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French Terror Attack

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You're right, I didn't clarify. I was referring to those outside of Europe. Not the Germanys and Denmarks (even though they have their own freedom of speech issues). You put Netanyahu and Abbas front in center for something like this and it becomes a parody. Obviously, you disagree.
 
You're right, I didn't clarify. I was referring to those outside of Europe. Not the Germanys and Denmarks (even though they have their own freedom of speech issues).

Cool. The problem is that we can't just snub Netanyahu and Abbas. We ended up snubbing all our other allies as well, and for a cause that was admirable.

You put Netanyahu and Abbas front in center for something like this and it becomes a parody. Obviously, you disagree.

Well, here's how I look at it. The first step in having countries start to recognize those rights is having them at least acknowledge them publicly. They may fall down in the execution, but I think it better than they take a public position in favor of those rights, even in theory, than do nothing at all. Change has to start somewhere. Maybe this is a small starting point.

Anytime you can get Abbas and Netanyahu marching for the same cause, in the same place, it can't be all bad, right?
 
I'm sorry but Netanyahu marching for anything relating to "peace" is a fucking joke.

Mahmud Abbas is also a joke.

Not speaking to anything other than those points, for clarity, but yeah Netanyahu is a monster.
 
Maybe the best explanation for the President not attending is the simplest. He believes that "the future must not belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam", so maybe he kind of thinks those Charlie Hebdo guys got what they deserved. He mouths condemnation of the attack because public opinion demanded it, but won't appear at a rally in support of the right to say such things.
 
Cool. The problem is that we can't just snub Netanyahu and Abbas. We ended up snubbing all our other allies as well, and for a cause that was admirable.



Well, here's how I look at it. The first step in having countries start to recognize those rights is having them at least acknowledge them publicly. They may fall down in the execution, but I think it better than they take a public position in favor of those rights, even in theory, than do nothing at all. Change has to start somewhere. Maybe this is a small starting point.

Anytime you can get Abbas and Netanyahu marching for the same cause, in the same place, it can't be all bad, right?

I'd argue that they've both been marching for the same cause for a while now, but I digress...

It's interesting that the terrorists in Paris succeeded in bringing about more cartoons of the prophet, and made it even more acceptable than ever to do so. Printed a record amount of copies of their new issue... yet no worldwide mass Muslim violence. The way folks talk in these threads you'd think think the entire Ummah would have been ready to pounce on this disrespect, and it wasn't an isolated group that was responsible for the violence.

Point won, Charlie. Freedom for bigotry!
 
It's interesting that the terrorists in Paris succeeded in bringing about more cartoons of the prophet, and made it even more acceptable than ever to do so. Printed a record amount of copies of their new issue... yet no worldwide mass Muslim violence. The way folks talk in these threads you'd think think the entire Ummah would have been ready to pounce on this disrespect, and it wasn't an isolated group that was responsible for the violence.

But violent murders committed by individuals are not the only concern of those who assert free speech rights. The credible threats of death/harm issued against those who "blaspheme" are also of legitimate concern given that such threats have been carried out in the past. Further, according to Wikipedia -- and there doesn't seem to be any reason to belief it's inaccurate --

As of 2011, all Islamic majority nations, worldwide, had criminal laws on blasphemy. Over 125 non-Muslim nations worldwide did not have any laws relating to blasphemy.[59][60] In Islamic nations, thousands of individuals have been arrested and punished for blasphemy of Islam.[61][62] Several Islamic nations have argued in the United Nations that blasphemy against Muhammad is unacceptable, and laws should be passed worldwide to place "limits on the freedom of expression."

So even if vigilante justice is not endorsed by a majority of Muslims, it seems that the belief that "blasphemy" should be punished by the Government is an opinion held by at least a significant minority of Muslims.

To me, attempts to limit blasphemy are no different than laws in Muslim nations that make "apostasy" illegal. The common thread is the failure to recognize that religious belief should be a matter of individual conscience. The recognition that other people have the right to hold whatever religious beliefs they choose, to freely convert to or from any religion, and to say whatever they wish about belief systems, including religion, is something I think must be accepted by people wanting to live in a modern society.

Point won, Charlie. Freedom for bigotry!

Yes, I see. Drawing a picture of Muhammed makes someone a bigot. Way to impose your religious beliefs on other people. Again, I'll point out the contrast to make the point clear. Judaism says that it is wrong to speak the Name of God. But they're not issuing death threats or calling for government suppression if non-Jews around the world choose to speak it anyway.
 
