Carrick Felix traded to Jazz for Lucas, Murphy, and Thomas

[KI4MVP]

I'm so confused with these things. Everyone says something different. What does "at least 60 days"? Is there something that can happen that could increase the time he can be aggregated in a trade? Or is is just 60 days.

it's just 60 days. As of today we can combine all 3 players in a trade.

 

[daytripper]

Despite the fact he's not a shot blocker I would've taken Zaza. Too bad that 2nd year left on his contract is fully guaranteed so I'll pass.

Their best bet might be to take an expiring such as Joel Anthony. That would give them all the way to the trade deadline to make a deal. They could then combine that expiring contract with a pick or a player(s) at the deadline.

Hope I'm wrong but my guess is there isn't much out there they can do with the non guaranteeds at this point. Houston just dealt their nonguaranteed contracts last week for the expiring corpse of Jason Terry. The Celtics are sitting on Keith Bogans' 5.3 million nonguaranteed contract and haven't found a taker yet.

 

[Frank Stallone]

My understanding was Malcolm Thomas could be traded, just not with any other player, until September 22nd, 2015. I think that is the restriction in place, so very little can be aquired for him.

Wait... is that a typo? 2015?

 

[Cavatt]

The cabs wanted Mozgov with this trade and it sounds like they won't get him. I think the Utah trade turns out to be a bust.

 

[kovanovich]

I though those contracts became fully guaranteed in August?

If not, who is all unguaranteed and how much can we trade for given there 3 contracts?

Murphy is now technically guaranteed $100K (as of Aug 1st or something like that). He will be guaranteed a total of $200K as of Nov. 1st.

All 3 players become completely guaranteed as of Jan 10th (or whatever the exact date is).

It doesn't make much sense for the Cavs to keep all 3 guys till January only as potential trade chips (those roster spots are too valuable), so I am guessing that they will be traded before the season starts, or else they (at least one or two of them) will simply be cut. MoFlo continues to say they won't be on the team, and I have no reason to doubt him.

I did the calculations during the summer, and no one to my knowledge questioned me so I think I am right....The 3 contracts can bring back around $5M...an important figure because it can be used to get Mozgov, Sam Dalembert, Joel Anthony, or a number of other guys.

I had purposefully omitted Anthony's name from lists of centers potentially available via trade, because I was hoping for something better, but he actually does make sense in that Boston has no use for him and they would conceivably prefer to use his roster spot on a younger player and save $3.8M in the bargain. As someone else said, if the Cavs wanted to upgrade and a better player like Mozgov became available, they could potentially flip his expiring contract at that point.

I suspect an Anthony trade will be out there till late in training camp, so the Cavs can wait to see if something better comes along.

Of course, trading for Anthony would be another step towards reconstituting the Miami Heat. Not sure what LeBron's relationship with Anthony is like. One plus is that he is Canadian.

On Minny/Turiaf. I had thought at the time of the Love trade that the Cavs could get Turiaf as part of the deal since Minny would presumably want to shed a salary so they could sign GRIII. But there was never any substantive rumor connecting the Cavs with Turiaf. Unlike Corey Brewer, for instance, whose name was included in a number of rumors, but who presumably became unnecessary from the Cavs' perspective once it became clear that Marion would sign for the minimum. So anyway, I just think the Cavs had no interest in Turiaf, so we have to live with that and not view it as a missed opportunity.

On the Houston trade of the former Cleveland non-guaranteeds for Jason Terry. It wasn't a great return for those salaries, but they did also get two second round picks. (It hasn't been reported, to my knowledge, which second round picks, and it you go to the Real GM Picks Owed page, you'll see that Sacramento has traded away and traded for so many second round picks that it is difficult to figure out what picks they actually have. So Morey was able to replenish some of the resources he gave away this summer.)

Speaking of Morey and Houston, they now have 16 guaranteed salaries, and others on RCF have wondered whether the Cavs could pry away Motiejunas, but even if he has been a bit of a disappointment I can't believe Morey would paint himself into a corner where he had to give him a big man who may still have some untapped potential, unless he has simply given up on him.

As usually happens, I'm sure there is a case we haven't thought of, but at a minimum the Cavs need to try to get something for these guys, even if it is a second round pick and an expiring, who could then be packaged at the deadline.

