Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

[I'mWithDan]

When the Cavs drafted him, everyone new his offense was lacking but felt it could be improved with coaching. I don't understand how everyone's patients is gone so quickly? Scroll down these pages and check out the first year stats for the following players:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

Kawhi Leonard Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Kawhi Leonard. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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James Harden Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of James Harden. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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Okoro is playing a ton of minutes. It is more relevant what advanced metrics said about these players.

Kawhi - 119 ORTG, 101 DRTG, 16.6 PER, 2.1 VORP, 3.4 BPM, 5.5 WS
Harden - 109 ORTG, 104 DRTG, 14 PER, 1.1 VORP, 0.5 BPM, 4.5 WS
Okoro - 98 ORTG, 116 DRTG, 6.6 PER, -0.7 VORP, -0.3 BPM, 0.2 WS

It is not pretty. The concerning thing is not that Okoro is struggling, rookies go through ebb and flow........it is that he's getting a ton of minutes and doing nothing analytically.

Raw counting stats are pretty useless in discussions like this because Okoro is one of the few rookies who has been given a role this big when he's not good. Harsh, I know but his numbers are horrendously bad analytically. Then when you look at his shooting numbers, oof. It is just hard.

Okoro needs some more time, as I believe he is playing out of position often but the early returns aren't great. There aren't many significant success cases where guys just look this bad initially. Doesn't mean he won't be an NBA player but if you wanted Okoro to develop in to a star, I'm not sure who the parallel is here.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Doesn't mean he won't be an NBA player but if you wanted Okoro to develop in to a star, I'm not sure who the parallel is here.

Jaylen Brown. Most of those numbers are either dependent on who you're playing with on the court, or are figured off of counting stats, or both, so they tell me very little about an individual player, but you wanted a parallel, so there you go. It took all of ten seconds to think of one, so I'm sure there are others.

 

["MVP"]

Also, Harden and Kawhi both had two years of college experience and full summer leagues / training camps under their belts. That MVP level bar is unfair for Okoro regardless, but I'm being lenient in my assessment of rookies this year. The only two rooks making a positive impact so far are Lamelo, who played professionally overseas, and Haliburton, who played two years of college hoops and was one of the top players in college last year.

 

[Derek]

When the Cavs drafted him, everyone new his offense was lacking but felt it could be improved with coaching. I don't understand how everyone's patients is gone so quickly? Scroll down these pages and check out the first year stats for the following players:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

Kawhi Leonard Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Kawhi Leonard. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

James Harden Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of James Harden. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

Leonard and Harden were significantly better players as rookies, so let's toss that comp to the side.

I can only speak for myself, but my patience isn't going anywhere. My expectations for Okoro were not high, but they were higher than what he's been able to do so far, but rookies typically suck, so I'm not going to write him off after less than half a season (especially under the circumstances).

 

[weepinwillow]

The reason he's getting minutes is twofold:
1. The Cavs have a "play the rookies no matter what" mantra, that I'm pretty sure is written on all the coach's coffee mugs.
2. He isn't making many rookie mistakes on offense and is already ahead of most of our other wing players on defense.
His jumpshot is the main thing holding him back, as advertised. Needs to get with Collin after games and woodshed like a maniac.

 

[Cavatt]

Okoro is playing a ton of minutes. It is more relevant what advanced metrics said about these players.

Kawhi - 119 ORTG, 101 DRTG, 16.6 PER, 2.1 VORP, 3.4 BPM, 5.5 WS
Harden - 109 ORTG, 104 DRTG, 14 PER, 1.1 VORP, 0.5 BPM, 4.5 WS
Okoro - 98 ORTG, 116 DRTG, 6.6 PER, -0.7 VORP, -0.3 BPM, 0.2 WS

It is not pretty. The concerning thing is not that Okoro is struggling, rookies go through ebb and flow........it is that he's getting a ton of minutes and doing nothing analytically.

Raw counting stats are pretty useless in discussions like this because Okoro is one of the few rookies who has been given a role this big when he's not good. Harsh, I know but his numbers are horrendously bad analytically. Then when you look at his shooting numbers, oof. It is just hard.

Okoro needs some more time, as I believe he is playing out of position often but the early returns aren't great. There aren't many significant success cases where guys just look this bad initially. Doesn't mean he won't be an NBA player but if you wanted Okoro to develop in to a star, I'm not sure who the parallel is here.

Guys, Harden was a demonstrably better defender than Okoro as a rookie. Don't you understand these numbers don't lie.

There is no difference in context between being on a championship level team as a rookie and on this years cavs either according to these numbers. No matter how good your teammates are, they cannot help you with your advanced numbers.

He's a bust shut it down.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Guys, Harden was a demonstrably better defender than Okoro as a rookie. Don't you understand these numbers don't lie.

There is no difference in context between being on a championship level team as a rookie and on this years cavs either according to these numbers. No matter how good your teammates are, they cannot help you with your advanced numbers.

He's a bust shut it down.

Harden also started a far higher percentage of his rookie season than Okoro and played way more minutes. Harden also had to deal with a team that had a lot of injuries and not much stability in the starting lineup. Okoro has the benefit of a team with few injuries, no significant roster changes, the higher priced players carrying most of the load, and Okoro isn’t asked to guard anybody who’s an offensive threat.

Particularly awful were his advanced stats against the Sixers. He did take a couple of charges in that game, but one was Joel Embiid who has less bulk than Windler.

 

[Cavatt]

Harden also started a far higher percentage of his rookie season than Okoro and played way more minutes. Harden also had to deal with a team that had a lot of injuries and not much stability in the starting lineup. Okoro has the benefit of a team with few injuries, no significant roster changes, the higher priced players carrying most of the load, and Okoro isn’t asked to guard anybody who’s an offensive threat.

