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Today’s NBA is barely recognizable.

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Yeah, you are talking about the all-time greats, not the guys who had productive careers then but today would be in the G-League. That's just facts. It's not all about top twenty players. What about the rest of the league?

Plenty of guys in the 90s got beat on backdoor cuts - just by less skilled players.
I don't think you are arguing 80s vs today, it sounds like 90s, but I'll just say this got the general argument: you give the athletes of the 70s, 80s, and earlier access to modern training modalities from a young age, modern steroids, and far less cocaine and they would fit right in the modern game and keep up. Even the 'meatballs'. To me, the real argument is whether the game today is more or less aesthetically pleasing than back then. I think both have strong and weak points, but give me today.
 
This is a great video. The defensive effort is really on another level today and this documents it well. But one thing this also highlights is that the threshold for calling a foul has gotten far too low. There should never be a defensive foul if the offensive player initiates the contact, it drives me nuts!
JxmyHighroller is by far my favorite basketball YouTuber, and this is my favorite video from him.
 
This is a great video. The defensive effort is really on another level today and this documents it well. But one thing this also highlights is that the threshold for calling a foul has gotten far too low. There should never be a defensive foul if the offensive player initiates the contact, it drives me nuts!
Excellent video! You and I have gone back and forth on this “era” topic but this video does make me rethink my opinions that I voiced in recent posts. But one thing I stand steadfast on is my opinion that players in today’s NBA (except for a handful) do not put forth the effort on defense or lack the fundamentals of good defense. One thing that video showed consistently was how close defensive players stay up on their man. They were always up in their man’s jersey. Not so today. And I have to disagree with your comments about how much today’s players have to fight through more screens and run out to challenge three point shooters because the league as a whole is terrible in defending the three point line. And big men today (as every Cavs fan has complained about) really don’t set strong hard picks anymore. Everybody here talks about Dre’s “weak” picks! But the Cavs haven’t had a big man that knew how to set a strong pick since Varejo. Watch Embid, AD, or KAT....their picks aren’t solid either because they are more of “slip” picks so they can pop out for a jump shot or a three point look. But again great video and it has made me rethink a lot of things I said. The only I ask you to do is be objective....watch Harden, Curry, Tre Young, etc.....they’re defense and effort on D is weak. I know I’m only mentioning the superstars but I do so because they are the ones getting paid the big $$$ to be leaders on their teams and shouldn’t just be on the offensive end!
 
Thanks for sharing the video of two of most finesse teams in the 80s. Try finding some of the Bulls, Pistons, and Jazz.
Always a qualifier with you guys lol. Most nights you didn't play the Bulls, Pistons, or Jazz.
 
You like guys with less skill - I get it. Nothing wrong with that.

I think I'm the opposite. I was born in 86 so started watching mid to late 90s. I loved Shawn Kemp on the Sonics for the dunks, but later on my favorite individual non-Cav was Rasheed Wallace. A big who could play D, dunk, and hit jumpers. He was so much more skilled than his peers, even the good ones - Chris Webber for example. Just like I hate Ben Simmons now, I hated Larry Hughes, Darius Miles, all those guys who couldn't shoot the ball, or even handle that well. So I guess the game morphed into something that fit my taste better, because Sheed was ahead of his time.

I want to push back some on the guys being tougher and caring more. Again, some guys did. But remember Lamond Murray, Wesley Person, shit Glenn Robinson. Brian Grant. The late 90s and early 2000s were the era of guys having noticable dropoffs once they got a big contract. Plenty of starter level players were just happy to be in the league and didn't care. When we think back, we think of the guys who took every possession seriously. But in the moment there was Ricky Davis and Quentin Richardson and Tim Thomas. Rashard Lewis. I could go on.