 

[col63onel]

I did the calculations during the summer, and no one to my knowledge questioned me so I think I am right....The 3 contracts can bring back around $5M...an important figure because it can be used to get Mozgov, Sam Dalembert, Joel Anthony, or a number of other guys.

This was true until we signed Marion, Kirk and Crawford.

The 5 mil came from 150% of the combined salary of the Utah trio. You can only go up to 150% if you are still under the luxury tax after the trade (or, as Wuck likes to say, "after the dust clears"). If we traded the Utah trio, we'd only have 4.4 mil until we hit the luxury tax. Cutting one of of Kirk/Crawford would allow us to take on very close to the full 5. Cutting both would easily allow it, depending on when any part of the contracts become guaranteed.

 

[MoFlo]

Part of Lloyd's final thoughts of the summer:

They like Timofey Mozgov, but the Nuggets have shown no inclination to deal him. There doesn’t appear to be a trade available for any sort of rim protector right now, so the Cavs may look to bundle the trio of players they received from Utah (John Lucas III, Erik Murphy and Malcolm Thomas) in exchange for a trade exception to be used later.

The Cavs felt they needed to move Carrick Felix because his contract was guaranteed and they needed the cap space to sign LeBron and all his friends. That prompted the trade with the Jazz for the three non-guaranteed contracts. Now they can flip those contracts to a team looking to create cap room and acquire a small trade exception for future use.

As I said, there's no way they're on the roster to start the season..

 

[kovanovich]

Part of Lloyd's final thoughts of the summer:

They like Timofey Mozgov, but the Nuggets have shown no inclination to deal him. There doesn’t appear to be a trade available for any sort of rim protector right now, so the Cavs may look to bundle the trio of players they received from Utah (John Lucas III, Erik Murphy and Malcolm Thomas) in exchange for a trade exception to be used later.

The Cavs felt they needed to move Carrick Felix because his contract was guaranteed and they needed the cap space to sign LeBron and all his friends. That prompted the trade with the Jazz for the three non-guaranteed contracts. Now they can flip those contracts to a team looking to create cap room and acquire a small trade exception for future use.

As I said, there's no way they're on the roster to start the season..

I mean, I know the cap issues this summer were confusing, but the Cavs didn't need to move Felix to sign LeBron and "all his friends." Felix wasn't dealt till July 22nd. The Cavs cleared sufficient space to sign LeBron to the max by trading Jack/Thornton, Karasev and Zeller.

(In fact, I wrote a post this summer that pointed out that the Cavs didn't need to trade Zeller to clear max space, except that they brought back Haywood in one of the convoluted deals. If they hadn't traded for Haywood, then trading Zeller wouldn't have been necessary. Whether it was necessary to trade him to get Boston to execute the Jack salary dump is another matter.)

Then the Cavs used cap exceptions -- room exception for Miller, and vet minimum for Jones and Marion -- on the friends, which they could have done regardless of what they did with Felix.

The Cavs also gave up their 2015 second round pick in the Felix deal. Sure, it will be very late in the draft, but it is a minor asset that could have been part of a trade.

I think the complexities of the cap allow teams to get away with moves that are under-reported, misreported, or not even questioned because reporters don't understand what happened.

I think all of this is sort of relevant since the Cavs are heading into the season with a starting center who has missed more than half his games over the last 4 seasons, and a backup who hasn't played in well over a year and on the eve of training camp "isn't close to game condition" (Llloyd).

 

[MoFlo]

I mean, I know the cap issues this summer were confusing, but the Cavs didn't need to move Felix to sign LeBron and "all his friends." Felix wasn't dealt till July 22nd. The Cavs cleared sufficient space to sign LeBron to the max by trading Jack/Thornton, Karasev and Zeller.

(In fact, I wrote a post this summer that pointed out that the Cavs didn't need to trade Zeller to clear max space, except that they brought back Haywood in one of the convoluted deals. If they hadn't traded for Haywood, then trading Zeller wouldn't have been necessary. Whether it was necessary to trade him to get Boston to execute the Jack salary dump is another matter.)

Then the Cavs used cap exceptions -- room exception for Miller, and vet minimum for Jones and Marion -- on the friends, which they could have done regardless of what they did with Felix.

The Cavs also gave up their 2015 second round pick in the Felix deal. Sure, it will be very late in the draft, but it is a minor asset that could have been part of a trade.