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But violent murders committed by individuals are not the only concern of those who assert free speech rights. The credible threats of death/harm issued against those who "blaspheme" are also of legitimate concern given that such threats have been carried out in the past. Further, according to Wikipedia -- and there doesn't seem to be any reason to belief it's inaccurate --

As of 2011, all Islamic majority nations, worldwide, had criminal laws on blasphemy. Over 125 non-Muslim nations worldwide did not have any laws relating to blasphemy.[59][60] In Islamic nations, thousands of individuals have been arrested and punished for blasphemy of Islam.[61][62] Several Islamic nations have argued in the United Nations that blasphemy against Muhammad is unacceptable, and laws should be passed worldwide to place "limits on the freedom of expression."

So even if vigilante justice is not endorsed by a majority of Muslims, it seems that the belief that "blasphemy" should be punished by the Government is an opinion held by at least a significant minority of Muslims.

I can't speak to what a majority or minority of Muslims "think" about blasphemy. Regardless of the laws in place in these governments, it's not exactly fair to put these circumstances on the individuals. It's no secret that most of these governments are not democracies, and that rules enforced by powerful leaders meant to oppress the majority are certainly a reality. This is actually my biggest problem with the Islamic world... the power in the highest levels on a local scale.

To me, attempts to limit blasphemy are no different than laws in Muslim nations that make "apostasy" illegal. The common thread is the failure to recognize that religious belief should be a matter of individual conscience. The recognition that other people have the right to hold whatever religious beliefs they choose, to freely convert to or from any religion, and to say whatever they wish about belief systems, including religion, is something I think must be accepted by people wanting to live in a modern society.

I agree.

Yes, I see. Drawing a picture of Muhammed makes someone a bigot. Way to impose your religious beliefs on other people. Again, I'll point out the contrast to make the point clear. Judaism says that it is wrong to speak the Name of God. But they're not issuing death threats or calling for government suppression if non-Jews around the world choose to speak it anyway.

Nah, this has been discussed already so I'm pretty sure you know what I was getting it. I don't think the cartoons should be illegal per se, but at the same time I don't think Charlie Hebdo is heroic. I'm looking at their whole catalogue, not just the prophet cartoons. The comic I posted earlier clearly illustrates this point.

My main point though was in response to this board's insistence at times that because some Muslims were violent, all Muslims are inherently violent and/or support the violence. Surprising then that this didn't kick off a full-blown war over cartoons.
 
Anyone remember the controversy over Piss Christ. Fortunately the death threats issued were never carried out.

640px-Piss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_%281987%29.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"In 1987, Serrano's Piss Christ was exhibited at the Stux Gallery in New York and was favorably received. The piece later caused a scandal when it was exhibited in 1989, with detractors, including United States Senators Al D'Amato and Jesse Helms, outraged that Serrano received $15,000 for the work, and $5,000 in 1986 from the taxpayer-fundedNational Endowment for the Arts. Serrano received death threats and hate mail, and he lost grants due to the controversy. Others alleged that the government funding of Piss Christ violated separation of church and state. The work was vandalized at the National Gallery of Victoria, Australia, and gallery officials reported receiving death threats in response to Piss Christ. Supporters argued that the controversy over Piss Christ is an issue of artistic freedom and freedom of speech.

Sister Wendy Beckett, an art critic and Catholic nun, stated in a television interview with Bill Moyers that she regarded the work as not blasphemous but a statement on "what we have done to Christ": that is, the way contemporary society has come to regard Christ and the values he represents.

During a retrospective of Serrano's work at the National Gallery of Victoria in 1997, the then Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell, sought an injunction from theSupreme Court of Victoria to restrain the National Gallery of Victoria from publicly displaying Piss Christ, which was not granted. Some days later, one patron attempted to remove the work from the gallery wall, and two teenagers later attacked it with a hammer. The director of the NGV cancelled the show, allegedly out of concern for a Rembrandt exhibition that was also on display at the time.

Piss Christ was included in "Down by Law", a "show within a show" on identity politics and disobedience that formed part of the 2006 Whitney Biennial. The British Channel 4 TV documentary Damned in the USA explored the controversy surrounding Piss Christ.

On April 17, 2011, a print of Piss Christ was vandalized "beyond repair" by Christian protesters while on display during the Je crois aux miracles (I believe in miracles) exhibition at the Collection Lambert, a contemporary art museum in Avignon, France. Serrano's photo The Church was similarly vandalized in the attack.