One thing I will give the nostalgic crowd, I did like players hating each other. I loved the Kings and Lakers rivalry, because those guys really hated the other team. Cavs Warriors, especially pre-KD, was the only thing I've seen recently that approaches that level - but it's not even close because Lebron is a nice guy. I miss when guys genuinely were not friends off the court.
I don’t agree about less skill. I can take a player from the 90’s in Hakeem Olajuwon and see the most skilled center I’ve ever seen... Just cause he’s not stepping out to shoot 3’s doesn’t mean he’s not skilled... He’ll Rasheed Wallace played 20 years ago and he was one of the most skilled big men I’ve ever seen— even with these guys today and he was popping off 3’s left and right...

I can take players like McGrady and Paul Pierce from 20 years and watch their skill. The ability to take players off the dribble, get them in the post, upfakes, footwork, passing etc...

I can appreciate those same qualities in a guy like Luka today... The difference is the young guys today unlike the young guys of 20-25 years ago or more. “The others”....The ability to play winning, team basketball is what is lost and that is soft. You could take a high schooler like Al Harrington or Rashard Lewis and put them on veteran teams for a couple seasons and develop them into solid contributors and maybe fringe all stars... But they were also the 10th or 11th man...Today you have 19 years olds backing up 20 year olds..

These young guys today see the 1-4 sets with 1on1 dribbling exhibitions and they all believe they can do that... It’s just not the case. The Spurs are a prime example... You’re just not going to get this type of young talent to buy into a system and play continuing winning basketball...They all want to be James Harden or Steph Curry— both guys can (if need be) be just facilitators if they want. I’m watching Harden morph into that now...

The Heat and maybe the Celtics have done a decent job of getting young pieces and have been able to weave these guys into team first guys and have them utilize their talents in the framework of their cultures.. But the rest is just horrendous...
 
Hakeem was amazing. Would absolutely translate today. Absolutely amazing player who stuck to his strengths his entire career. One of my favorites.

Pierce agree but god was he annoying. McGrady fun and high scoring, wildly inefficient. Sheed great inside, was so inefficient from outside with those threes mentioned.
 
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I don’t agree about less skill. I can take a player from the 90’s in Hakeem Olajuwon and see the most skilled center I’ve ever seen... Just cause he’s not stepping out to shoot 3’s doesn’t mean he’s not skilled... He’ll Rasheed Wallace played 20 years ago and he was one of the most skilled big men I’ve ever seen— even with these guys today and he was popping off 3’s left and right...

I can take players like McGrady and Paul Pierce from 20 years and watch their skill. The ability to take players off the dribble, get them in the post, upfakes, footwork, passing etc...

I can appreciate those same qualities in a guy like Luka today... The difference is the young guys today unlike the young guys of 20-25 years ago or more. “The others”....The ability to play winning, team basketball is what is lost and that is soft. You could take a high schooler like Al Harrington or Rashard Lewis and put them on veteran teams for a couple seasons and develop them into solid contributors and maybe fringe all stars... But they were also the 10th or 11th man...Today you have 19 years olds backing up 20 year olds..

These young guys today see the 1-4 sets with 1on1 dribbling exhibitions and they all believe they can do that... It’s just not the case. The Spurs are a prime example... You’re just not going to get this type of young talent to buy into a system and play continuing winning basketball...They all want to be James Harden or Steph Curry— both guys can (if need be) be just facilitators if they want. I’m watching Harden morph into that now...

The Heat and maybe the Celtics have done a decent job of getting young pieces and have been able to weave these guys into team first guys and have them utilize their talents in the framework of their cultures.. But the rest is just horrendous...
Hakeem was for sure VERY skilled. That's why the Embiid comparison is to him. But he wasn't the norm. On the flip side, Embiid is also not the norm. It's just we have Jokic, Embiid, KAT, AD, and a few others. That position has arguably changed more than any other, though, so I don't want to harp on the centers.

No argument on the very young guys with a bigger role nowadays. But they are also drafted higher and come in the league better. A top 5-8 pick is usually going to start, and the majority of the guys who are one and done are high lottery nowadays. Even here, none of us want Garland (who barely played any college) coming off the bench. Harrington was the 25th pick and Lewis was a second rounder. Kobe was barely in the lottery.

