Thoughts on trading Jose Ramirez

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petes999

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No regrets when we made the trade because Miller was exactly the type of work horse that allowed this team to drudge through all the SP injuries in 2016. The only thing that sparks this conversation is the fact that Frazier is exactly what this team lacks now. Thing is, we're better suited now then we were then to use prospect capital to improve this team.

When they announced Miller trade, I thought it was a slight over pay but understood why they did it (and was for it) when LuCroy was announced. I was in for all in because our odds for WS went from 20-1 at BOY to 14-1 MOY and this was going to put us in thick of things. Like poker, you know when to go all in (even though there are no sure things like LuCroy). I just don’t see it (yet) this year with 38-1 odds and the number of holes we have. I would be more encouraged if I saw Jones, A Rosario and Miller in OF in ST to get their bats in lineup wherever it maybe. Yet, Indians aren’t showing signs of rushing guys to get seasoned this year for playoff run.

And, in 2016, we actually had more prospects at higher end then now. We had 2 top-30 guys in Frazier and Zimmer. We also had more top-100 guys in Aiken (yes right after draft), McK, Sheffield, Mejia and Bradley (7 guys). With another year of scouting and full year of play, we will get 5-7 guys by year end/next year into consensus top-100. However, what we are missing is $$$ to buy another Miller (even 3rd year guy who will cost more next year). The pre-arb guy with 4 or more years of control will take more capital and be harder to complete.

I bash the Bauer trade due to not going all in. Yet, they supposedly had a 2nd trade per Jeff E where it fell apart at last minute (they were pulling AA player(s) in to talk supposedly) which may have changed my opinion (we didn’t have enough hitting). I just see same thing now and see 23/24 as better chance to build around ... even if it means losing Bieber for just a comp pick.
 

CDAV45

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When they announced Miller trade, I thought it was a slight over pay but understood why they did it (and was for it) when LuCroy was announced. I was in for all in because our odds for WS went from 20-1 at BOY to 14-1 MOY and this was going to put us in thick of things. Like poker, you know when to go all in (even though there are no sure things like LuCroy). I just don’t see it (yet) this year with 38-1 odds and the number of holes we have. I would be more encouraged if I saw Jones, A Rosario and Miller in OF in ST to get their bats in lineup wherever it maybe. Yet, Indians aren’t showing signs of rushing guys to get seasoned this year for playoff run.

And, in 2016, we actually had more prospects at higher end then now. We had 2 top-30 guys in Frazier and Zimmer. We also had more top-100 guys in Aiken (yes right after draft), McK, Sheffield, Mejia and Bradley (7 guys). With another year of scouting and full year of play, we will get 5-7 guys by year end/next year into consensus top-100. However, what we are missing is $$$ to buy another Miller (even 3rd year guy who will cost more next year). The pre-arb guy with 4 or more years of control will take more capital and be harder to complete.

I bash the Bauer trade due to not going all in. Yet, they supposedly had a 2nd trade per Jeff E where it fell apart at last minute (they were pulling AA player(s) in to talk supposedly) which may have changed my opinion (we didn’t have enough hitting). I just see same thing now and see 23/24 as better chance to build around ... even if it means losing Bieber for just a comp pick.
The Miller trade was an overpay, but he is exactly what this team needed at the time.

In hindsight, we all would like to shake LuCroy's hand and thank him personally.

I would also be more excited if Jones and Miller were announced for the opening day roster, but that's not likely to happen.

I have no idea what the budget is allowed to be. I find it difficult to believe that there isn't a deal out there for a young, inexpensive OF bat. I'd gladly overpay again like we did with Miller.

Regardless of another trade failing, I liked the Bauer trade. It landed us a couple of good hitters in Puig and Reyes, along with 2 decent LHP in Allen and Moss. I'd take Puig in RF right now.
 
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Gson

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and yet another Jose Ramirez trade..

Blue Jays get Josh Naylor 1B/OF, Cal Quantrill Jr. RHSP and Jose Ramirez 3B
Indians get Jordan Groshans SS/3B, Lourdes Gurriel Jr LF/OF, Alejandro Kirk C and Simeon Woods-Richardson RHSP

This represents a strong over pay by the Blue Jays, $ 9.5 MM in future Value.

