Dion Waiters Traded

[Ernie McCracken]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

kyrie had a conditioning problem, not a weight problem, or questionable work ethic. thats a pretty big difference, imo.

Waiters shouldnt be judged immediately, and he deserves to be given some time before hes judged, but he has a lot to prove, imo. he came in with potential, but not much of a resume for a #4 pick. its been a very short period of time since he was drafted, but he hasnt shown much in terms of fulfilling his ptential or answering those questions yet.

 

[chrisrich91]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Everything in that breakdown is highly correctable and excusable, Jon. Taking off too far from the basket, shot selection, leaning on his jumper, looking a step slower than he usually does...he's out of shape, learning the more open game, and a little nervous.

The taking off from too far away especially reminds me of Kyrie picking up his dribble right after crossing halfcourt early last year. These guys are over thinking trying to adjust. We can't do analysis like that until AFTER they're comfortable.

I'll continue to stand up for my guy until enough time has gone by for me to change my opinion on him. We're not even CLOSE to that point. Not even close.

 

[Snowblind]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Does anyone see Marcus Thornton in Dion? Both are the same size and known for scoring. I could see Dion putting up the same numbers as Marcus too.

 

[Futuredome]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Summer basketball is more irrevelant than people want to know. Not only how you look mean nothing, but outside systematic learning, there is nothing to see physically that matters. It is like OTC's and mini-camps in football. Yawn.

From a coaches perspective, it is all about teaching and nothing else. So Waiters is not firing on all cylinders physically, big surprise.

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Everything in that breakdown is highly correctable and excusable, Jon.

Correctable, perhaps, but not excusable. Dion isn't some undrafted free-agent like Samardo where you understand if he's ever going to make it, it's going to take time for him to get in to shape, learn what he's doing on the floor, develop his work-habits, etc. And somehow Samardo still managed to impress in Summer League.

Expectations would be a bit different if Dion was taken #15 as he was projected at one point, or if it was known he was going to be a project ... but that's not the bill of goods we were sold.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to change your opinion on him. Players can and do turn things around ... the question is whether we're talking days or years.

 

[Futuredome]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Correctable, perhaps, but not excusable. Dion isn't some undrafted free-agent like Samardo where you understand if he's ever going to make it, it's going to take time for him to get in to shape, learn what he's doing on the floor, develop his work-habits, etc. And somehow Samardo still managed to impress in Summer League.

Expectations would be a bit different if Dion was taken #15 as he was projected at one point, or if it was known he was going to be a project ... but that's not the bill of goods we were sold.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to change your opinion on him. Players can and do turn things around ... the question is whether we're talking days or years.

There are on expectations for summer ball. All expectations are for the regular season. Your trying to support your bias by irrevelance.

 

[weepinwillow]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Does anyone see Marcus Thornton in Dion? Both are the same size and known for scoring. I could see Dion putting up the same numbers as Marcus too.

Very good comp, when I first read it I was like, "give me a break." Then I looked it up, thought a bit more about it, and yeah, that's a very good comp to Waiters. And if Waiters goes for 15, 2 and 3 while shooting .441 and .362, that's a good year for him. (though would prefer better assist numbers)

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Waiters won't be the first nor the last player to arrive at a training camp out of shape, but just because he's out of shape and tired from practices shouldn't mean he can't play well or play smart.

Sure it does. An out of shape guy is going to look slower, lack burst, and make different decisions than a guy who is in shape. He'll take a low energy jumper rather than a high energy drive. He's going to be sluggish on defense, trying to catch his wind rather than hustling. And his tired legs will mean no lift on his jumper -- it's going to look bad. Now, maybe some of those problems will remain once he does get in shape, but as of right now, being out of shape can explain what is happening.

This is pretty scathing... and much of it is not all that excusable:

Well, it's certainly not "excusable" for a guy to come in out of shape to summer league, but nobody is arguing that it is. The question is whether you can fairly attribute his play to being out of shape, and at this point, it looks like that may be the case. At least, that's what Scott says, and I trust he knows from practice about whether Waiters has been sucking wind, etc..

It's way too early to go into panic mode, particularly given that it's been accurately pointed out that Irving came in out of shape and less than productive at the beginning of the season last year.

 

[daddywags]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

On the one hand, first impressions don't really bother me much with athletes. I've seen way too many guys in Ceveland sports history come in like gangbusters and fizzle out once the league got their number. Also, personal experiences throughout my life have taught me that making a poor first impression, or struggling a bit to make a positive impression, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some of the best outcomes in my life have started off really, really, poorly.

