WMD found in Iraq

[kevolution]

Ok I am a little late in this coversation however I will add a couple things.

1.) Saddam is NOT connected to Al Quaida I don't care what you say. We were more connected to AL Quaida then that guy. That was another BS excuse we used after we couldn't find WMD's. Iraq was not harboring terrorists but it is now that we invaded.

2.) Cali your way outta bounds telling 3rd world countries to get off their asses and work. You have no clue. You were born in America. Even our poorest have it better than these third world countries. If it was so easy to just get up off their asses and work then why do they try and come to our country to do the work you won't do?

3.) Social Security is in trouble for our generation. I went to a seminar held by Kucinich on the damn thing. I will leave you all the facts after I gather them.

 

[Mandingo]

Bringing the truth.

 

[Maximus]

"Saddam is NOT connected to Al Quaida I don't care what you say."
Of course he's not....he's in prison, on trial, and soon to be put to death thanks to the US Armed Forces. He WAS connected.

"Iraq was not harboring terrorists but it is now that we invaded."
Again, ignoring the facts. Instead of "not caring what people say" you should open your mind and read the facts. If you hate Bush that's fine! But, spare me a boilerplate liberal line like "Iraq was not harboring terrorists"...that's just absurd.

----Abdul Rahman Yasin, who was indicted for mixing the chemicals for the bomb used in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six New Yorkers and injured over 1,000. Yasin fled to Baghdad after the attack, where he was given sanctuary and lived for years afterward.
----Khala Khadar al-Salahat, a top Palestinian deputy to Abu Nidal, who reportedly furnished Libyan agents with the Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. The attack killed all 259 passengers, including 189 Americans. Al-Salahat was in Baghdad last April and was taken into custody by U.S. Marines.
----Abu Nidal, whose terror organization is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, including 10 Americans, and wounding 788 more. Nidal lived in Baghdad from 1999 till August 2002, when he was found shot to death in his state-supplied home.
----Abu Abbas, who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship, during which wheelchair-bound American Leon Klinghoffer was pushed over the side to his death. U.S. troops captured Abbas in Baghdad on April 14, 2003. He died in U.S. custody last week.
----Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who ran an Ansar al-Islam terrorist training camp in northern Iraq and reportedly arranged the October 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Jordan. Al Zarqawi is still at large.
----Ramzi Yousef, who entered the U.S. on an Iraqi passport and was the architect of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing as well as Operation Bojinka, a foiled plot to explode 12 U.S. airliners over the Pacific. Bojinka was later adopted by Yousef's cousin Khalid Shaikh Mohammed as the blueprint for the Sept. 11 attacks.
Arrested in Pakistan in 1995, Yousef is currently serving a triple life sentence in Colorado's Supermax federal lockup.
----Mahmoud Besharat, the Palestinian businessman who traveled to Baghdad in March 2002 to collect funding from Saddam for the Palestinian Intifada. Besharat and others disbursed the funds in payments of $10,000 to $25,000 to West Bank families of terrorists who died trying to kill Israelis.
After Saddam announced his Intifada reward plan, 28 Palestinian homicide bombers killed 211 Israelis in attacks that also killed 12 Americans. A total of 1,209 people were injured.

For more details on Saddam Hussein's sponsorship of the terrorist networks that killed hundreds of innocent U.S. citizens, go to: http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/murdocksaddamarticle.pdf


I would encourage everyone to read parts of the independant translations of the recently de-classified "Saddam Dossier"....for those that really want to know the truth. There are thousands of pages in these IRAQI documents that clearly establish his links to terrorism. This isn't George Bush talking. This isn't FOX news talking. This is SADDAM's posse's own words!!! The "Saddam Dossier" is undisputable evidence of his links to terrorism. You won't hear Teddy, Hillary or CNN talking much about it...because they've already made up their mind and don't care what anyone says...even if it is in the Iraqi terrorist's own words.

Documenting Saddam's Link to Terror
June 11, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199053,00.html
Terror Links to Saddam's Inner Circle
June 12, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199052,00.html
Documents Support Saddam-Taliban Connection
June 16, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199757,00.html
Documents Support Saddam-Taliban Connection
June 23, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200820,00.html
Was Saddam Regime a Broker for Terror Alliances?
June 26, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200908,00.html
Was Saddam Regime a Broker for Terror Alliances?
July 05, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202271,00.html
Iraq How-to Manual Directed Arab Military Operatives In Afghanistan
July 06, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202277,00.html


"I went to a seminar held by Kucinich on the damn thing. I will leave you all the facts after I gather them."

