Jon Heyman: Biogenesis penalties could be handed down w/in 10 gms

[AZ_]

I don't disagree with your thoughts on Selig, but I wouldn't exactly point to him for the actions of A-Rod throughout not only this process but perhaps the majority of his career as well.

 

[7foot3]

I don't disagree with your thoughts on Selig, but I wouldn't exactly point to him for the actions of A-Rod throughout not only this process but perhaps the majority of his career as well.

The actions of A-Rod? Defending himself as vehemently as he could? Should he not do that? Yeah, hes a primadonna and probably a jerk, but none of that means he should have gotten railroaded like he did. Hes a pretty good dude compared to Selig, who is the narcissistic megalomaniac in this whole thing. Its amazing that A-rod is taking all the bad press and not the guy who bought off a drug dealers testimony, and ripped the JDA apart simply out of spite.

 

[AZ_]

The actions of A-Rod? Defending himself as vehemently as he could? Should he not do that? Yeah, hes a primadonna and probably a jerk, but none of that means he should have gotten railroaded like he did. Hes a pretty good dude compared to Selig, who is the narcissistic megalomaniac in this whole thing. Its amazing that A-rod is taking all the bad press and not the guy who bought off a drug dealers testimony, and ripped the JDA apart simply out of spite.

Blatantly lying, was more where I was going with that.

I'm simply not going to compare the culpability or fault between A-Rod and Selig, both are guilty as sin here. And yes, I share your level of annoyance that Selig is being held above reproach within this whole situation.

Selig's culpability in all of this makes me feel absolutely no different about A-Rod, who relied on and protected himself with the system he then tried to sue instead of admitting his own obvious guilt.

 

[7foot3]

Blatantly lying, was more where I was going with that.

I'm simply not going to compare the culpability or fault between A-Rod and Selig, both are guilty as sin here. And yes, I share your level of annoyance that Selig is being held above reproach within this whole situation.

Selig's culpability in all of this makes me feel absolutely no different about A-Rod, who relied on and protected himself with the system he then tried to sue instead of admitting his own obvious guilt.

If Rodriguez was the only one bending the truth in this matter, I could care that he was liar. When seemingly all sides pass misinformation for PR purposes, I'm not going to pick out just one to vilify.

And Rodriguez suing was his only legal play to defend himself against a punishment that was clearly out of line with what was established by the agreed-upon JDA. It's not much of a surprise that it was spun completely differently by people who aren't familiar with the CBA or JDA, a group which seemingly includes the players themselves, who not only didn't realize that he had to sue the MLBPA, but that they couldn't just kick A-Rod out either. Maybe the players should start reading the legal documents they've agree to before they open their mouths. It's also funny to see the MLBPA play the victim in regards to the suit considering they badly they left him hang out to dry in all the events leading up to this.

 

[AZ_]

If Rodriguez was the only one bending the truth in this matter, I could care that he was liar. When seemingly all sides pass misinformation for PR purposes, I'm not going to pick out just one to vilify.

And Rodriguez suing was his only legal play to defend himself against a punishment that was clearly out of line with what was established by the agreed-upon JDA. It's not much of a surprise that it was spun completely differently by people who aren't familiar with the CBA or JDA, a group which seemingly includes the players themselves, who not only didn't realize that he had to sue the MLBPA, but that they couldn't just kick A-Rod out either. Maybe the players should start reading the legal documents they've agree to before they open their mouths. It's also funny to see the MLBPA play the victim in regards to the suit considering they badly they left him hang out to dry in all the events leading up to this.

Bending the truth? That's a pretty gentle explanation of what Alex was doing throughout this process.

His suit against the players union had little to do with the length of the suspension, instead centering around the ethics of the investigation and his "lack of defense" supplied by the union, which was ridiculous given that they did exactly what they've done for every other player in the league.