I think the complexities of the cap allow teams to get away with moves that are under-reported, misreported, or not even questioned because reporters don't understand what happened.

I think all of this is sort of relevant since the Cavs are heading into the season with a starting center who has missed more than half his games over the last 4 seasons, and a backup who hasn't played in well over a year and on the eve of training camp "isn't close to game condition" (Llloyd).

They traded for Haywood specifically for his contract, so Zeller was gone regardless. Not to mention, like you said, I do believe he was needed to execute the Jack salary dump.

Not worried at all about the '15 2nd rd pick, those are relatively easy to come by. The non-guaranteed contracts honestly have more value than a draft pick in the late 50's/60

 

[wuck]

the Cavs may look to bundle the trio of players they received from Utah (John Lucas III, Erik Murphy and Malcolm Thomas) in exchange for a trade exception to be used later.

I don't understand the motivation for another team to trade for the non-guaranteed contracts of the Utah players unless they are getting rid of a contract they don't like, or unless they really like one of the players, or unless the Cavs are sending out some sweetener. So, I don't follow how the Cavs would be getting a trade exception out of any deal unless some team owes them a favor. I guess it doesn't hurt the other team to accept players they can just waive, but I would think they would ask for something.

 

[shoes22]

I like how Lloyd is referring to this as "needing cap space to sign LeBron and all his friends"...so there's no ambiguity as to who's really running this team.

 

[daytripper]

I don't understand the motivation for another team to trade for the non-guaranteed contracts of the Utah players unless they are getting rid of a contract they don't like, or unless they really like one of the players, or unless the Cavs are sending out some sweetener. So, I don't follow how the Cavs would be getting a trade exception out of any deal unless some team owes them a favor. I guess it doesn't hurt the other team to accept players they can just waive, but I would think they would ask for something.

I suppose they could also bundle the 3 for a small guaranteed contract say in the 2 million neighborhood that another team is looking to dump and that would generate a small 1.5 mil TE? Just thinking out loud. Maybe there's a team out there that really likes Malcolm Thomas or JL3 as the 14th or 15th man on their roster? I think Philly might be below the salary floor and might take on some nonguaranteed cap filler?

 

[MirORich]

Not all opportunities can be capitalized upon. But some you still take the risk to be able to capitalize on them 10/10 times.

So given the state of our roster and the overall talent of the player traded(no offense to Felix), you do the Utah deal 10/10 times solely to have that window where IF a player you like becomes available from a team who decides they want to save money you can strike with the ungauranteed contracts.

It will not be a failure at all if after making calls all August and September, there's just not a great deal to be had and we end up at best trading for a Joel Anthony or a trade exception and at worst cutting some combo of those Utah players.

It was still a great risk/reward move for Griffin to make regardless of whether it ends off paying off as highly as he(and we) had hoped.

 

[kovanovich]

I don't understand the motivation for another team to trade for the non-guaranteed contracts of the Utah players unless they are getting rid of a contract they don't like, or unless they really like one of the players, or unless the Cavs are sending out some sweetener. So, I don't follow how the Cavs would be getting a trade exception out of any deal unless some team owes them a favor. I guess it doesn't hurt the other team to accept players they can just waive, but I would think they would ask for something.

Right, it doesn't make sense for a team to trade for the Utah guys if they weren't sending something back (like a Jason Terry) or getting a sweetener. The Utah guys are potentially attractive to a team looking to clear a roster spot (like Minny, maybe Boston, maybe Houston), save some money (particularly if they are close to the luxury tax, as the LAC were -- why didn't the Cavs try to get in on that LAC pick?), or some combination (like Minny wanting to clear a roster spot and get rid of Barea and his contract)...You know, I don't think the 3 Utah guys for Barea is a bad deal. I would hold out for Minny's 2015 second rounder and a 2016 second rounder. Then you can flip Barea (expiring $4.5M contract) and the picks at the deadline. Till then, you have your 3rd string PG to play some garbage time. That or the same deal with Boston for Anthony (probably no picks involved in that deal).

A TE is all well and good, but TEs are inflexible (can be for no more than the amount of the exception), and sound more useful in theory than they typically are in practice.

 

[Ruken]

I like how Lloyd is referring to this as "needing cap space to sign LeBron and all his friends"...so there's no ambiguity as to who's really running this team.

Yea but they were solid signings. Can never have enough shooters


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