Particularly awful were his advanced stats against the Sixers. He did take a couple of charges in that game, but one was Joel Embiid who has less bulk than Windler.

It's amazing. I mean, I would say Okoro has faced so much adversity and I would have imagined such a heavy minute load would have slowed him by now, but he just seems to be grinding and getting better. I am really happy with his shooting. It looks good enough that I am not worried about it at all.

His offense is def a work in progress, but I think we have seen some thing to be excited about especially since Drummond has been out.

How would Harden have looked with a center with a usage rate over 30? lol

 

[I'mWithDan]

Leonard and Harden were significantly better players as rookies, so let's toss that comp to the side.

I can only speak for myself, but my patience isn't going anywhere. My expectations for Okoro were not high, but they were higher than what he's been able to do so far, but rookies typically suck, so I'm not going to write him off after less than half a season (especially under the circumstances).

Yeah. That is where I am at. I expected him to not be good. And he has not been good.

Using names like Kawhi and Harden is silly, relative to their impact as rookies and their ability to play roles on better teams. And qualitatively speaking, how they looked against NBA players.

On a better team, Okoro would probably not be playing at all......if he were, it would be for 6-8 minutes a game and only as an off bench situational defender.

If you want to be positive, maybe he is being thrust in to a role he is not ready for.......but it is only a positive if that doesn't lead to it destroying his confidence. I don't think it will, he's seems like a tough guy but if he is going to be a good player, the excess of minutes should really vault him forward in year 2. If he doesn't look like significantly better and more productive player very quickly next season, I suspect we have whiffed on this pick. Guess we'll see.

 

[I'mWithDan]

Guys, Harden was a demonstrably better defender than Okoro as a rookie. Don't you understand these numbers don't lie.

There is no difference in context between being on a championship level team as a rookie and on this years cavs either according to these numbers. No matter how good your teammates are, they cannot help you with your advanced numbers.

He's a bust shut it down.

Isn't contributing on a championship level harder as a rookie?

Carving out minutes on a team trying to win is an almost impossible task for a first year player.

The fact that Kawhi and Harden contributed at an above league average level, on a good team, is exceptionally rare for rookies.

Okoro wouldn't even be playing on a good team, which stats aside, is a qualitative measure for how good a player is.

I'm not saying he's a bust.......I even said he was, IMO, playing out of position. But even playing out of position, you would just expect the net results to be better, relative to the number of minutes he is playing.

It is concerning that his splits don't intimate he is adjusting to his role or the competition.....but I don't think we can use stats in this thread, because they don't matter. Rookies on bad teams don't put up good sta......

Tyrese Haliburton Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Tyrese Haliburton. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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[Wham with the Right Hand]

I would argue that due to the shortened shot clock reset, rebounds are not as valuable as they were 10 years ago. Also I do think team rebounding is far more important then having a big who can individually get rebounds, that is partly due to the amount of 3s taken in the modern NBA, there are far more long rebounds then there ever has been, so having a slow center who grabs loads of boards isn’t very important, because so many rebounds bounce far from the rim. Drummonds numbers were also really inflated by him catching his own misses

Right and right. Failing to get the defensive rebound is not as bad when you no longer have to defend for another 24 seconds, but there are still a lot of times where the Cavs forced a miss on a 2-point shot, don't get the rebound, and the opponent hits a 3. In that case failing to secure the rebound cost 3 points.

Team rebounding is more important than in the past because of more long rebounds as you said, which is why it's not good to have starting forwards who play 33 minutes and get one rebound.

 

[MNCavsfan]

We drafted a project. He's going to play a ton of minutes and look bad in them. That's just how it goes.

 

[I'mWithDan]

Also, Harden and Kawhi both had two years of college experience and full summer leagues / training camps under their belts. That MVP level bar is unfair for Okoro regardless, but I'm being lenient in my assessment of rookies this year. The only two rooks making a positive impact so far are Lamelo, who played professionally overseas, and Haliburton, who played two years of college hoops and was one of the top players in college last year.

I guess. But we also had a chance to draft one of those players, and didn't. So for better or worse, Okoro is going to be tethered to anyone that comes after him, who is a significantly better player.

And so while Isaac is younger, expecting him to close that gap and be as productive as Hailburton has been, next season, is asking a lot to me.

 

[BigZ94]

Also, Harden and Kawhi both had two years of college experience and full summer leagues / training camps under their belts. That MVP level bar is unfair for Okoro regardless, but I'm being lenient in my assessment of rookies this year. The only two rooks making a positive impact so far are Lamelo, who played professionally overseas, and Haliburton, who played two years of college hoops and was one of the top players in college last year.

Lets also remember both those players were drafted into much better situations then Okoro, Kawhi being drafted to the regular 50 win Spurs with Timmy and Pop. Harden got drafted to a team that had already drafted two future MVPs and had a solid coach in Brooks, that team went on to win 50 games that year.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

I guess. But we also had a chance to draft one of those players, and didn't. So for better or worse, Okoro is going to be tethered to anyone that comes after him, who is a significantly better player.

And so while Isaac is younger, expecting him to close that gap and be as productive as Hailburton has been, next season, is asking a lot to me.

I think Okoro was a byproduct of the Cavs hedging their bets on Sexland honestly. If they drafted Haliburton then they had to move one of the guards and they didn't want to make that decision is my guess. Seems like teams didn't like his upside based on him dropping so far in the draft relative to the coverage prior as it seemed like multiple teams had him high on their big board.

It's a big assumption but let's say Okoro hits his absolute ceiling and Haliburton does the same, who do you take?