Jon Heyman: Biogenesis penalties could be handed down w/in 10 gms

[7foot3]

Truckloads of cash? Like A-Rod paying of Bosch and subsequently threatening him?

I'm honestly at a loss for words here, and I'm not quite sure what your point is here. MLB's punishment was certainly within their purview based on similar suspensions and the greater magnitude to which A-Rod violated the policies, to an almost relentless extent.





This has nothing to do with "already hating Alex," I said when this whole thing first started that I actually like A-Rod and my impressions my limited exchanges during the 2011-12 were that of a pro's pro. With that said, all the evidence points to egregious violations of the drug agreement and MLB's punishment was more than fitting, quite frankly he's lucky that he'll be able to play in 2015.

The A-Rod $50,000 bribe was actually a $49,901.50 accidental mispayment. I'll believe Bosch was actually threatened by Rodriguez when charges are actually brought. You would think the state of Florida would be interested in such public felony offenses. Meanwhile, Manfred's already backed off a bit saying that he couldn't know if Rodriguez was aware of the threat. Sounds like MLB still has some details to actually figure out. Too bad they just assumed what they wanted to, the worst, instead, before dishing out a punishment.

Similar suspensions? The closest first time user drug suspensions were all of the 50 game variety, except for Braun. There's no similar suspension to this. Greater magnitude? Are we really supposed to believe that Rodriguez is the only PED user to have bought and used PEDs over years, and to have gone to great lengths to hide his use? Are you really buying that story from MLB? You're smarter than that. Like I said, Melky Cabrera just last year. MLB didn't seem to care one bit about the "greater magnitude" he used in violating the policies.

Rodriguez's discipline under the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program

Let's look at the discipline outlined by the JDA:

A player who tests positive for a Performance Enhancing Substance, or otherwise violates the Program through the possession or use of a Performance Enhancing Substance, will be subject to the discipline set forth below. (emphasis mine) 1. First violation: 50-game suspension; 2. Second violation: 100-game suspension; 3. Third violation: Permanent suspension from Major League and Minor League Baseball.

Hmm, nothing here about "greater magnitude", "relentless extent" or "egregious violations". Seems like it's simply 50 games for the first time you get busted. Maybe there's some kind of language elsewhere that gives Selig some extra power

A Player may be subject to disciplinary action for just cause by the Commissioner for any Player violation of Section 2 above not referenced in Section 7.A. through Section 7.F. above.

Well, that's something. Except, the preceeding quote was Section 7.A, so we already cover the necessary discipline. Seems like the just cause in the JDA shouldn't apply here. So, we're really left with the arbitrator being woefully incorrect when applying his ruling, or Selig slapping on 112 games of just cause for not much more than "I'm reneging on the terms I previously agreed to"


As for my point? Selig's ability to overstep any signed contracts, specifically to claw money back from the players is worse for the game than any drug usage. And that's before considering just how shady his history in trying to steal money from the players has been. You just want to hear me say that A-Rod did a bad thing? Fine, he did, but I think it's much more important to criticize the right people.

 

[AZ_]

The A-Rod $50,000 bribe was actually a $49,901.50 accidental mispayment.:chuckles: :chuckles: :chuckles: I'll believe Bosch was actually threatened by Rodriguez when charges are actually brought. You would think the state of Florida would be interested in such public felony offenses. Meanwhile, Manfred's already backed off a bit saying that he couldn't know if Rodriguez was aware of the threat. Sounds like MLB still has some details to actually figure out. Too bad they just assumed what they wanted to, the worst, instead, before dishing out a punishment.

Similar suspensions? The closest first time user drug suspensions were all of the 50 game variety, except for Braun. There's no similar suspension to this. Greater magnitude? Are we really supposed to believe that Rodriguez is the only PED user to have bought and used PEDs over years, and to have gone to great lengths to hide his use? Are you really buying that story from MLB? You're smarter than that. Like I said, Melky Cabrera just last year. MLB didn't seem to care one bit about the "greater magnitude" he used in violating the policies.



