Today’s NBA is barely recognizable.

[CavsFaninNJ]

Man-to-man defense is tough with a bunch of mobile wings.

This

People ignore how it's just harder to play D when they criticize defense.

Meanwhile they are nostalgic about an era where 5'3", 134 pound Muggsy Bogues played 36 mpg and didn't get run off the court. Couldn't play that guy now on D. (Average NBA height remains unchanged since the 90s)

 

[Ohioplayer00]

This

People ignore how it's just harder to play D when they criticize defense.

Meanwhile they are nostalgic about an era where 5'3", 134 pound Muggsy Bogues played 36 mpg and didn't get run off the court. Couldn't play that guy now on D. (Average NBA height remains unchanged since the 90s)

I’m not talking about 5’3 players! I’m talking players like Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Ronnie Lee,Dennis Rodman etc.
And I never once criticized how difficult it is to play defense! My whole point is how A LOT of players in today’s game don’t even put in the effort to play D or know how to play effective defense! I lost track of the number of players (and I’m talking about the so called stars of this league) that get blown on defense because they don’t know how to get low and move their feet or consistently get beat on back door cuts because they don’t know to position themselves so they can see their man and the ball. Defensive fundamentals do not change from era to era! Offense might but not on D....

 

[CavsFaninNJ]

I’m not talking about 5’3 players! I’m talking players like Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Ronnie Lee,Dennis Rodman etc.
And I never once criticized how difficult it is to play defense! My whole point is how A LOT of players in today’s game don’t even put in the effort to play D or know how to play effective defense! I lost track of the number of players (and I’m talking about the so called stars of this league) that get blown on defense because they don’t know how to get low and move their feet or consistently get beat on back door cuts because they don’t know to position themselves so they can see their man and the ball. Defensive fundamentals do not change from era to era! Offense might but not on D....

Yeah, you are talking about the all-time greats, not the guys who had productive careers then but today would be in the G-League. That's just facts. It's not all about top twenty players. What about the rest of the league?

Plenty of guys in the 90s got beat on backdoor cuts - just by less skilled players.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

Yeah, you are talking about the all-time greats, not the guys who had productive careers then but today would be in the G-League. That's just facts. It's not all about top twenty players. What about the rest of the league?

Plenty of guys in the 90s got beat on backdoor cuts - just by less skilled players.

My man....think outside the box just a little! Of course all players get beat back door! Of course the guys in the 90s got beat back door! But not as much as today’s players! And when you’re supposed to be one of the best in the game those kind of breakdowns should be far and in between! Harden gets beat back door 3-4 times a game! And that’s not an exaggeration. I have watched a great deal of his games when he was with the Rockets and now the Nets.....and it happens with regularity.
And now you’re actually saying that “productive” players back in the day would be in the G League today?? Perhaps! But you’ve got players on NBA benches today that should be in the G League!

 

[foucault87]

Superstars have been one way and two way players in every era. For every MJ or Hakeem, you had Charles Barkley, Kemp, Clyde Drexler etc who were also garbage at defense. This is not a new thing at all.

And given the modern rules, as much as we mock Harden for his garbage D, he carries a higher offensive load than any player before him. Even Nate Archibald in that season he threw away games getting a scoring and assist title wasn't at this usage.

 

[Erbium]

while I think most people would acknowledge and agree that today’s players have better overall skillsets, and, that due to spacing and shooting capability, the court and coverage required to guard players is more difficult, I think what people are ignoring is, back in the 80’s & 90’s, you had to be a DAWG to play in the league. The players were just more competitive, more angry, and more hungry. That doesn’t mean it was “better” per se...but, that grit, and the effort that came from that competitive spirit just made the games feel Like they had more stakes. I recollect most 4th quarters in regular season games in the 80’s and 90’s being like a playoff game. Guys WANTED to win every game, and put their body on the line to do so. Nobody gave anybody anything. No lay-ups, no schedule wins. There was a level of competitiveness that doesn’t really exist in the regular season In the NBA currently. To be fair to the current players, this really started to happen in the early aughts, but, as financial incentives to sustain your career have increased, you see more and more players opting to think long term vs. winning Tuesday nights statistically meaningless game vs. Opponent X.

so, I think THAT is what those of us in the older crowd miss...no self respecting team in the 80’s-90’s would let someone score 140 on them...someone would get punched in the face, bloodied with an elbow, or taught a lesson. That toughness was its own kind of enjoyable to witness

 

