gourimoko
Fighting the good fight!
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It's a matter of scale. It's like drawing equivalence between a glass of water and a lake. You may want to draw absolute comparisons such as this, but again, you're being obviously disingenuous. Unfortunately as you always seem to do, and even more to the point, you are being intellectually dishonest because you are ignoring the aforementioned comparison made between bigotry towards Jews which is not only frowned upon but illegal in Europe and bigotry towards Muslims.
To answer the larger question, negative portrayal of an entire people based on their religious beliefs is indeed bigoted and can in fact be considered a form of racism - just in the same way that antisemitism is very often considered a form racism.
When people portray Christians as bible-thumping idiots for their beliefs, and everyone laughs at that, yes that is discriminatory, yes that is prejudiced, yes that is bigoted.
Mocking 1.2 billion people? How can you mock 1.2 billion people, rationally, and have anything positive or constructive come of that?
Criticism is one thing. Charlie Hebdo wasn't making any attempt at constructive criticism. You yourself even said you had no clue as to who or what they were prior to this event. Now you carry water for their cause?
That's a lie, I answered it numerous times in this thread already.
Do you actually think I want speech limited, in anyway whatsoever? Or is that a strawman... Again, you're defending Charlie Hebdo's right to publish -- but so am I. I simply stated that I'm not surprised someone took action against them. I'm also stating that they were a racist and bigoted publication. One doesn't negate, mitigate or justify the other -- I've already said this, three times.
If you go back to the beginning of the thread, I started out using the term "bigotry" and "prejudice." However, Charlie Hebdo is racist for different reasons other than trashing Islam and I made clear upthread.
It can???
And nice try with "I perfectly well know.." In fact, I've explained this to you before in another thread, when you made the same asinine claim that the Jewish people had a claim to the land of Israel because were ethnic descendants of those who lived there historically.
This point also ignores that there are over a million Jews who are not of European descent. It also attempts to rewrite history as to who is an ethnic Jew and who is a descendent of Europeans.
"Jew" is a religious connotation. And that's my point. It cannot be used to accurately describe any particular race of people as there is no racial majority within the group of Ashkenazi Jews who make up 75% of the Jewish population.
You're not even reading my posts.
I touched on this in my last post, you know, the one you're responding to? The caricature posted was of a European, and has a European origin. Europeans aren't semitic. German and French Jews aren't semitic. They are not "ethnically" Jewish, they are Jews by virtual of their religion. Yet mocking them would undoubtedly evoke a response that one was being racist.
"Dirty Jew" is considered racist, but "Muslim savage" is not. Again, as was pointed out by Surmac both people may actually be White. Large portions of Algerian Muslims are in fact White caucasian people (Berbers).
Again, I made this point up-thread and I also made the point that if you want to argue terms and semantics I'm not particularly interested... I gave the term "antisemitism" as a reason that I'm not interested as it's a misnomer.
Why? Again, most of the time anti-Jewish sentiment is not actually "antisemitic" at all. For example, an Arab who hates Jews is not likely to be an "antisemite." In fact, by your definition (which is absurd), an Arab who hates Jews but not Arabs cannot be considered a racist.
Confused? I bet... it's double-think. The concept that Jews are a "race" when 75% of the world's Jewish population is "White," a race that for all intents and purposes doesn't really exist. So if someone hates Jews, do they hate Whites? Are neo-Nazis self-hating White people? Again, it's semantics...
It's such an asinine proposition -- but one that is used everyday. However, you, just now, made the same asinine claim that I should know that "obviously" Jews are a race of people. It's pure ignorance.
There is a body of "Jewish people." But they are not remotely racially or ethnically homogeneous by any reasonable definition.
Concisely: Jews are not a race. Hebrew is not synonymous with Jewish. The Hebrews are a race of people. There are Muslim Hebrews just as there are Arab Jews. Arab and Hebrew are races of people; in fact, they are very closely related people (semitic people). Islam and Judaism are religions.
Again, to say "dirty, filthy Jew" is racist by all accounts. But to say "savage terrorist Muslim" is something (greatly) less than racist, acceptable even.
Ahh... hahaha... See what you did there?
"Culturally..." Indeed.. So now it's racism because that would be mocking of Jewish culture. But mocking Islamic culture is okay?
What ethnic group?
A client that I work with everyday is German. He just came home from Germany.