Beginning September 27, 2012, Piss Christ was on display at the Edward Tyler Nahem gallery in New York, at the Andres Serrano show "Body and Spirit." Religious groups and some lawmakers called for President Barack Obama to denounce the artwork, comparing it to the anti-Islamic film Innocence of Muslims that the White House had condemned earlier that month."

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It is great being an atheist. Nothing to commit blasphemy against.
 
I can't speak to what a majority or minority of Muslims "think" about blasphemy. Regardless of the laws in place in these governments, it's not exactly fair to put these circumstances on the individuals.

It certainly isn't fair to claim that each individual Muslim believes the same thing, but then, nobody is claiming that to the case, but all the available evidence suggests that, at least, those laws do not reflect fringe opinion held only by a tiny minority. Pew Research has conducted some pretty wide-ranging polling of the world's Muslims. Here's one.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

It's long, but you can see that in almost every majority Muslim nation, support for the death penalty for adults who want to leave Islam is at least 20%, going all the way up to 80% in places like Egypt. There is similar sentiment for not only Sharia law being the law of the land, but Sharia law being applied to both Muslims and non-Muslims. You can also come up with fun facts like the percentage of Muslims who believe it is their duty to try to convert non-believers, with the percentage who believe that proselytizing by non-Muslims and conversation of Muslims to other religions is illegal. It's just a horrible, horrible double-standard.

There's plenty of other stuff out there regarding blasphemy issues. Here's a wiki article on Islam and Blasphemy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy

A very good recent article by Fareed Zakaria on blasphemy and the prevelance of anti-blasphemt laws/attacks in the Muslim world:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...c14e38-9770-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html

What's particularly disturbing is that those who claim the right to prevent/punish blasphemy extend that beyond the bounds of their own country. Remember the worldwide protests by those angry about the "Benghazi video"? Some clown in his basement in the U.S. makes a video that insults Muhammed, and people on different continents riot? Da fuq???

Point is, it isn't just a fringe, and isn't something the rest of the world can just ignore.

It's no secret that most of these governments are not democracies, and that rules enforced by powerful leaders meant to oppress the majority are certainly a reality. This is actually my biggest problem with the Islamic world... the power in the highest levels on a local scale.

I don't think there's a credible case to be made that most such laws are enacted in defiance of a majority population that believes it should be perfectly legal to blaspheme or commit apostasy. Heck, vigilante actions by the people themselves seem a very common method of "enforcement." For example....

http://98.139.21.31/search/srpcache...5Tp&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=HcqHj4faUol88SIH2tadnQ--Just do a search for "Muslim riot blasphemy", and see what you get. It's a problem.

Nah, this has been discussed already so I'm pretty sure you know what I was getting it. I don't think the cartoons should be illegal per se, but at the same time I don't think Charlie Hebdo is heroic. I'm looking at their whole catalogue, not just the prophet cartoons.

I think Charlie Hebdo is repulsive. They hate all religions in the way that all committed Marxists do. Not as an issue of race, but in the "opiate of the masses/irrationality" sense of a system of belief or thought. And while I abhor their tone, harsh criticism of religion should be a legit subject for public debate.

My main point though was in response to this board's insistence at times that because some Muslims were violent, all Muslims are inherently violent and/or support the violence.

Has anyone here actually made that argument? Maybe I missed it, but I don't think so. It's blindingly obvious that there are a great many Muslims who don't believe that. The problem is that the number who do is way beyond being just an insignificant fringe.
 
Rather than ranting on senselessly (which I am undoubtedly am/was guilty of), I want to raise some questions for debate:

Assimilation or acculturation? Does the immigrant population attempt to assimilate? Or should there be an expected process of acculturation where both cultures change/adapt to each other?

How does the dominant culture preserve its culture? To what extent do they have a "right" to do so given a specific history with a minority group? (I use the term "right" loosely here.) I get that a group wants to preserve its culture, but can it do so by discrimination against minority immigrant population? To answer this, one first needs to understand how and why the immigrants came to the country. It involves understanding relations between countries. I don't think that the "right" is absolute. How can a country provide a place for minorities, whereby the minorities are not blatantly marginalized?

What role does marginalization play in fomenting civil unrest? Does it make youths more susceptible to becoming radicalized? Not to condone violence (I find what happened in France abhorrent, as well as other such acts elsewhere in the world), but to what degree is the majority culpable? One risks blaming the victim here--but if to prevent such occurrences from happening again, one needs to understand the underlying causes (an understanding that goes beyond "They are savages", "It is their religion", both of which go beyond simple to being simplistic and naive).