On the other hand, I had no doubt that Kyrie Irving was going to be a stud when I first saw him play. Same with a guy like Bernie Kosar once upon a time. I personally didn't pay much attention (well, didn't pay any attention) to Dion Waiters during the college season because he wasn't on my radar screen as someone the Cavs might draft. Watching a bit of the game last night, I came away with an "eh" feeling. He is obviously not in game shape and he seems to be just "floating" in the offense. Bring the ball up, throw the ball to someone and stand around. If the ball comes back to you, either throw it to someone else or try to make something happen one-on-one. Just very, very bad basketball being played.

I'm not worried about him; or at least no more worried than I was when he was first announced as our pick. Nothing wrong with having a bit of a chip on a guy's shoulder to prove first impressions wrong.

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

From a coaches perspective, it is all about teaching and nothing else. So Waiters is not firing on all cylinders physically, big surprise.

If anyone was going to struggle with disorganized basketball, you'd think it would be a big like Zeller who's used to being used within a system - but that's not the case. Instead it's the guy we drafted because we thought he could break down anyone in the league, dish, and bury J's.

Mostly... where's the effort? That's the part that's not excusable.

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Sure it does. An out of shape guy is going to look slower, lack burst, and make different decisions than a guy who is in shape. He'll take a low energy jumper rather than a high energy drive. He's going to be sluggish on defense, trying to catch his wind rather than hustling. And his tired legs will mean no lift on his jumper -- it's going to look bad. Now, maybe some of those problems will remain once he does get in shape, but as of right now, being out of shape can explain what is happening.

Well, it's certainly not "excusable" for a guy to come in out of shape to summer league, but nobody is arguing that it is. The question is whether you can fairly attribute his play to being out of shape, and at this point, it looks like that may be the case. At least, that's what Scott says, and I trust he knows from practice about whether Waiters has been sucking wind, etc..

It's way too early to go into panic mode, particularly given that it's been accurately pointed out that Irving came in out of shape and less than productive at the beginning of the season last year.

You're not describing tired legs, you're describing dead legs - and I just don't see how that's possible unless the coaching staff has been running these guys for 10 miles before the games.

When Irving came in out of shape last season, Scott didn't have a problem using him in short stretches to give him time to recover.

You guys make it sound like his muscles have atrophied and fallen off. He may be a far cry from peak conditioning, but if he can play, he should be able to play for at least short stretches.

 

[PosterTime]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I refuse to wear the homer glasses. So far this kid flat out sucks. There's no way to sugar coat it and pretend like he's played even remotely well. I'm hoping he explodes for 25 points tonight on a high shooting % to make me less skeptical.

He is playing against DLeague scrubs, rookies, and guys who will be back to working at the local Wal-Mart next week. This is the #4 overall pick in the NBA Draft we are talking about here folks. It would be less scary if someone like Brad Beal or MKG had a rough start because we actually know a decent amount about them as players. Waiters is an unknown player to me compared to other prospects. Waiters being picked at #4 was a head scratcher and will continue to be so until he PROVES otherwise. I'm frustrated and I'm allowed to be; feel free to remain optimistic but I'm fucking worried.

 

[mhi]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

if it was known he was going to be a project ... but that's not the bill of goods we were sold.....
Players can and do turn things around ... the question is whether we're talking days or years.

I always maintain that a top5 pick is too valuable to be used on a 'project'.

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

There are no (sic) expectations for summer ball. All expectations are for the regular season. Your trying to support your bias by irrevelance.

Actually, I have much lower expectations for the regular season because then Dion will have to try driving past, finishing, and getting his shot up .vs. NBA talent - not D leaguers, and other rookies. He may very well need time to adapt to NBA speed.

But there's no excuse for Dion not giving effort. Not given the focus we've put on avoiding players with question marks in that area.

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I always maintain that a top5 pick is too valuable to be used on a 'project'.

I have mixed feelings about that too, but that's why NBA GMs get paid the big bucks. If a guy like Drummond can realize his upside potential, then he's worth the risk. A lot of mediocre players get picked top-5 as well, and that's a pretty big risk in my book as well.

I know we weren't getting MKG (a guy who's always going to give 100% no matter the situation) when we took Waiters, and I know we didn't have him in for workouts and interviews. And I know he had attitude issues his freshman year. But I figured CG and gang had him vetted and made it clear what would be expected of him once we could bring him in to Cleveland.

The red flags are there waiving in front of our face. Dion didn't complain about how tired he was, or that Tuesday's game was on a back to back ... he said we'd see him play a lot better. Well, instead we got strike #2. Next!