KUCINICH???

OK...OK...Ok.....so AMac took a class and you listened to the great Dennis Kucinich. I'm citing the friggin SS Trustees Report! They are the ones in charge of keeping SS fully funded. If it was going to be "non-existant in 2010" as AMac proclaimed don't you think they'd be screaming from the roof tops? The trustees aren't going to sugarcoat the situation...they are going to paint the most accurate analysis they can. If they are going to exaggerate one way or the other they would say the situation is worse than it is. So with all do respect, I don't need to see AMac's class notes or Kucinich's ramblings...I've read what the SS trustees have to say. They know far more than AMac's teacher or Denny.
No one is disputing SS has issues, but let's not throw out these baseless claims that can't be supported by the real facts.

 

[Mandingo]

Finish the story on those. Tell about how Abu Nidal was shot on orders from Saddam and how Ramzi Yousef had a FAKE Iraqi passport; tell about how Abdul Rahman Yasin was arrested by Saddam. Finish up the rest for me.

9/11 Commission cleared Saddam of any link with 9/11 and didn't see him to be an immediate threat. US financed Saddam and Bin Laden does that mean that America is a state sponsor of terror?

I'm still saying that the biggest threat to American citizens is America. We HAVE to change how we operate over seas.

 

[Maximus]

Yes, thank Allah for Saddam, he got those bastards!LOL
Mandigo, I would liken that to you owning an apartment in Manhattan. In that apartment you knowingly house mutliple terrorists. You provide them free rent, monthly salaries and have people deliver them food/supplies. You deny any knowledge of their existance.
Then one day you look outside your window and see a 1000 soldiers. They say they're coming in if you don't turn them over....they say you are horboring terrorists. You say you know of no terrorists in your building. This dance goes on and on until you finally realize they are coming in and you are going to pay a grave consequence.
What do you do to avoid the invasion of your palatial estate?
First you go down and shoot one in the head 4 times...you felt he was planning to overthrow you anyway. He also pissed you off b/c he refused to train others in the building because he had cancer. You then swear to the authorities that you had no ties to him and you say he comitted suicide.(This is what Saddam claimed happened with Abu Nidal....suicide by 4 shots to the head???)
Then you go into the other terrrorist's apartments, shoot a few in the back, place a couple more under house arrest, then proclaim to the United States - "I got them! I got them! No need to invade!"
That's pretty much how the rest of the story went.

Mandigo, I really find it interesting how you use the 9/11 Commission when you feel it fits your needs but dispel it when it doesn't.
If we are discussing bin Laden's link to 9/11 or a plane flying into the Pentagon you say - "don't say the 9/11 commission report because I have read it...the things don't add up."
But, if we are discussion Saddam's link to 9/11 you say - "9/11 Commission cleared Saddam of any link with 9/11 and didn't see him to be an immediate threat."

One last point with regards to the 9/11 Commission Report. It didn't clear Saddam of any link, it just couldn't prove it. The 9/11 Report was also a compilation of documents up to 2003. Since then millions of documents and caches of information have subsequently been gathered from Iraq and other sources. If the Commission were to do a "Part Deux" with the info we have today they would be able to establish a link without a doubt...particularly if they had The Saddam Dossier.

As one analyst said - "You owe it to yourself to read the entire Saddam Dossier. It’s an eye-opening and vitally important look at how Saddam’s regime was interacting with terrorists behind the scenes. It turns out that the view of Saddam as a secular ruler uninterested in links with radical Islamists is false: Not only was Saddam Hussein funding terrorism openly and directly in the Palestinian Authority (by paying the families of suicide bombers), he was courting and and engaging the Taliban and brokering terrorist training arrangements all across the Islamic world.
And we have learned all of this from a single notebook kept by an IIS agent who was in the loop. What else might we learn by translating and analyzing the millions of other documents captured during the war?"

 

[Mandingo]

Damn right, somethings don't add up and others do. Same as with the Bible.