Let's look at the discipline outlined by the JDA:



Hmm, nothing here about "greater magnitude", "relentless extent" or "egregious violations". Seems like it's simply 50 games for the first time you get busted. Maybe there's some kind of language elsewhere that gives Selig some extra power



Well, that's something. Except, the preceeding quote was Section 7.A, so we already cover the necessary discipline. Seems like the just cause in the JDA shouldn't apply here. So, we're really left with the arbitrator being woefully incorrect when applying his ruling, or Selig slapping on 112 games of just cause for not much more than "I'm reneging on the terms I previously agreed to"


As for my point? Selig's ability to overstep any signed contracts, specifically to claw money back from the players is worse for the game than any drug usage. And that's before considering just how shady his history in trying to steal money from the players has been. You just want to hear me say that A-Rod did a bad thing? Fine, he did, but I think it's much more important to criticize the right people.

Criticizing the right people includes A-Rod, that's what I'd like you to admit quite honestly. I don't see how it's possible that you can remove him of all shaming because you think Bud Selig punished him too much, despite him being allowed to do just that.

You won't believe Bosch was threatened because he says so, but you'll believe A-Rod when he tells you that he "accidentally" made a $50K payment. I'm just not sure I'm buying that...

Bosch is a snake, but it's almost undeniable that he and A-Rod had a long history of drug deals.

First time offender?! I'm guessing you missed 2009 where they suspended him while he was injured for his first offense. This time around they reportedly offered him a plea deal and another 50 game suspension, instead A-Rod decided to fight it and he lost...he lost bloody.

We have NEVER seen someone caught so red-handed violating the JDA over a number of years the same way Rodriguez was. Melky Cabrera did not have the same amount of evidence damning him that A-Rod has. Did MLB potentially sell their soul to acquire such evidence? Surely they did, but it will not change the facts surrounding A-Rod's guilt.


It's simply impossible to believe that he doesn't deserve the blame, nor is it mutually exclusive that I can't simultaneously blame baseball for their ignorance in eliminating these drugs from baseball.

You're simply fighting the wrong fight if you're trying to turn A-Rod into a martyr.

 

[7foot3]

Criticizing the right people includes A-Rod, that's what I'd like you to admit quite honestly. I don't see how it's possible that you can remove him of all shaming because you think Bud Selig punished him too much, despite him being allowed to do just that.

You won't believe Bosch was threatened because he says so, but you'll believe A-Rod when he tells you that he "accidentally" made a $50K payment. I'm just not sure I'm buying that...

Bosch is a snake, but it's almost undeniable that he and A-Rod had a long history of drug deals.

First time offender?! I'm guessing you missed 2009 where they suspended him while he was injured for his first offense. This time around they reportedly offered him a plea deal and another 50 game suspension, instead A-Rod decided to fight it and he lost...he lost bloody.

We have NEVER seen someone caught so red-handed violating the JDA over a number of years the same way Rodriguez was. Melky Cabrera did not have the same amount of evidence damning him that A-Rod has. Did MLB potentially sell their soul to acquire such evidence? Surely they did, but it will not change the facts surrounding A-Rod's guilt.


It's simply impossible to believe that he doesn't deserve the blame, nor is it mutually exclusive that I can't simultaneously blame baseball for their ignorance in eliminating these drugs from baseball.

You're simply fighting the wrong fight if you're trying to turn A-Rod into a martyr.

The wonderful thing about money is there's usually a trail to follow, and in the case of the $40,901.51, there's a bill for that amount, and a wire for that amount. It's pretty easy to follow the money if you actually bother to look. As I've noticed throughout this discussion, you haven't actually been looking at most of the facts in this case.

You'll have to point me to the exact games that Rodriguez was suspended in 2009. At the time, suspensions were still 50 games, and he managed to play 124 that year. I'll let you tell me how 124 and 50 add to 162 or less.

Right, we've never seen it, but that's because MLB didn't air all the dirty laundry with other players like they did with Rodriguez, and not necessarily because Rodriguez violated the JDA any worse than anyone else. And again (and again and again as many times as you need to be told), being "caught so red-handed" makes no difference according to the language of the JDA.

