

This deal is overwhelmingly in the Indians favor.. An overpay of more than $ 20MM. Pache has all the skills/tools to be a ML CF'er for the next 10 years.. as a 60FV prospect, this is as good of a prospect as any the Indians can hope to get. Langeliers is a solid catching prospect that should be ready to go by 2022. Shewmake, althought a SS, is 6'4" 200 pounds, has a huge Baseball IQ.. This kid can play anywhere on the diamond.. with his hands and arm as a SS, moving to 3B could be a solid move. His best tool.. is hitting.. Michael Harris is like Valera in the Indians system with a better arm.. This is the kind of athlete the Indians acquired from the Mets in Isaiah Greene. Having too many of these kinds of guys is a good thing..

Clearly, someone is reading the tea leaves and know that if Jose is to be moved, it takes an overwhelming offer.. An immediate CF'er and three other prospects, two who don't need to be rostered.. is the kind of deal the CLEFO should be paying attention to..
 

AZ_

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Honestly, I still think trading him for Miller was still worth it. We netted an AL pennant out of it, as I really don't think we get to Game 7 of the World Series without Andrew Miller being the Angel of Death throughout the 2016 postseason.

Oh hell yeah.

100% worth it.

But that ginger can really smash.
 

LL3

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Clint Frazier is going to have some people feeling pretty bad this year, IMO.

Could finally be his year to get a full time gig.
If you mean feel bad about the Miller trade, then no, not at all. I know a few have downplayed Frazier lately - so if it is them who should feel badly, well then - absolutely!:chuckle:
I would have loved to have traded for Frazier last season, as I still think he has a bright future ahead.
 
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WhoAzcue

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Thank you. 5 months? He was dominant the entire next season.
He only pitched 18 innings after the All Star break and nagging injuries meant he was never again quite as consistently dominant as he was before the break that year. When he was feeling good he could still summon the old magic, but he had set a pretty high bar. So yeah, I didn't mean to say he wasn't still good, just that the availability of peak Miller wasn't as long a tenure as one might remember...six months then?
 

WhoAzcue

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Huh? We don't make the World Series without Andrew Miller. I feel like I'm living in a completely different world from what your post thinks reality is.
No listen, I understand the narrative, but giving him ALL the credit for being the difference in 2016 given Kluber, Tomlin, Allen and others is a bit much for me and would be as unfair as laying the blame on him for costing the better Indians team a chance in 2017...after all, the homer he surrendered completely reversed the momentum of that series. Was he a critical component in the 2016 postseason? Sure. But saying he's the reason we made the World Series is a bit much since we simply don't know how things would have played out without him. His absence surely would have made it tougher, but Francona rode him so hard that he was pretty much gassed by the time we got to the Cubs (negative WPA during the Series) as many of our guys were. It was a pretty heroic ride for many of our guys, including Miller.
 

CDAV45

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No regrets when we made the trade because Miller was exactly the type of work horse that allowed this team to drudge through all the SP injuries in 2016. The only thing that sparks this conversation is the fact that Frazier is exactly what this team lacks now. Thing is, we're better suited now then we were then to use prospect capital to improve this team.
 

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