I base my opinions of what happened on everything that comes forward. If the world fails to see a connection of Saddam being in league with Bin Laden and can prove it then it works for me. If the world fails to see Saddam being a threat to America or the world, and can prove it then that works for me. What doesn't work is when one side claims something yet there is proof otherwise.

If there is information pointing to other players in the 9/11 attack and the finger happens to point here as well then i want it looked at. I don't want somebody saying its bullsh*t beacuse they are only focused on arabs.

You still didn't answer my question since the United States supported and supports terror regimes and dictators does that make the U.S. a state sponsor of terror? If you answer no then you have no base for your argument on Saddam supporting anybody.

 

[Maximus]

"I base my opinions of what happened on everything that comes forward."
How did you do that in the case of the Pentagon? A plane went missing. 100's of witnesses testified watching a plane fly over their cars and outside of the their buildings and into the Pentagon. There were parts of a 767, bodies, etc recovered from the Pentagon. The 9/11 commission said the plane flew into the building. Yet b/c there is a missing video we must assume something esle?
Occam's razor applies here more than it ever has.

"If the world fails to see a connection of Saddam being in league with Bin Laden and can prove it then it works for me. If the world fails to see Saddam being a threat to America or the world, and can prove it then that works for me."
We must agree to disagree...I dont think the world has done any such thing. There is hard core proof linking Saddam to terrorists/Osama/9-11...some people just refuse to look at it. From reading this board you would assume there was more proof linking Bush to 9/11, yet there is none.

"What doesn't work is when one side claims something yet there is proof otherwise."
Like those claiming Bush ordered a tomahawk cruise missle shot into the Pentagon? Or claiming he laced two 110 story buildings with Composite-4?

Yes the US has supported dictators and terror regimes in the past. Usually because they are supporting the lesser of two evils. Sometimes they were right...other times wrong. Like Bill Clinton giving NKorea $4 billion for food and to build nuclear reactors for electricity for the starving which are now procuding nuclear weapons that they'd probably like to use on us.
I by no means think the US is perfect and I agree we can be our own worst enemies. But I'm not going to ignore facts or re-write history just because I hate the President or he's not from my political party.

 

[Mandingo]

1.) There are reports to contridict everything that you think happened, but you don't seem to want anything looked into. Thats fine, wouldn't want to upset your dream world.

2.) No proof linking Bush to anything but the problem is that there IS proof that others were involved and nobody wants to look into it. The only thing that ties Bush to 9/11 is that he lied about Iraq.

3.) Again not saying Bush ordered any type of strike or that he had knowledge of anything but there is evidence that something else may have happened.

I'm against Bush because he isn't helping anything. He has the country divided right down the middle. People are starving and dying all over the world, the enviroment is messed up and regardless what you may think about the tax system or SS people are hurting the economy is not in good shape.

You can get into the whole well its not the problem of the US bit but if thats the case then why are we in Iraq and why do we have bases set up all over. Fact of the matter is it is the problem of the US. When people here own 5 and 6 houses and own 6 and 7 cars have TVs in every room of the house and in all of their cars it is a problem. How can the greatest country in the world complain about sending money but have no problem sending rockets?

Bill Clinton F'ed up with N. Korea but at least he was trying to help solve the problem. Bush is compounding problems that he doesn't even recognize as problems.

 

[kevolution]

Max here is what I learned,
When SS was started, there was twenty or thirty or forty people working and paying into Social security for every one person who was receiving benefits. There are now 3.5 people working for everyone who is receiving benefits.
In another ten or twenty years, there will be one person paying into social security for everyone who is receiving benefits. That is the first issue.

The second issue is that SS is paying out far more than what it did in the 1930s, when it started. Originally, it was strictly as an addition to one's pension. Then it started paying children of deceased people. Then it started paying people who were disabled and who stopped working early due to disability. Then the benefit was increased because a lot of people did not have pensions..........Get the picture? The politicians kept changing it to make it help more and more people. It became increasingly expensive to fulfill all of those promises.

Now Social Security is going broke because there is more going out than what is coming in. In additon, the Government, for years, as taken all of the Social Security surpluses for help pay for the military and whatever. When they borrowed that money, SS was flush and loaded with cash. Not so anymore. The Federal Government has been robbing Peter to pay Paul and the soon will have to start paying those IOUs for money it "borrowed" for the last fifty years. We are talking billions and billions. Do you think that the Federal Government has the funds, the resources to repay Social Security? I think that there is a very real chance that the Government could default on those IOUs and then we will be living in chaos and economic collapse. The only thing that keeps us functioning, economically, is faith in the currency and the government. If they default on money owed to SS, there will riots, panic in the streets and bloodshed. I shit you not.