The union did what they could, A-Rod was simply angry that they didn't give in to his ridiculous demands for the same circus like maneuvering around the process and whining that the arbitrator wasn't partial because he didn't buy his story.

Alex was caught red-handed, and Selig's willful ignorance to the steroid problems aside, I'm simply not going to blame A-Rod any less for what he did.

 

[7foot3]

Bending the truth? That's a pretty gentle explanation of what Alex was doing throughout this process.

His suit against the players union had little to do with the length of the suspension, instead centering around the ethics of the investigation and his "lack of defense" supplied by the union, which was ridiculous given that they did exactly what they've done for every other player in the league.

The union did what they could, A-Rod was simply angry that they didn't give in to his ridiculous demands for the same circus like maneuvering around the process and whining that the arbitrator wasn't partial because he didn't buy his story.

Alex was caught red-handed, and Selig's willful ignorance to the steroid problems aside, I'm simply not going to blame A-Rod any less for what he did.

You can use whatever term you like, neither side could possibly be called honest. Somehow picking one side to attack in that regard is ludicrous and woefully biased. As is the portrayal that Rodriguez made this a circus. Have you read what MLB went through to gain Bosch's testimony and the necessary documents?

His suit against the MLBPA was simply a requirement of the Labor Relations Management Act, Section 301. At that point, he couldn't move forward without "stat[ing] a prerequisite claim of breach of their union’s duty of fair representation". And considering that the players wanted to kick Rodriguez out, it doesn't seem too far stretched that he wasn't actually provided with an adequate defense.

"The union did what they could". That is laughable. There's no other way to put it. The same union that went to bat time and time again for Steve Howe, who overturned his banning from the game, could only throw up their hands and go "oh well" when Rodriguez was threatened with a ban? Bullshit, and you know it.

 

[AZ_]

You can use whatever term you like, neither side could possibly be called honest. Somehow picking one side to attack in that regard is ludicrous and woefully biased. As is the portrayal that Rodriguez made this a circus. Have you read what MLB went through to gain Bosch's testimony and the necessary documents?

His suit against the MLBPA was simply a requirement of the Labor Relations Management Act, Section 301. At that point, he couldn't move forward without "stat[ing] a prerequisite claim of breach of their union’s duty of fair representation". And considering that the players wanted to kick Rodriguez out, it doesn't seem too far stretched that he wasn't actually provided with an adequate defense.

"The union did what they could". That is laughable. There's no other way to put it. The same union that went to bat time and time again for Steve Howe, who overturned his banning from the game, could only throw up their hands and go "oh well" when Rodriguez was threatened with a ban? Bullshit, and you know it.

Allegedly went through.

Are you really trying to claim this theatrical appeal by Rodriguez and this slimeball lawyer was anything short of a mockery?

Why is he all of a sudden dropping this case? Why did he reach out to Rob Manfred in an effort to come back to the pack which has so egregiously misguided him and did nothing to support him?

 

[7foot3]

Allegedly went through.

Are you really trying to claim this theatrical appeal by Rodriguez and this slimeball lawyer was anything short of a mockery?

Why is he all of a sudden dropping this case? Why did he reach out to Rob Manfred in an effort to come back to the pack which has so egregiously misguided him and did nothing to support him?

So now that we're talking about the dirty things MLB did, and not the dirty things Rodriguez did, we're going to require the term "allegedly"? Guffaw.

I think every single part of the process was a mockery. When you're going up against a team that is able to use 60 Minutes as a puff piece, I don't see how you avoid getting into the theatrics. Sure, it would have been nice if everyone could have taken the high road. I still don't see why you're singling out just one party for not doing so.

In regards to him dropping the case, probably because, as he pointed out months ago, he was never given a chance to win. And it's worth noting that the rule he dismissed his case under allows him to re-file at any time he sees fit.