But.. he's Jewish..
What's his "ethnic group?"
As do many Arabs.... But the point still stands, they would still be members of this "ethnic/cultural" world you are describing. For example, I would still be in that group, even though I am not Muslim.
I am offended by cartoons depicting Muhammad. I am not Muslim.
Why? Because I know that the authors are stoking anti-Muslim sentiment and such a sentiment is based usually on nothing more than intolerance and bigotry.
While you ignore the specific secular/ethnic sense of being an Arab. As an Arab you realize that the vast majority of your people are Muslims, whether you are one or not. Just as if you are Jewish, yet an atheist, you still identify with the Jewish faith, heritage and culture.
I am a Christian Arab, yet I identify with Muslim Arabs. Whereas someone I know quite well is a Jew, again, a German Jew, and an atheist. He identifies with the Jewish people, their faith, and culture. Yet he is a White man of German ancestry. He could get up one day and erase his Jewish heritage by simply changing his name; yet he doesn't.
Being Jewish, just like being Muslim, is a choice, it's a religion. There is no test that can identify a French Jew, genetically, from a French Catholic. Sure there are some large segments of Eastern European people who are predominantly Jewish and have identifiable genetic characteristics - but that doesn't account for anywhere near a majority of Jewish people.
It is bigoted and prejudiced, yes. I hate it when atheists mock Christians, I think it's disgusting.
But I'm not saying it is a conclusive authority -- that'd be fallacious. Instead, what I did was demonstrate that your point regarding how outlandish it might be to consider Charlie Hebdo a "racist" and "prejudiced" publication was not only over-the-top but representative of a very small minority prior to the attacks in France.
Prior to "Je Suis Charlie," many well known news organizations regarded Charlie Hebdo as a racist rag... That was my point.
Which is precisely why I said I didn't want to debate the topic because it would be yet another circular argument from you.
This is because you do not understand the definition of discrimination and intolerance in modern society.
--quotes--
Fox News on a campaign of anti-Muslim bigotry
Steve Emerson, a supposed “expert” on Islamic radicalism, appearing on Fox News over the weekend. The network has been putting him on air for days now, giving him a podium from which to warn America that Muslim immigrants have now seized control of large swaths of Europe where the local and national governments have forfeited sovereignty. “It’s too late for Europe … Europe is finished,” Emerson has repeatedly told Fox viewers, with the clear implication that America might be next.
As a shocked Sean Hannity put Emerson’s message during an interview last week:
“No non-Muslims. No police, no fire. Their own court system. So basically, these countries have allowed Muslims to take over parts of their country!”
Yet none of it’s true.
In the clip above, for example, Emerson tells us that the city of Birmingham, England’s second largest city, is now totally Muslim, and that non-Muslims don’t even dare venture into the city anymore. He also tells us that in “no-go zones” in parts of London, Muslim police now beat and seriously injure anyone who doesn’t abide by radical Muslim dress codes.
--quote--
"Bigotry, the intolerance, fear, and hatred of those different from ourselves is still a far too common occurrence in the world today. Bigotry is almost universally considered wrong because it robs others of their rights as human beings through discrimination and persecution. Here in the United States when we think of bigotry, we tend to think of it in terms of ethnicity, and surely bigotry against those not of European origin is still the most common form of bigotry to be found in the United States. Bigotry can take other forms however, and one can be bigoted against others because of their religion, culture, and sex as well as their ethnicity.
Indeed, religious bigotry may well have been the most common form of bigotry for much of Europe's history. Most of us are familiar with the persecution of Christians in ancient Rome, in which they were fed to the lions in the Coliseum and even blamed for the burning of Rome. During the Middle Ages the Jews were persecuted to no end, not just because they were another ethnic group, but another religion as well. Religious bigotry still exists in the world today and one need look no further than Bosnia. In so far as ethnicity goes, there are often few physical differences between a Serb and a Bosnian and they pretty much speak the same language. They share a common origin and one would not be able tell the difference from a Serb and a Bosnian on the street outside of the mode of dress. The only real difference is religion, and due to religious bigotry they are willing to kill each other. The same is true of Ireland, Palestine, and even the United States. One need not be of a minority race to be a victim of religious bigotry."
--quote--
Bigotry is a state of mind where a person strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.[1] Some examples include personal beliefs, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics.
Read above to see how silly this is...