----
Also, a bit dated article, but an interesting and relevant read nonetheless. A bit damning of French policies.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld...h-unrest-and-muslim-integration-in-wikileaks/

Scathing U.S. view of French unrest and Muslim integration in WikiLeaks
By Tom Heneghan

December 2, 2010
burbs-1.jpg


(Photo: Local youths watch firemen extinguish burning vehicles during clashes in the Paris suburb of Aulnay sur Bois, early November 3, 2005/Victor Tonelli)
The U.S. embassy in Paris turns out to be one of the sharpest critics of France’s track record in integrating its Muslim minority. Thanks to WikiLeaks, we now have its unvarnished view of the 2005 unrest in the poor suburbs of Paris and other large cities. It is a scathing indictment that goes beyond even what many of the government’s domestic critics at the time were saying. It may also go beyond most if not all of the criticisms of domestic policy found in cables from other European capitals (has anyone found anything more devastating elsewhere?). Here is our overall news report on the cables. Some excerpts from the key cables are copied below.

For FaithWorld, it’s especially interesting to see what the embassy says about “what the violence is not”.Back in those days, some American media were throwing around terms like “Paris intifada” and “Muslim riots” as if Huntington’s “clash of civilisations” had reached the outlying stations of the Paris Metro network. The cables are clearly written to refute that view. Yes, many of the rioters came from a Muslim background, but this was a socio-economic protest by a growing underclass, as we have argued in earlier posts such as “Smoke without fire – there was no ‘Paris intifada’ in 2005″ and “Why we don’t call them ‘Muslim riots’ in Paris suburbs.”

If religion had to be brought into the issue, it would have to be mentioned as an underlying cultural background on both sides — something that French politicians and editorialists didn’t do and don’t like. But this cable did do that in one of its most striking quotes — “The real problem is the failure of white and Christian France to view their darker, Muslim compatriots as real citizens.” As Le Monde put it: “The Americans’ logic has never been explained in such transparent fashion.”

It’s interesting to see how the embassy links the social exclusion of the Muslim minority now with possible radicalisation of some Muslims in the future. The first of our three excerpts examines the security issue in August 2005, months before the banlieues (suburbs) erupted in protest.The second and third analyse the protests themselves.

Italics are our own, to highlight the main points in these excerpts:

PUTTING OUT BRUSHFIRES: FRANCE AND ISLAMIC EXTREMISM — August 17, 2005

Although confident with its “offensive” C/T strategy, France still struggles with integration
———-
9. (U) … Louis Caprioli, former head of the DST’s counter-terrorism bureau (the DST is France’s internal security service), said the French strategy emphasizes total cooperation between the security/police services and the specialized counter-terrorism judiciary. This allows for constant surveillance of suspects and a focus on maximum disturbance of Islamic extremists, hence the “offensive” nature of the strategy.

Alain Chouet, former head of the DGSE (France’s external intelligence service), added that the presence of the RG throughout French territory allows for “permanent surveillance and penetration of problematic communities.” Furthermore, said Chouet, “It is hard to imagine the Anglo-Saxon countries imitating our harassment tactics, which sometimes take place without any real proof of wrongdoing.”

11. (SBU) Poloffs recently visited the northern Paris suburb of La Courneuve, which has recently become a living metaphor for violence and Islamic extremism in France… La Courneuve now features many large HLM (low-income housing projects). The streets are relatively wide and empty, with little street-level commerce aside from government services and larger supermarkets. No one background dominated and we saw no visible signs of an Islamic presence (we passed only one synagogue and no mosques). The suburb did not feel dangerous; instead it seemed more bleak and deserted than anything else… Its appearance confirmed what statistics report: the overwhelming majority of Muslims in France (whether from Africa, the Maghreb, or the newly converted) are moderate. The problem lies with the one or two apartments that harbour Islamic extremists hidden within the tens of thousands that do not.

12. (C) Comment: As is widely recognized, the GOF wields a muscular and effective counter-terrorism apparatus that identifies potential terrorists and thwarts potential terrorist operations. Although there is always room for improvement, the GOF appears to have done what it can in the short- and medium-term to combat Islamic extremism. Over the long-term, however, much work needs to be done.

(Image: La Courneuve marked in red, north of central Paris outlined by the circle in the middle of this map of the Greater Paris area)
France does not only have an integration/immigration problem; it must also work to give a place to Muslims in the French identity. Despite claims that its commitment to secularism nullifies prejudice against any religion, it is an open secret that historically Catholic France has heretofore failed to muster sufficient will and understanding to truly accept Muslims as French citizens. Although Islamic extremism may never completely disappear from France, acceptance of Muslims as full, participating members of French society will go a long way to minimizing its reach.