The suggestion to remove both Kirk and Quantrill from the deal entirely with the Jays kicking back another C prospect, Gabriel Moreno. A slightly larger over pay exists $ 10.4 MM.. In as much as the best player in the deal by a WIDE margin is going to the Jays thereby bringing greater certainty of performance.. this isn't unusual..
 

hockeyjohn

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and yet another Jose Ramirez trade..

Blue Jays get Josh Naylor 1B/OF, Cal Quantrill Jr. RHSP and Jose Ramirez 3B
Indians get Jordan Groshans SS/3B, Lourdes Gurriel Jr LF/OF, Alejandro Kirk C and Simeon Woods-Richardson RHSP

This represents a strong over pay by the Blue Jays, $ 9.5 MM in future Value.

The suggestion to remove both Kirk and Quantrill from the deal entirely with the Jays kicking back another C prospect, Gabriel Moreno. A slightly larger over pay exists $ 10.4 MM.. In as much as the best player in the deal by a WIDE margin is going to the Jays thereby bringing greater certainty of performance.. this isn't unusual..

Apparently you will not be satisfied until the Indians trade Jose Ramirez. I really hope that you remain unsatisfied. You realize that everyone on here can read Baseball Trade Values for themselves.
 

Gson

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Apparently you will not be satisfied until the Indians trade Jose Ramirez. I really hope that you remain unsatisfied. You realize that everyone on here can read Baseball Trade Values for themselves.
Whether I am satisfied or not is not the issue.. the postings of trades potentials for Jose Ramirez or any other Indians player on a trade Jose Ramirez trade thread belong here.. you are welcome to continuous repeat that you wouldn't make that trade under the wrong assumption that somehow satisfaction is gleened from the posting.. and everyone can read that too......
 

sportscoach

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and yet another Jose Ramirez trade..

Blue Jays get Josh Naylor 1B/OF, Cal Quantrill Jr. RHSP and Jose Ramirez 3B
Indians get Jordan Groshans SS/3B, Lourdes Gurriel Jr LF/OF, Alejandro Kirk C and Simeon Woods-Richardson RHSP

This represents a strong over pay by the Blue Jays, $ 9.5 MM in future Value.

The suggestion to remove both Kirk and Quantrill from the deal entirely with the Jays kicking back another C prospect, Gabriel Moreno. A slightly larger over pay exists $ 10.4 MM.. In as much as the best player in the deal by a WIDE margin is going to the Jays thereby bringing greater certainty of performance.. this isn't unusual..

That would be a dumb trade to do from the Indians part especially since we are trying to compete. Quantril at worst case scenario will be like a Zach McAllister, starter that has to prove he can stay starting, if he cannot then he should be solid out of the pen. Naylor, many believe will get better as he ages and matures. That wouldnt be worth it for the Indians at all, if anything it would actually hurt them in my mind, in both short and long run.
 

Gson

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That would be a dumb trade to do from the Indians part especially since we are trying to compete. Quantril at worst case scenario will be like a Zach McAllister, starter that has to prove he can stay starting, if he cannot then he should be solid out of the pen. Naylor, many believe will get better as he ages and matures. That wouldnt be worth it for the Indians at all, if anything it would actually hurt them in my mind, in both short and long run.
Agree.. the addition of Quantill hurts the Indians both now and into the future. The exclusion of Quantill with the corresponding inclusionof Moreno makes more sense. What this deal comes down to is two parts..

Part One: Groshans for Naylor as one half
Part Two: Lourdes Gurriel Jr, Gabriel Moreno and Simeon Woods-Richardson for Jose Ramirez

One might say that the first part of the deal is slam dunk for the Indians.. while the second part is a toss up.. or, the Jays win the deal immediately, but the Tribe wins in the long run.. Either way.. it's interesting so long as Quantrill is omitted from the deal..
 

CDAV45

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and yet another Jose Ramirez trade..

Blue Jays get Josh Naylor 1B/OF, Cal Quantrill Jr. RHSP and Jose Ramirez 3B
Indians get Jordan Groshans SS/3B, Lourdes Gurriel Jr LF/OF, Alejandro Kirk C and Simeon Woods-Richardson RHSP

This represents a strong over pay by the Blue Jays, $ 9.5 MM in future Value.

The suggestion to remove both Kirk and Quantrill from the deal entirely with the Jays kicking back another C prospect, Gabriel Moreno. A slightly larger over pay exists $ 10.4 MM.. In as much as the best player in the deal by a WIDE margin is going to the Jays thereby bringing greater certainty of performance.. this isn't unusual..
Not interested in trading Ramirez at the moment, but for the sake of conversation and a possible AS break deal I'll speak.