And the source that talks about him reaching out to Manfred also said "It was a question of either becoming Pete Rose or Ryan Braun,'' which is just more laughable bullshit, clearly coming from one very biased side (MLB of course). MLB has been trying to make Rodriguez the new Rose and is just offering spin to explain why they couldn't actually do so. People will actually believe that if Rodriguez didn't offer an olive branch, that he'd somehow be in for more punishment? Are we really supposed to be that dumb?

 

[AZ_]

I say allegedly because those claims against MLB for buying evidence were made by Rodriguez and his attorneys and were never proven one way or the other.

Given the utter lack of credibility A-Rod had earned for himself through constant denials and flat out lying despite relatively bulletproof evidence against him leaves those allegations MORE than in doubt, IMO.

Baseball has more than enough to answer for in it's complicity in baseball's drug problem, but Alex Rodriguez's case does not warrant such frustration IMO.

What more should the union have done when the evidence against said player was unwinnable?

 

[7foot3]

I say allegedly because those claims against MLB for buying evidence were made by Rodriguez and his attorneys and were never proven one way or the other.

Given the utter lack of credibility A-Rod had earned for himself through constant denials and flat out lying despite relatively bulletproof evidence against him leaves those allegations MORE than in doubt, IMO.

Baseball has more than enough to answer for in it's complicity in baseball's drug problem, but Alex Rodriguez's case does not warrant such frustration IMO.

What more should the union have done when the evidence against said player was unwinnable?

MLB has long admitted that they bought evidence. Manfred acknowledged it himself. But the bought testimony of a drug dealer is what should be considered bulletproof? Sigh.

The union could have started by pointing out that both the 211 game suspension Selig seeked, and the 162 game suspension that Rodriguez received were completely out of line with what the JDA says, regardless of how unwinnable the case was for Rodriguez. A big part of the JDA was the clear language on the punishments for drug abuse, specifically that 50-100-lifetime schedule. That's been torn to shreds, and is pretty much now at the whim of the commissioner. And that commissioner is still the guy who was a labor-hawk who was in deep when it came to collusion, unfair labor practices, and contraction threats. Selig has been trying to pry money back from the players for a long time now. I hope the union knows what they're doing hitching their wagon to him, but it sure doesn't look like they do.

 

[Derek]

I am baffled by the existence of an A-Rod apologist

 

[AZ_]

MLB has long admitted that they bought evidence. Manfred acknowledged it himself. But the bought testimony of a drug dealer is what should be considered bulletproof? Sigh.

The union could have started by pointing out that both the 211 game suspension Selig seeked, and the 162 game suspension that Rodriguez received were completely out of line with what the JDA says, regardless of how unwinnable the case was for Rodriguez. A big part of the JDA was the clear language on the punishments for drug abuse, specifically that 50-100-lifetime schedule. That's been torn to shreds, and is pretty much now at the whim of the commissioner. And that commissioner is still the guy who was a labor-hawk who was in deep when it came to collusion, unfair labor practices, and contraction threats. Selig has been trying to pry money back from the players for a long time now. I hope the union knows what they're doing hitching their wagon to him, but it sure doesn't look like they do.

Drug dealers turn states witness all the time, safe to assume you're fighting the good fight for those who've been put away because of their testimony?

I don't see anyone in A-Rod's camp or otherwise making ANY effort to bring substantive challenges to his testimony, by the way.

Moreover, it was the MLBPA that filed the appeal on behalf of Alex to get the suspension reduced in the first place.

We've never seen such an egregious disregard for the JDA by the player, but we're supposed to take pity on him because the unprecedented punishment fit the unprecedented crime?

Color me unmoved...

 

[7foot3]

I am baffled by the existence of an A-Rod apologist

Apologist for the proper interpretation of the legal agreements signed between MLB and MLBPA. Not for whimsical hating on someone who doesn't come across as a nice guy in the media.

 

[7foot3]

Drug dealers turn states witness all the time, safe to assume you're fighting the good fight for those who've been put away because of their testimony?