And of course, I've never said Rodriguez is blameless, just that he deserves a lot less vilification than he's getting, especially compared to Selig. You do have some unique interpretations of other people's words though. You say I'm fighting the wrong fight, but the "right" one is the one that apparently makes up it's own JDA language to justify what it wants, and not what the law actually says?

I'll let you get the last word, and make sure you know I said "Rodriguez is a scummy dude", since you still apparently need me to clear that up for you. I'm not going to bother with the conversation anymore with someone who is so obstinate but yet has so clearly ignored so many pertinent facts. If you want to read up some first, maybe we can chat about this again.

 

[AZ_]

The wonderful thing about money is there's usually a trail to follow, and in the case of the $40,901.51, there's a bill for that amount, and a wire for that amount. It's pretty easy to follow the money if you actually bother to look. As I've noticed throughout this discussion, you haven't actually been looking at most of the facts in this case.

You'll have to point me to the exact games that Rodriguez was suspended in 2009. At the time, suspensions were still 50 games, and he managed to play 124 that year. I'll let you tell me how 124 and 50 add to 162 or less.

Right, we've never seen it, but that's because MLB didn't air all the dirty laundry with other players like they did with Rodriguez, and not necessarily because Rodriguez violated the JDA any worse than anyone else. And again (and again and again as many times as you need to be told), being "caught so red-handed" makes no difference according to the language of the JDA.

And of course, I've never said Rodriguez is blameless, just that he deserves a lot less vilification than he's getting, especially compared to Selig. You do have some unique interpretations of other people's words though. You say I'm fighting the wrong fight, but the "right" one is the one that apparently makes up it's own JDA language to justify what it wants, and not what the law actually says?

I'll let you get the last word, and make sure you know I said "Rodriguez is a scummy dude", since you still apparently need me to clear that up for you. I'm not going to bother with the conversation anymore with someone who is so obstinate but yet has so clearly ignored so many pertinent facts. If you want to read up some first, maybe we can chat about this again.

A-Rod was given a GIFT in 2009 in that he was allowed to serve his suspension while he was injured.

For the life of me I can't imagine why you're getting so upset about this, but it was only a matter of time until you pulled the "if you'd read up on this, we can chat about it later" cop out like you're above everyone who doesn't believe "the facts of the case" as laid out by A-Rod's attorney's.

Let's not pretend that you followed the money, you just read an article disputing that it may have been a billing error. I read that article too and quite frankly the report was never even confirmed. Since you followed the facts of the case so unquestionably well, you'd know that the point is moot given that the arbitrator didn't even factor that evidence into his ruling.

The more important money changing hands was the thousands of dollars which A-Rod paid Tony Bosch for performance enhancing drugs, and apparent unrelenting evidence that A-Rod sought to cover up his egregious violations of the JDA based on the ruling of the arbitrator. Since these points are relatively unchallenged, he will continue to get absolutely no pity from me.

He made his bed, he had the opportunity to take the 50-game suspension and declined. His lack of cooperation should and was also be factored in.

The arbitrator ruled that the magnitude of these violations was unprecedented, and thus resulted in the unprecedented punishment. They are covered thanks to the "just cause" provisions in the JDA, and A-Rod's sound and fury in the way of appeals through the federal court won't happen because he doesn't want them to.

He's had TWO opportunities to go under oath to make statements, and both times he has backed out.




I'm just not sure he's got a viable defense, but at least he's got you on board.

 

[7foot3]

A-Rod was given a GIFT in 2009 in that he was allowed to serve his suspension while he was injured.

For the life of me I can't imagine why you're getting so upset about this, but it was only a matter of time until you pulled the "if you'd read up on this, we can chat about it later" cop out like you're above everyone who doesn't believe "the facts of the case" as laid out by A-Rod's attorney's.

Let's not pretend that you followed the money, you just read an article disputing that it may have been a billing error. I read that article too and quite frankly the report was never even confirmed. Since you followed the facts of the case so unquestionably well, you'd know that the point is moot given that the arbitrator didn't even factor that evidence into his ruling.