Quantrill is going nowhere. Kids a horse and is a much surer thing to stick in the rotation than McAllister ever was. For the record, I thought McAllister would have been a decent starter prior to his finger injury that limited his ability to spin the ball.

I'd swap Naylor for Guirriel Jr or Hernandez every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Groshans looks to be a stud in the making. I said it before and I'll say it again. When looking down the road a year or 2, having Groshans at 3B, Arias at SS, Freeman at 2B, Jones at 1B, and Miller as the UIF would by dynamic.

SWR is exactly the type of SP this organization covets.

No interest in the muffin top unless he commits to getting rid of it because there is no way there is any longevity in being a C and that frumpy.

So bottom line. If they aren't offering Groshans, Hernandez, SWR, Kloffenstein, and Merryweather then I don't want to here from them until a) this team is out of contention b) next offseason. Yes that is an overpay, but CA clearly doesn't want to move him yet so you'll have to pry him out of his kung fu grip.
 

Gson

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Not interested in trading Ramirez at the moment, but for the sake of conversation and a possible AS break deal I'll speak.

Quantrill is going nowhere. Kids a horse and is a much surer thing to stick in the rotation than McAllister ever was. For the record, I thought McAllister would have been a decent starter prior to his finger injury that limited his ability to spin the ball.

I'd swap Naylor for Guirriel Jr or Hernandez every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Groshans looks to be a stud in the making. I said it before and I'll say it again. When looking down the road a year or 2, having Groshans at 3B, Arias at SS, Freeman at 2B, Jones at 1B, and Miller as the UIF would by dynamic.

SWR is exactly the type of SP this organization covets.

No interest in the muffin top unless he commits to getting rid of it because there is no way there is any longevity in being a C and that frumpy.

So bottom line. If they aren't offering Groshans, Hernandez, SWR, Kloffenstein, and Merryweather then I don't want to here from them until a) this team is out of contention b) next offseason. Yes that is an overpay, but CA clearly doesn't want to move him yet so you'll have to pry him out of his kung fu grip.
Fair enough..

..as an aside..Merryweather as a throw in always works.. they're saying he's up to the mid/upper 90's on his FB velo.. I'm just wondering if he's at the long end of a tough journey or the start of a short great stretch.. hard to say at this point..
 
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sportscoach

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Fair enough..

..as an aside..Merryweather as a throw always works.. they're saying he's up to the mid/upper 90's on his FB velo.. I'm just wondering if he's at the long end of a tough journey or the start of a short great stretch.. hard to say at this point..

I would gladly take Merryweather honestly. I liked the way he looked in 2020. I actually went and watched the innings he pitched last season and he actually looked legit. If he doesn't start, he will impact the game from the bullpen (setup/closer stuff).
 

CDAV45

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I would gladly take Merryweather honestly. I liked the way he looked in 2020. I actually went and watched the innings he pitched last season and he actually looked legit. If he doesn't start, he will impact the game from the bullpen (setup/closer stuff).
I view Julian as strictly a BP pitcher now. His arm has always been electric and he would look fantastic in the BP with Karinchak and Clase.
 

sportscoach

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I view Julian as strictly a BP pitcher now. His arm has always been electric and he would look fantastic in the BP with Karinchak and Clase.

I think he actually will be stretched out as a starter in spring. It's possible though he gets used as a spot starter/long reliever, but with the fact their rotation isn't set, he has a chance to get one of the spots.
 

CDAV45

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I think he actually will be stretched out as a starter in spring. It's possible though he gets used as a spot starter/long reliever, but with the fact their rotation isn't set, he has a chance to get one of the spots.
He's 29 yrs old and hasn't been able to stay healthy as a SP. Why risk it when you can extract very good value from him in the BP?
 

sportscoach

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He's 29 yrs old and hasn't been able to stay healthy as a SP. Why risk it when you can extract very good value from him in the BP?

He's always been a starter and his timing of tommy john was part of the issue. Also with teams going with 6 man rotations/limiting starters innings in 21, he will be at least a multi inning guy. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to 100 innings than you may think. The blue jays also need to see what they have in him as well. Can you even name the rest of the rotation for the blue jays even though we have looked at their team all winter with the Lindor trade?
 

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