I think a big difference in opinions about this era versus previous eras is whether you value how good the average player is or if you think mainly about the stars. The league as a whole has changed - but the top players in the from way back could still compete today. Hell, we'd love to see some of them in today's game where it's socially acceptable to shoot 7 threes from the 4 spot - Rasheed for example.
 
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Hakeem was amazing. Would absolutely translate today. Absolutely amazing player who stuck to his strengths his entire career. One of my favorites.

Pierce agree but god was he annoying. McGrady fun and high scoring, wildly inefficient. Sheed great inside, was so inefficient from outside with those threes mentioned.
He shot 33.6% from 3 on 2.9 attempts per game in his career - which was mostly in an era where they didn't shoot or work on them as much as they could. His last year as a starter quality player he shot 35.5% on 4.8 attempts (which was considering shooting it a ton for 2009 lol). I think he'd translate to now, but we'll never know.
 
Thanks for sharing the video of two of most finesse teams in the 80s. Try finding some of the Bulls, Pistons, and Jazz.
I remember watching the games with my dad. I’ve gone back and watched full games, including of the Bulls, Pistons and Jazz.

I know you mention them because they played defense, primarily in attempts to beat Jordan, unsuccessfully. In the 90s, they were successful in slowing games to a crawl and ending games in the 70s-90s.

But I’ve given you two inconvenient exceptions to the rules you guys are pointing out. And it so happens to be the two best teams of the 80s, the ones that everyone wanted to watch. Because they scored high, they ran out with the ball, they shot well and...they didnt really play a helluva lot of defense.

So my question for you is this...was basketball as a rule really what you guys are describing it as? Or are you describing it that way because it’s how you remember your personally preferred aspects of it and younger generations would have a tough time checking you on it without watching thousands of games?
 
He shot 33.6% from 3 on 2.9 attempts per game in his career - which was mostly in an era where they didn't shoot or work on them as much as they could. His last year as a starter quality player he shot 35.5% on 4.8 attempts (which was considering shooting it a ton for 2009 lol). I think he'd translate to now, but we'll never know.
I think Sheed would 100% translate to now.

Why?

Because he was a prickly, motivated sonofabitch and it was a big, athletic dude who worked on his game. But the game wasn’t what it is now. They didn’t have the tools they do now. IF he had all that and there was a magic time transport/transmogrification machine...he’d translate.

My point isn’t that the game was trash then FTR.

If you dropped guys from then into games now...lol. They’d get run off the fucking floor. Greats then would be completely irrelevant. They wouldn’t have the ball-handling skills. They wouldn’t have the conditioning. They’d get stripped constantly by lesser but stronger, quicker defenders. They’d get called for fouls every play if they tried to play the same way. Blah blah blah.

If you watch these guys from even 20 yrs ago you guys should be able to see this.

Want proof?

Are vets from today reverting to play like the 1990s or are they playing more like current day? Aka improving their ball-handling, outside shots, free throws, etc?

This is always an exercise in futility comparing eras head to head.

Jerry West was great for an era I couldnt be bothered to watch but I’m sure was incredibly exciting then. Maravich was amazing in his time but almost every PG in the league can do what he did now. Oscar Robertson was a MONSTER for his time, a time that had to have been absolutely electric. In today’s game...how good is he? How good is Wilt? Does Pat Ewing get away with all that (beautiful) deep mid range stuff without being able to take two more steps out?

In their times these guys are the best. With todays tech and knowledge, maybe they’d exceed current players. But...they didn’t.
 
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Also not to be controversial but 80s and 90s basketball sucks!!!!
Yeah they weren’t just running up the floor jacking up three ball every 3-4 times down the floor! And to your point of players back then getting run off the floor there isn’t one PG in this league that could “run” Zeke, Joe Dumars, or Norm Nixon off the floor or “strip” then. And nobody in the game today would be running The Doctor, Nique, or for that matter Hakeem off the floor! To put it in perspective NOT ONE CENTER in today’s game could stop Shaq, Hakeem or David Robinson. Not one!
 

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