The more important money changing hands was the thousands of dollars which A-Rod paid Tony Bosch for performance enhancing drugs, and apparent unrelenting evidence that A-Rod sought to cover up his egregious violations of the JDA based on the ruling of the arbitrator. Since these points are relatively unchallenged, he will continue to get absolutely no pity from me.

He made his bed, he had the opportunity to take the 50-game suspension and declined. His lack of cooperation should and was also be factored in.

The arbitrator ruled that the magnitude of these violations was unprecedented, and thus resulted in the unprecedented punishment. They are covered thanks to the "just cause" provisions in the JDA, and A-Rod's sound and fury in the way of appeals through the federal court won't happen because he doesn't want them to.

He's had TWO opportunities to go under oath to make statements, and both times he has backed out.




I'm just not sure he's got a viable defense, but at least he's got you on board.

Against my better judgement.


I'm still waiting for you to explain how he served a 50 game suspension in the 28 games that he missed to open the 2009 season.

I'm more concerned with the money going from MLB to Bosch than Rodriguez to Bosch. You know, the guy they said they were suing for tortious interference. Pretty impressive of MLB to claim the guy was costing him money, then turn around and hand him bags of cash. Except that MLB just dropped the lawsuit. Its a damn shame that, all of a sudden now that Rodriguez is suspended, MLB seems unable to prove that Bosch cost them money, because the only alternative could be that they were absolutely abusing the legal system to threaten Bosch into testifying as they wanted. Rodriguez paying Bosch's legal bills when it looked like Bosch would be a witness for him makes sense. MLB paying Bosch in the same breath that they were suing him makes a lot less sense.

Keep using the useless adjectives to describe Rodriguez's actions. They make no difference and you know it. "Unprecedented magnitude" is not defined or even used in the JDA. There is no basis for you to use that term. And yet you keep coming back to it. Because the only way to pretend that Rodriguez's punishment was accurate is to ignore the JDA entirely. I already explained the "just cause" provision to you. I'll let you scroll up and read that it only applies to areas that weren't expressly covered earlier in the agreement. Your entire argument keeps circling back to the same point that can't be defended, which is why I said I was sick of arguing with someone who can't even follow the basic facts.

Here's the most basic fact necessary. Either this was Rodriguez's first violation, and the JDA is incredibly clear that is worth only a 50 game suspension. The alternative could only be that Rodriguez's multiple uses count as multiple violations, despite the language of the JDA not expressing as much, and since they're telling us it's more than three that Rodriguez should be banned from baseball. Except we get neither of those. We get a completely arbitrary figure. There's no "162 games for unprecedented magnitude, egregious violations, unrelenting evidence, etc". There's just 50 games for a first violation, 100 for a second, and a ban for a third, and just cause only for what doesn't fit in the expressly defined language. We can talk about this more if you can understand this point, but if you're going to keep repeating at me nonsense about "unprecedented magnitude", which is just proof that you don't want to follow the JDA, then there's no place for us to go here.


Selig has had opportunities to go under oath too, and he won't either. I don't know why you're so intent to only hammer one side for not playing nice on this matter, whether it's the lying, not going under oath, or paying Bosch. You keep accusing me of removing all shaming from him when I've stated multiple times that he deserved a suspension. You're the one skimping on applying the blame to everyone who made a mockery of this situation.

 

[AZ_]

Selig has had opportunities to go under oath too, and he won't either. I don't know why you're so intent to only hammer one side for not playing nice on this matter, whether it's the lying, not going under oath, or paying Bosch. You keep accusing me of removing all shaming from him when I've stated multiple times that he deserved a suspension. You're the one skimping on applying the blame to everyone who made a mockery of this situation.

I guess you've missed my numerous attempts to tell you that I agree MLB's part in this was far from clean, or that the arbitrator didn't seem to buy their version of the story either.

It seems as though your beef should be with Freddie Horowitz, the arbitrator, who stated that A-Rod's use of performance enhancing drugs was above and beyond what we've seen from any other player in this league.