I don't see anyone in A-Rod's camp or otherwise making ANY effort to bring substantive challenges to his testimony, by the way.

Moreover, it was the MLBPA that filed the appeal on behalf of Alex to get the suspension reduced in the first place.

We've never seen such an egregious disregard for the JDA by the player, but we're supposed to take pity on him because the unprecedented punishment fit the unprecedented crime?

Color me unmoved...

Drug dealers don't get truckloads of cash to testify against their clients all the time. And even when they do turn state's witness, their scumminess is a frequently a major issue. See Brian McNamee. But if you really want to go around believing that Bosch is one of the good guys here, go for it.

We don't know what challenges were made where they actually matter, which is not in the public.

That MLBPA stamped it's name on the Rodriguez appeal is nothing more than a formality. They had no choice in the matter.

We saw Melky Cabrera just last year disregard the JDA and attempt to thwart the system to prove his innocence. The punishment? 50 games. We only think we haven't seen such disregard for the JDA, but what we actually haven't seen is so much dirt thrown on a player. This isn't an unprecedented crime, and it is incredibly naive to think that way. And even if it was, that doesn't justify an unprecedented punishment.

but we're supposed to take pity on him because the unprecedented punishment fit the unprecedented crime

This is the big problem right here. We already hate Rodriguez, so we're fine with whatever punishment is meted out against him, regardless of what the legal agreements actually say. We're fine with Selig way overstepping the power he should have, because Rodriguez might as well be the Grinch. It is mind-boggling how many fans are ok with this "whatever is necessary" approach instead of understanding what the rules in place actually prescribe.

 

[AZ_]

Drug dealers don't get truckloads of cash to testify against their clients all the time. And even when they do turn state's witness, their scumminess is a frequently a major issue. See Brian McNamee. But if you really want to go around believing that Bosch is one of the good guys here, go for it.

We don't know what challenges were made where they actually matter, which is not in the public.

That MLBPA stamped it's name on the Rodriguez appeal is nothing more than a formality. They had no choice in the matter.

We saw Melky Cabrera just last year disregard the JDA and attempt to thwart the system to prove his innocence. The punishment? 50 games. We only think we haven't seen such disregard for the JDA, but what we actually haven't seen is so much dirt thrown on a player. This isn't an unprecedented crime, and it is incredibly naive to think that way. And even if it was, that doesn't justify an unprecedented punishment.





This is the big problem right here. We already hate Rodriguez, so we're fine with whatever punishment is meted out against him, regardless of what the legal agreements actually say. We're fine with Selig way overstepping the power he should have, because Rodriguez might as well be the Grinch. It is mind-boggling how many fans are ok with this "whatever is necessary" approach instead of understanding what the rules in place actually prescribe.

Truckloads of cash? Like A-Rod paying of Bosch and subsequently threatening him?

I'm honestly at a loss for words here, and I'm not quite sure what your point is here. MLB's punishment was certainly within their purview based on similar suspensions and the greater magnitude to which A-Rod violated the policies, to an almost relentless extent.

Article XII, section B of the Basic Agreement allows for discipline when MLB finds that a player's actions are materially detrimental or materially prejudicial to the best interests of baseball.

Here, from MLB's statement following the original 211-game suspension:

Rodriguez's discipline under the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program is based on his use and possession of numerous forms of prohibited performance-enhancing substances, including Testosterone and human Growth Hormone, over the course of multiple years. Rodriguez's discipline under the Basic Agreement is for attempting to cover-up his violations of the Program by engaging in a course of conduct intended to obstruct and frustrate the Office of the Commissioner's investigation.

This has nothing to do with "already hating Alex," I said when this whole thing first started that I actually like A-Rod and my impressions my limited exchanges during the 2011-12 were that of a pro's pro. With that said, all the evidence points to egregious violations of the drug agreement and MLB's punishment was more than fitting, quite frankly he's lucky that he'll be able to play in 2015.