[Ohioplayer00]

while I think most people would acknowledge and agree that today’s players have better overall skillsets, and, that due to spacing and shooting capability, the court and coverage required to guard players is more difficult, I think what people are ignoring is, back in the 80’s & 90’s, you had to be a DAWG to play in the league. The players were just more competitive, more angry, and more hungry. That doesn’t mean it was “better” per se...but, that grit, and the effort that came from that competitive spirit just made the games feel Like they had more stakes. I recollect most 4th quarters in regular season games in the 80’s and 90’s being like a playoff game. Guys WANTED to win every game, and put their body on the line to do so. Nobody gave anybody anything. No lay-ups, no schedule wins. There was a level of competitiveness that doesn’t really exist in the regular season In the NBA currently. To be fair to the current players, this really started to happen in the early aughts, but, as financial incentives to sustain your career have increased, you see more and more players opting to think long term vs. winning Tuesday nights statistically meaningless game vs. Opponent X.

so, I think THAT is what those of us in the older crowd miss...no self respecting team in the 80’s-90’s would let someone score 140 on them...someone would get punched in the face, bloodied with an elbow, or taught a lesson. That toughness was its own kind of enjoyable to witness

Couldn’t have said it better. As I pointed out earlier I will be the first to admit that today’s players are faster, stronger, and on a whole more athletic. But today’s athletes are, maybe the word isn’t softer, but like Eribum stated probably just not as hungry as back in the day.

 

[2 For The Brew]

The eighties were truly the golden age of defense. These kids today never saw some of the Western Conference lockdown defenses with stalwarts like Kiki Vandeweigh and Alex English. They never saw Doug Moe‘s teams focus so intensely on defense that they only averaged 127 ppg. They can’t imagine the brutal half court defenses where pace was in the hundred and teens.

I’m all for nostalgia about some of the great defenders of that era but let’s not pretend that there weren‘t a lot of players (and teams) who were less of a defensive obstacle than an orange traffic cone.

The Cavaliers did have a tradition of defense but part of the reason is we didn’t have much in the way of offensive talent for the first fifteen years the franchise existed.

 

[PIP]

while I think most people would acknowledge and agree that today’s players have better overall skillsets, and, that due to spacing and shooting capability, the court and coverage required to guard players is more difficult, I think what people are ignoring is, back in the 80’s & 90’s, you had to be a DAWG to play in the league. The players were just more competitive, more angry, and more hungry. That doesn’t mean it was “better” per se...but, that grit, and the effort that came from that competitive spirit just made the games feel Like they had more stakes. I recollect most 4th quarters in regular season games in the 80’s and 90’s being like a playoff game. Guys WANTED to win every game, and put their body on the line to do so. Nobody gave anybody anything. No lay-ups, no schedule wins. There was a level of competitiveness that doesn’t really exist in the regular season In the NBA currently. To be fair to the current players, this really started to happen in the early aughts, but, as financial incentives to sustain your career have increased, you see more and more players opting to think long term vs. winning Tuesday nights statistically meaningless game vs. Opponent X.

so, I think THAT is what those of us in the older crowd miss...no self respecting team in the 80’s-90’s would let someone score 140 on them...someone would get punched in the face, bloodied with an elbow, or taught a lesson. That toughness was its own kind of enjoyable to witness

Exactly !! Seriously it’s just so soft of a game...This just doesn’t seem like NBA caliber basketball for some reason ?

For example my favorite player in the NBA today is hands down Jimmy Butler. I love watching LeBron and Steph and KD and Kyrie and a few others— but to me Jimmy Butler reminds me of a player that could play 25 to 30 years ago...

There’s nothing fancy about his game. He’s not taking 20 3’s a night. He’s not shooting 20 FT’s a night.... But he’s a leader, he gets after it on both ends and he’s a tough/throwback style of player that is playing in the league today.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

Exactly !! Seriously it’s just so soft of a game...This just doesn’t seem like NBA caliber basketball for some reason ?

For example my favorite player in the NBA today is hands down Jimmy Butler. I love watching LeBron and Steph and KD and Kyrie and a few others— but to me Jimmy Butler reminds me of a player that could play 25 to 30 years ago...

There’s nothing fancy about his game. He’s not taking 20 3’s a night. He’s not shooting 20 FT’s a night.... But he’s a leader, he gets after it on both ends and he’s a tough/throwback style of player that is playing in the league today.

JB is one of my favorites too! I love his mid range game and how he gets into the paint and doesn’t bail the defense out with long jumpers!

 

[N7RobBob]

Even Tyrese started to wear compression shorts under his 80s-90s short shorts.

Sad day indeed!

 

[The Oi]

The eighties were truly the golden age of defense. These kids today never saw some of the Western Conference lockdown defenses with stalwarts like Kiki Vandeweigh and Alex English. They never saw Doug Moe‘s teams focus so intensely on defense that they only averaged 127 ppg. They can’t imagine the brutal half court defenses where pace was in the hundred and teens.

I’m all for nostalgia about some of the great defenders of that era but let’s not pretend that there weren‘t a lot of players (and teams) who were less of a defensive obstacle than an orange traffic cone.