You can hate on Kucinich all you want but he wants to help our social security so it last long enough for us and the guy was one of the only one's to stand up to Bush when he first declared war. Kucinich stands for alot of good things.

I know you pull up alot of facts but from where do they come?
I mean are these Rupert Murdoch facts or White House facts. I don't doubt some terrorists kicked in bagdad before but there is a shitload more now than ever and who created that?

 

[Mandingo]

Hey kev didn't the Govt. already default on something? There was a report a while back about them defaulting on a loan which is why they had to raise the debt limit again. Im not sure on the story and i really don't like looking stuff up so if you heard anything about this please post some info. Thanks.

 

[kevolution]

No, they have NEVER defaulted on loan repayments. If they had, the dollar would be worth zero. Periodically, at the end of the fiscal year, they stop spending until Congress and the President can agree on a new budget. Sometimes, when that happens, some newspaper article will mention that the government had to "shut down" to "avoid defaulting". It's a technicality, but without an approved budget, they technically have no money to spend.

 

[Mandingo]

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/40008/Flight_93_Eyewitness_Accounts.html

 

[Maximus]

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/40008/Flight_93_Eyewitness_Accounts.html

That ending was pure comedy "Did you see a Boeing at the crash site?" :chuckles: Of course not....the plane was going 500 MPH staight down into the ground. What did they expect to see a fuselage? People still strapped into their seats?

Mandigo, seriously, what are you implying by posting this video? I'm interested in hearing what the conspiracy theorists think happened here. Do they think it was a cruise missle that caused the crater and that our government rerouted the plane to a hidden hanger with the other plane that didn't hit the Pentagon? Honestly, give me one other scenario besides a plane being hijacked and crashing into the ground in Somerset County.

 

[Mandingo]

Its Mandingo. I put the vid up because it doesn't make sense to me. I have seen other plane crashes with debris all thrown about but this one i didn't see that. Argue what you want to about this but im still going to have my doubts with stuff like this floating around.

 

[Maximus]

Not sure what doesn't make sense. Cleveland ATC and many other ATC's tracked Flight 93 on radar from the moment it took off until it disappeared at that exact location. Passengers called 911 and family members saying they were hijacked by Arabs. There are transcipts of the Arab sounding men transmitting over the radio that they had control of the plane. Planes in the area saw the plane in the sky, then they didn't, then they saw smoke coming from the ground. ATC nor the planes in the area saw any military planes/missles in the area or on radar. ATC said the plane was in a vertical dive when it hit the ground...it was pulverized. 100's of volunteers sifted through the debree collecting body pieces for the Somerset coroner and sending the plane parts back to United. All the evidence points to it being plane...nothing suggests otherwise.

Here is a recording of the ATC trying to communicate with flight 93 and other planes nearby. http://69.57.136.18/cvrfiles2/ua93.wav


Here's some qotes from the local Somerset Coroner who had the unenviable task of idenitifying the remains...

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/3972571.ht
No bodies were recovered here, at least not as we normally think of bodies. In the cataclysmic violence of the crash, the people on Flight 93 literally disintegrated. Searchers found fragments of bones, small pieces of flesh, a hand. But no bodies.

In the grisly accounting of a jetliner crash, it comes down to pounds: The people on Flight 93 weighed a total of about 7,500 pounds. Miller supervised an intensive effort to gather their remains, some flung hundreds of yards. In the end, just 600 pounds of remains were collected; of these, 250 pounds could be identified by DNA testing and returned to the families of the passengers and crew.

Forty families, wanting to bury their loved ones. Two hundred fifty pounds of identifiable remains.

"There were people who were getting a skull cap and a tooth in the casket," Miller says. "That was their loved ones."

The rest of the remains, the vast majority, will stay here forever, in this ground.

"For all intents and purposes, they're buried here," Miller says. "This is a cemetery."

This is also hallowed ground.


and more from the local coroner....

Washington Post, May 12, 2002

Excerpt: The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground.

As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, [Wally] Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.