To say nothing of the fact we haven't been presented with the same evidence as he has, transcripts, the money trail you hold so near and dear to your heart, etc.


I'll side with the arbitrator, you side with the tantrum-prone A-Rod and his attorney's as the voice of reason in this argument. You'll continue to have little public support, with good reason.

 

[7foot3]

I guess you've missed my numerous attempts to tell you that I agree MLB's part in this was far from clean, or that the arbitrator didn't seem to buy their version of the story either.

It seems as though your beef should be with Freddie Horowitz, the arbitrator, who stated that A-Rod's use of performance enhancing drugs was above and beyond what we've seen from any other player in this league.

To say nothing of the fact we haven't been presented with the same evidence as he has, transcripts, the money trail you hold so near and dear to your heart, etc.


I'll side with the arbitrator, you side with the tantrum-prone A-Rod and his attorney's as the voice of reason in this argument. You'll continue to have little public support, with good reason.

It's already been shown that arbitrators in MLB cases can't be expected to be independent in appearance, considering MLB's proclivity to fire anyone that doesn't give an answer they like. And for all the arbitrator's talk about not buying their version of the story, he gave them exactly what they wanted, Rodriguez suspended through the end of 2014. Sounds like he bought exactly what they wanted.

And just today, Mariners outfielder Cavan Cohoes was suspended for 50 games (one time violation) for testing positive for two substances. It looks like using multiple drugs is only an issue when it comes to Rodriguez. I'm just siding with the letter of the law, you can side with the guy under the thumb of one of the most corrupt leaders the sport has ever seen.

 

[AZ_]

It's already been shown that arbitrators in MLB cases can't be expected to be independent in appearance, considering MLB's proclivity to fire anyone that doesn't give an answer they like.

And just today, Mariners outfield Cavan Cohoes was suspended for 50 games (one time violation) for testing positive for two substances. It looks like using multiple drugs is only an issue when it comes to Rodriguez. I'm just siding with the letter of the law, you can side with the guy under the thumb of one of the most corrupt leaders the sport has ever seen.

Was their substantial evidence that he took these substances over a number of years, developed a money trail leading to a busted PEDs dealer, then orchestrated a plot to cover his tracks?

If not, I'm not so sure they're the same...

 

[7foot3]

Was their substantial evidence that he took these substances over a number of years, developed a money trail leading to a busted PEDs dealer, then orchestrated a plot to cover his tracks?

If not, I'm not so sure they're the same...

We've seen all those things before. Multiple, long-term use, dirty dealers, plots to cover tracks. They only mean more than 50 games in one case. The guy that the greedy, dirty, money-stealing, lying-in-front-of-Congress Selig has been out to get for years.

 

[AZ_]

We've seen all those things before. Multiple, long-term use, dirty dealers, plots to cover tracks. They only mean more than 50 games in one case. The guy that the greedy, dirty, money-stealing, lying-in-front-of-Congress Selig has been out to get for years.

Poor A-Rod....poor poor A-Rod.

There's no widespread vendetta against him, he's simply the poster child for PED usage throughout the league and I'd challenge you to find someone who did this on a grander scale.

 

[BMAN]

Is anyone else reading this thread other than you two?!

 

[dano_24_26]

Is anyone else reading this thread other than you two?!

No.

 

[7foot3]

Poor A-Rod....poor poor A-Rod.

There's no widespread vendetta against him, he's simply the poster child for PED usage throughout the league and I'd challenge you to find someone who did this on a grander scale.

Well that settles that then. Just like MLB, boobie's argument is simply "it's true because I say so". Actually, that sounds like just about all of boobie's arguments. When we find MLB willing to do as much digging on another player, we'll find someone who matches A-Rod on this matter. The only difference between past drug busts and this is how dirty MLB was willing to get.

 

[BMAN]

Oh Jesus.

 

[AZ_]

Oh Jesus.

This.

No reason at all to bump this thread, much less doing it just to cry about MLB trying too hard to bury A-Rod.