THE FRENCH INTEGRATION MODEL: GOING UP IN SMOKE? — November 9, 2005

What the Violence is Not
———-
3. (C) The destruction of both public and private property has been enormous and often self-defeating, as the youths have targeted their own schools and gyms or their neighbors’ vehicles. But it has fallen short of full-scale riots…

4. (C) Nor has the unrest taken on the tone of an intifada, despite the fact that a large portion of those responsible for the violence are of Muslim background. In fact, Muslim groups have played positive roles in trying to quell the violence.

5. (C) For the moment, the unrest is not viewed as specifically Muslim The issue is seen as a problem of disaffected ethnic minorities, not a local playing out of a clash of civilizations between Muslims and the West…

The French “Way” Questioned
———-
6. (C) The recent upheaval has raised many questions within France about its “unitary” (as opposed to multicultural) integration model, as well as the social inequalities and racism that exist in French society… It is clear that the unrest playing out throughout France today is the result of decades of neglect by governments of both the left and right…

7. (C) …The real problem is the failure of white and Christian France to view their darker, Muslim compatriots as real citizens. The cumulative effect has been the creation of a generation of young males lacking parental control and unequipped to secure and hold a job, even if they could break through the formidable barriers of prejudice faced by young Arabs and young blacks in particular.

9. (C) … At present, the immigrant community is vastly underrepresented in all parties and barely represented
at all in official positions, from the mayoral through parliamentary and ministerial ranks in the French political
spectrum.

———-

11. (C) …The youths perpetrating the violence and vandalism — and the criminal groups that in some cases are manipulating them — are present in every poor suburb, and no amount of policing will preventively keep them completely in check. While responsible leaders across the political spectrum agree that France must do more to integrate its more recent immigrants, agreeing is not the same as doing. The recent wave of unrest has publicly and embarrassingly exposed France’s deep social inequalities, reminding the broader public of the persistence of France’s large, probably growing underclass

12. (C) … It will also be a challenge to change deeply ingrained negative attitudes towards non-white immigrants. However, not to make the effort would squander a crucial opportunity to significantly enhance the well-being and prospects of a disaffected Muslim underclass before it becomes politically radicalized.

ANALYZING THE CIVIL UNREST — THE ISLAMIC FACTOR

No direct links to Islamic extremism
———-

2. (C) … Christophe Chaboud, head of the Ministry of Interior’s counter-terrorism coordination body (known by its French acronym – UCLAT), categorically reconfirmed to PolOff on November 15, “we (the GoF) have not found any link between Islamic extremists and those fomenting the unrest. He acknowledged that police and internal intelligence organizations have received “a few” signs that some Islamic extremists have participated in the violence. That said, he believed that they were acting as individuals and not as members of a coordinated, Islamic group.

Fears of extremist and criminal exploitation
———-

3. (C) Chaboud reported that GoF monitoring of websites and blogs (in France and abroad) nonetheless reveals that extremists are trying to exploit the unrest to their advantage, claiming (for example) that it results from GOF attempts to control and muzzle Islam in France…

———-

15. (SBU) The gangs of underclass youths who are the perpetrators of the car burnings and urban violence in France are not Islamists, nor are they at all motivated by religion. It is highly misleading to characterize them — as is often done in media coverage — as “insurgent” and “Muslim” youths. The anger felt by these youths stems from how they are trapped and without a future — facing pervasive racial prejudice, and without the skills and education needed to get-a-life of employment and conventional respect.

16. (SBU) That said, the dominant religion in France’s low-income housing projects affected by the recent violence is Islam, and there are those intent on “saving” these communities from their social ills by re-founding them on religious, as opposed to secular, principles, in effect filling the vacuum where French republican values have failed to take root. Whether or not Islamic organizations and fundamentalist proselytizing will make significant inroads among the inhabitants of France’s immigrant suburbs of course depends on the effectiveness of the GOF’s social programs and the willingness of French society at large to face up to its pervasive prejudices against Blacks and Arabs.
 
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Anyone remember the controversy over Piss Christ. Fortunately the death threats issued were never carried out.