The Cavaliers did have a tradition of defense but part of the reason is we didn’t have much in the way of offensive talent for the first fifteen years the franchise existed.

Look at the NBA finals scores in the 80s. When the best teams played each other, the scores looked like current day scores.

As time passes, and new generations can’t confirm the facts these things get exaggerated.

Perhaps the fouls were harder, but the scores were running the hell up.

Now mid-90s? You had finals scores in the 80s and 90s. Hand checking, half court sets centered around bigs and lets be real...nobody shot threes and flat out weaker outside shooting all contributed.

There are some big fish tales being told in here about previous generations of ball here.

That said, there is some truth to the other side of the coin as well. The foul calls have gotten to the point where Harden and Trae Young are getting Jordan level calls and most dislike that. And I think guys who watched in the 70s-90s and saw guys kicking the shit out of each other and seeming to hate each other are turned off by dudes dapping each other off and saying they’re above the game and drink wine together in the off-season. I think that turns a lot of guys off and it makes them perceive the game as softer.

Is the game softer? Are hard fouls, better defense and lower scoring better than more running, better shooting and higher scoring?

Likely a matter of taste and what your parents are yelling at you.

 

[cavsfever]

One thing has transformed the NBA game -- the THREE POINT SHOT. It has severely unbalanced the game. Literally by shooting from a few feet further out you can increase the points scored by 50%. There is no other sport where you can get such a huge bonus in scoring by doing such a simple thing.

Today's defenses are probably the best ever and defensive effort has a higher premium than ever. But the fact that people are truly using the 3 point shot means that scoring is massively inflating.

As for player's characters, etc. did people watch the bubble playoffs last year? The quality of basketball and effort there was incredibly high, and in difficult circumstances. The NBA regular season has always had effort issues, it isn't rational to exert max effort for an 82 game season in a really athletically challenging sport.

 

[cavsfever]

Sounds like a bunch of nostalgic guys are about to get together and rail about the modern nba and say no one plays D, etc etc

Let me just drop this video here that gives the full context of the rule changes and even analyzes fouls in some old Jordan vs the Knicks games. It’s very much worth the 20 minutes.


I just feel like the modern game gets too much of a bad rap. There’s a reason why the game is so exhausting that players can’t play the same minutes they did in the 90s. Didn’t AI even average over 40 minutes? Nowadays guys are running out and challenging shooters, fighting endless screens further and further from the basket. Remember when guys like Earl Boykins and Mugsy Bogues could survive in the league? Impossible nowadays, athletically.

This is a great video. The defensive effort is really on another level today and this documents it well. But one thing this also highlights is that the threshold for calling a foul has gotten far too low. There should never be a defensive foul if the offensive player initiates the contact, it drives me nuts!

 

[CavsFaninNJ]

Exactly !! Seriously it’s just so soft of a game...This just doesn’t seem like NBA caliber basketball for some reason ?

For example my favorite player in the NBA today is hands down Jimmy Butler. I love watching LeBron and Steph and KD and Kyrie and a few others— but to me Jimmy Butler reminds me of a player that could play 25 to 30 years ago...

There’s nothing fancy about his game. He’s not taking 20 3’s a night. He’s not shooting 20 FT’s a night.... But he’s a leader, he gets after it on both ends and he’s a tough/throwback style of player that is playing in the league today.

You like guys with less skill - I get it. Nothing wrong with that.

I think I'm the opposite. I was born in 86 so started watching mid to late 90s. I loved Shawn Kemp on the Sonics for the dunks, but later on my favorite individual non-Cav was Rasheed Wallace. A big who could play D, dunk, and hit jumpers. He was so much more skilled than his peers, even the good ones - Chris Webber for example. Just like I hate Ben Simmons now, I hated Larry Hughes, Darius Miles, all those guys who couldn't shoot the ball, or even handle that well. So I guess the game morphed into something that fit my taste better, because Sheed was ahead of his time.

I want to push back some on the guys being tougher and caring more. Again, some guys did. But remember Lamond Murray, Wesley Person, shit Glenn Robinson. Brian Grant. The late 90s and early 2000s were the era of guys having noticable dropoffs once they got a big contract. Plenty of starter level players were just happy to be in the league and didn't care. When we think back, we think of the guys who took every possession seriously. But in the moment there was Ricky Davis and Quentin Richardson and Tim Thomas. Rashard Lewis. I could go on.

One thing I will give the nostalgic crowd, I did like players hating each other. I loved the Kings and Lakers rivalry, because those guys really hated the other team. Cavs Warriors, especially pre-KD, was the only thing I've seen recently that approaches that level - but it's not even close because Lebron is a nice guy. I miss when guys genuinely were not friends off the court.