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2012 Series #33 @ Twins -|- July 27th, 28th, and 29th.

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People forget Shapiro was one of the main architects of the 90s teams along with John Hart.

Just because he was on the Indians front office payroll doesn't mean he was calling some of the shots.

Pretty sure Hart did what he thought was the best to do. Since GMs make the final decisions.
 
As a cleveland sports fan,its heart breaking to see the Pirates after many years of mediocrity not only playing well, but making moves to stay atop the NL Central with a farm system with brighter hopes than ours.

Even more disappointing is the Pirates rise was architected by former Tribe Assistant GM Neil Huntington
 
Small market teams have to load up for small windows of contention and then tear it back down. The Tribe doesn't do that. They straddle the fence. 2007 was the perfect time to put the chips in the middle. You had 2 Cy Young caliber pitchers, one of whom you knew was on his way out. You had a pen that was pitching over it's head with about 3 guys who were lights out every appearance. Do they go out and bring in another high quality starter? A big stick to help a mediocre offense? Nah. A platoon outfielder on his last legs. . . . . At some point they are going to have to pony up the cash for a couple of seasons to make a serious run at a ring and then strip it down. Either that, or they better start drafting and developing like Tampa and I don't see that happening any time soon.

great post red

Tampa and Oakland are making the right decisions to stay competitive and acquiring or developing talent year after year. both teams have a collection of impressive young arms that will keep them competitive for years.

the trades Billy Beane made this year have worked out great for Oakland
 
Just because he was on the Indians front office payroll doesn't mean he was calling some of the shots.

Pretty sure Hart did what he thought was the best to do. Since GMs make the final decisions.

He was the assistant GM, it's not like he was an intern.

AGM, at least in my experience has been wholly responsible for big league scouting, point person on international relations and pretty much anything amateur contract related.
 
no one is calling Shapiro an intern

Shapiro was only one of a number of those under Hart that contributed to the success of the Tribe in the 90s . there were others that contributed only to move on and do well elsewhere

Not to speak for AMC , but I believe the point was to give John Hart credit as he was at the helm for the most productive years of Indian baseball
 
He was the assistant GM, it's not like he was an intern.

AGM, at least in my experience has been wholly responsible for big league scouting, point person on international relations and pretty much anything amateur contract related.

I am pretty sure a GM also calls the shots on all the trades made and players added. I don't think Hart would've let Shapiro take the phones and wheel and deal (which I doubt that would happen anyway since Shapiro seems scared to add anything.)

I am gonna keep going about Shapiro...He might be respected like you said before, probably because he is a nice guy, and thats it. He has barely grown any type of talent through the draft and does not seem very aggressive when it comes to adding pieces to help contend. In what way has he been a great executive? He seems to be more focused on hot dog combos and transportation for the fans than anything.

He has lived off the trade of Bartolo Colon his entire career, and has nothing else great to add to his record. He failed to add anything significant in the offseason when the team comes off a promising year. He failed to bring in any effective prospects for 2 Cy Young winners. And year after year he takes marginal players in the draft so they can "save money for later rounds"...who in the later rounds is worth saving money for??

And yes, he brought in the likes of Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin-Soo Choo, and a few others for nobodies...thats great, but he has failed to surround the talent he has brought in.

And don't even say he isn't involved in player movement as much since Antonetti is the GM...we all know Shapiro is breathing down his neck.
 
I am pretty sure a GM also calls the shots on all the trades made and players added. I don't think Hart would've let Shapiro take the phones and wheel and deal (which I doubt that would happen anyway since Shapiro seems scared to add anything.)

I am gonna keep going about Shapiro...He might be respected like you said before, probably because he is a nice guy, and thats it. He has barely grown any type of talent through the draft and does not seem very aggressive when it comes to adding pieces to help contend. In what way has he been a great executive? He seems to be more focused on hot dog combos and transportation for the fans than anything.

He has lived off the trade of Bartolo Colon his entire career, and has nothing else great to add to his record. He failed to add anything significant in the offseason when the team comes off a promising year. He failed to bring in any effective prospects for 2 Cy Young winners. And year after year he takes marginal players in the draft so they can "save money for later rounds"...who in the later rounds is worth saving money for??

And yes, he brought in the likes of Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin-Soo Choo, and a few others for nobodies...thats great, but he has failed to surround the talent he has brought in.