Well, yeah. That's kind of the point. You can never completely prevent a few fringies from making threats. Members of Congress get death threats all the time. But that's not what's going on here, because we didn't have Billy Graham or Ernest Angely publicly urging their followers to kill Serrano, or mass marches calling for his death, etc. Unfortunately, there were fatwas issued against Salman Rushdie, Van Gogh was actually murdered, and there are tons of articles out there recounting the punishments -- government or vigilante -- meted out to those who've blasphemed Mohammed or Islam. The riots in Cairo and elsewhere over that video. The belief that non-believers should be prohibited from blaspheming Islam or Muhammed is mainstream, even if the belief that killing is the proper sanction is less common.

"In 1987, Serrano's Piss Christ was exhibited at the Stux Gallery in New York and was favorably received. The piece later caused a scandal when it was exhibited in 1989, with detractors, including United States Senators Al D'Amato and Jesse Helms, outraged that Serrano received $15,000 for the work, and $5,000 in 1986 from the taxpayer-fundedNational Endowment for the Arts.

Yeah, I remember when all that wend down, and the real outrage there was the government grants. Too bad they didn't kill the NEA period. Oh well.... If there were death threats made, they weren't public.

It is great being an atheist. Nothing to commit blasphemy against.

It's entirely possible to be a person of religion and also not get bent out of shape when someone who doesn't share that belief pisses on (literally or otherwise) your religion.

One of the interesting things in the Zakaria article was his claim that the Koran itself doesn't forbid drawing pictures of Muhammed, and that prohibition comes from the haditha. He also points out that Leviticus actually does expressly state that anyone who blasphemes God should be put to death. Yet, there isn't the cry for "death" from Jews whenever someone does that.

I suppose that's really the hope. The Old Testament in particular is a rather bloody thing, and yet, most believers over time have managed to move away from literal or other interpretations that would endorse violence. And that's why I don't personally believe that Islam is inherently dangerous or violent, because like any religion, it can be reinterpreted/adapted to a more modern world.
 
Rather than ranting on senselessly (which I am undoubtedly am/was guilty of), I want to raise some questions for debate:

Assimilation or acculturation? Does the immigrant population attempt to assimilate? Or should there be an expected process of acculturation where both cultures change/adapt to each other?

How does the dominant culture preserve its culture? To what extent do they have a "right" to do so given a specific history with a minority group? (I use the term "right" loosely here.) I get that a group wants to preserve its culture, but can it do so by discrimination against minority immigrant population? To answer this, one first needs to understand how and why the immigrants came to the country. It involves understanding relations between countries. I don't think that the "right" is absolute. How can a country provide a place for minorities, whereby the minorities are not blatantly marginalized?

What role does marginalization play in fomenting civil unrest? Does it make youths more susceptible to becoming radicalized? Not to condone violence (I find what happened in France abhorrent, as well as other such acts elsewhere in the world), but to what degree is the majority culpable? One risks blaming the victim here--but if to prevent such occurrences from happening again, one needs to understand the underlying causes (an understanding that goes beyond "They are savages", "It is their religion", both of which go beyond simple to being simplistic and naive).

----
Also, a bit dated article, but an interesting and relevant read nonetheless.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/12/02/scathing-u-s-view-of-french-unrest-and-muslim-integration-in-wikileaks/

It's an interesting point. I'd say that I don't see anything inherently wrong with preferring one culture over another, and wanting to maintain that culture. In fact, I believe that culture is really the only thing that matters -- the particular racial/ethnic genes of those who practice it do not. Although, the obvious caveat is that I don't believe that violence to enforce adherence to a particular culture is justified either.

But I do prefer some cultures to others, with some aspects of culture obviously being of more significance than others. I'm not advocated sameness, but I see the virtue of cultural compatibility. And I don't see anything wrong with taking that into account in immigration policies, either.

I'll also think that some degree of assimilation is almost always to be preferred, and that too-rapid/excessive immigration from a particular nation or different culture can make assimilation much more difficult, because the immigrants themselves see less of a need to assimilate, so you get a rather nasty cycle of immigrants deliberately isolating themselves, leading to more of a sense of "other" on the part of the natives, etc. etc.

Seems France has hit that point.
 
I'd say that I don't see anything inherently wrong with preferring one culture over another, and wanting to maintain that culture. In fact, I believe that culture is really the only thing that matters -- the particular racial/ethnic genes of those who practice it do not.

This is how I was taught. Back in college, I opted to take a class focusing on culture, norms, power structure, government/politics, religion, etc.. I knew little about the region and decided to spend my semester on Turkey (choice out of: Mexico, Turkey, China & India). Breaking it down to culture has always been the correct prism to view thru, to me. I'm sure it's not everyone's opinion, but I think you nailed it.
 

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