And don't even say he isn't involved in player movement as much since Antonetti is the GM...we all know Shapiro is breathing down his neck.

Well yes, that is his job now as team president.

Antonetti now handles everything baseball related.

The AGM and the GM have barely any distinguishable differences besides appearance in the public eye. In today's MLB, it's a young mans game, the AGM has his hand in EVERYTHING while the GM focuses mainly on the big league club.

Regardless, Shapiro and Hart didn't build the 90s teams alone...But they were the two crucial figureheads.
 
Well yes, that is his job now as team president.

Antonetti now handles everything baseball related.

The AGM and the GM have barely any distinguishable differences besides appearance in the public eye. In today's MLB, it's a young mans game, the AGM has his hand in EVERYTHING while the GM focuses mainly on the big league club.

Regardless, Shapiro and Hart didn't build the 90s teams alone...But they were the two crucial figureheads.
I gotcha. I just remember Hart talking on MLB Network about the 90's Indians and it seemed like he was very involved in everything.


EDIT: I typed a nice few paragraphs about Shapiro I thought you would respond to.
 
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Well yes, that is his job now as team president.

Antonetti now handles everything baseball related.

The AGM and the GM have barely any distinguishable differences besides appearance in the public eye. In today's MLB, it's a young mans game, the AGM has his hand in EVERYTHING while the GM focuses mainly on the big league club.

Regardless, Shapiro and Hart didn't build the 90s teams alone...But they were the two crucial figureheads.

Except drafts. Because everyone knows the GM doesn't hold any culpability for poor drafting.
 
great post red

Tampa and Oakland are making the right decisions to stay competitive and acquiring or developing talent year after year. both teams have a collection of impressive young arms that will keep them competitive for years.

the trades Billy Beane made this year have worked out great for Oakland
And the Yoenis Cespedes contract is looking like a bargain for the A's. He's a monster.
 
For me you can't give diminish Hart's part in the success in the 90s , while giving shapiro a pass for the team poor on field results , the sad state of talent on the farm and general disconnect with the casual fan since Hart's departure.

You can blame the Dolans to an extent for not having the deep pocket of other owners to overspend and mask these deficiencies, however the reality is other front offices in small markets have figured it out.

the thing that I find is insulting is asking the average fan to have faith in the organization as they stick to "the plan" when that plan seemingly changes from year to year , especially when you still don't have have any starting pitching and only one position player (Kipnis) that had any success since Shapiro took over the helm.

By all accounts Shapiro is a bright guy that was in demand. my issue is the onfield results haven't lived up to his wunder kid rep . Its been 11 years since 2001 when Hart left . With one playoff run in 2007, a farm system with few players that have produced at the major league level , a disconnect with general fans and resulting declining attendance, you can see why some might not have the warm feelings for this guy.

I don't know where saying its a young man's game is relevant. we have had a young front office that have embraced the changing face of baseball. my issue they have done a poor job while other small market teams have done a better job and are in a better position moving forward
 
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Except drafts. Because everyone knows the GM doesn't hold any culpability for poor drafting.

agreed you can't give Shapiro credit for the 90s while ignoring the drafting results since 2001 . . . I wish I had 11 years to figure out my job!
 
Last year you give up top prospects for a win now pitcher. Over the winter they follow that up by picking up players out of the bargain bin. It makes no sense. If you aren't ready to spend what it takes to go for it, don't trade away your best prospects. Are you trying to win now or build for the future? You can't do both in this market. Pick a plan and go with it. If you don't, you get what we have now. A team that is good enough that fans will kill you for selling, but bad enough that it makes no sense to buy.

At some point they are going to have to pony up the cash for a couple of seasons to make a serious run at a ring and then strip it down. Either that, or they better start drafting and developing like Tampa and I don't see that happening any time soon.

How many times have you been over nobody wanted to come here because of the fans that don't show up? They tried but the fans failed. This isn't a video game where its only about money, the players actually have to want to play here.
 
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well at least we don't face Liriano tomorrow

another marginal lefty can thwart us

at least we finally rid ourselves of Cunnigham

White Sox have acquired Liriano :puke:
 
Except drafts. Because everyone knows the GM doesn't hold any culpability for poor drafting.

But of course, someone with your expertise on the subject is there to let us know this is false...right?

In fact, I'm not even sure what the point of having a scouting department is...the GM is the only guy that does anything.
 

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