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Kyrie Irving

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I assume this is the Kyrie/Windhorst interview/article being referred to:


LAS VEGAS -- The period of congratulating and backslapping for the Cleveland Cavaliers organization is drawing toward a close. The realization of what their incredible offseason means is starting to sink in.

LeBron James is back, Kevin Love may be on the way, and expectations and pressure are about to arrive right on their heels. It's what would be considered a happy problem -- one the team's principals have already started considering.

"Our team, we have a lot of work to do," Cavs All-Star Kyrie Irving said this week during Team USA training camp. "Everyone is going to be coming for us, and that is what you want as a competitor, especially in the NBA. When it comes to that point, I'll be prepared."

Irving and teammate Dion Waiters are both in Las Vegas this week with the pressing focus of the national team. Irving is in a fight to make the roster for the first time, and Waiters is part of the Select Team, an indication of his growing status, much like where Irving was in 2012.
But the duo's thoughts in some of the daily workouts are naturally drifting toward October, when they will share the floor with a vastly improved team that will also significantly change their roles.

A year ago, Irving and Waiters were seen as the cornerstones of the Cavs' future. Now they are the supporting cast for a four-time MVP. That fits nicely in a sentence and perhaps on the chalkboard, but both young guards are facing a major alteration in their worlds and, on a much more basic level, how much time they're going to have the ball in their hands.
<cite style="margin: 0px; padding: 10px 10px 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: baseline; display: block; clear: right; text-align: right; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background: transparent;">-- Dion Waiters</cite>​
At times Waiters and Irving have had issues just sharing between themselves during their two seasons together. Last season, coach Mike Brown ended up moving Waiters to the bench so he could get more time as the featured ball handler. The Cavs were underwhelming with this setup and now will have to deal with things getting diluted further.

"You do think about [changes] because you're going to be playing with the greatest player in the game," Irving said. "I've talked to several teammates about how we're going to have to change our games."

It's more complex than just looking at shot totals, but that is a tidy stat that paints a bit of a picture of what the Cavs' array of offensive options must manage.

Last season, James averaged 17.6 shots a game, which was marginally the least he put up in his four years with the Miami Heat. Teammate Dwyane Wade averaged 14.1 a game, four fewer than in his first season with James in 2010-11. Chris Bosh averaged 12.1. This generally worked fantastically as the Heat were the No. 2 offensive team in the league behind the Los Angeles Clippers during the regular season.
With that in mind, realize that Irving averaged 17.4 shots a game for the Cavs last season and Waiters averaged 14.2 and probably would have preferred more. It is germane to also include Love, who the Cavs are deeply focused on acquiring with signs pointing toward a deal eventually happening. Love averaged 18.5 shots per game last season as the primary offensive option with the Minnesota Timberwolves.

The Cavs ranked 23rd in offensive efficiency last season with Irving and Waiters taking the bulk of the shots. In the 40 games Luol Deng played after being traded to Cleveland in January, the offense actually sagged a little with Deng managing to get just 12.7 shots a game, his fewest in five seasons.

Deng is no James, obviously. There's a new coaching staff led by David Blatt, who had a reputation for designing flexible offensive systems around different types of players in Europe. But there's also going to be some requirement from Irving and Waiters to re-evaluate their games a little.

Waiters has created a few minor waves already this summer when he said he wants to be back in the starting lineup at shooting guard alongside Irving and James. But he seems just as interested in studying the way Wade learned to play with James, which counts for something.
"I have to make adjustments," Waiters said. "I like to have the ball, and we have Kyrie, and he likes to have the ball. So I have to find ways to impact the game without having the ball. I'm planning to go watch tape to see what D-Wade did when he played with LeBron. I need to learn how to be effective out there with him."

Wade and Waiters have similar styles of games; neither is a strong outside shooter who would excel waiting on the perimeter for James to deliver a pass. It took Wade awhile, but he learned to be highly effective cutting off the ball and finding space playing alongside James. Heat coach Erik Spoelstra also constructed effective rotations where Wade played frequently without James on the floor.

"[Wade] is a ball-dominant guard, too, and when LeBron came over, he had to change his game, too," Waiters said. "He was so efficient, though, and that really helped their game. I think I can learn a lot from what he did."

Perhaps more important than all of these July ideas and promises, though, is that James returned to Cleveland in some part because he felt strongly about the Cavs' young talent. It is incumbent on him to make it work to a certain degree, even if that talent hasn't yet reached its potential. Irving and Waiters are both just 22.

"I think it's good for me at the end of the day," Waiters said, "because I can prove to people I can do other things than just score. I need to go play the right way, listen to LeBron and be a sponge and try to soak up what he's going to tell me."

There is something to be gleaned from the fact that Waiters has not been featured prominently in trade packages discussed with the Wolves for Love. James is known to appreciate Waiters' ability, even with the potential challenges of playing with him. Meanwhile, James has developed a relationship with Irving since the point guard's high school days. As LeBron wrote in his essay announcing his return to the Cavs, he is looking forward to mentoring both players.

"He came to the team to play with me, and I've got to be ready to play with him," Irving said. "Obviously we're all going to have to make sacrifices to our game in order to be great."
 
Catching up on this Irving/Curry debate, the whole debate seems bizarre to me. It's not that complicated:

1. Of course Curry, right now, is a better player than Kyrie is right now. Curry is 26 years old, in his prime, and has played 5 NBA seasons. Kyrie is 22 and played 3 seasons and is still a year or two from his prime.

The questions are: how huge is the current gap and can Kyrie ever close it?

2. When you compare the season's that each had as a 21 year old (Kyries most recent season), Kyrie was better. And yes, CavsFTW, that is using Win Shares (since you've said the stats must be tied it to winning, not just "empty stats"). I'd also like to point out that Kyrie's DEFENSIVE win shares were also higher.

3. Remember, too, this 21 year-old vs 21 year-old comp is using Kyrie's most recent season in which he regressed. It's not even using his best NBA season. In other words, the 21 year-old Kyrie was way better than the 21 year-old Curry, even factoring in Kyrie's regression.

4. Obviously, Kyrie can't keep regressing. He's going to have to get moving forward again. Let's hope playing with Bron and Blatt and general improvement that comes with age (and, perhaps, Team USA at FIBA) helps him do that.

But when you compare apples to apples, there's no a priori reason to think that the 26 year old Kyrie won't be as good or better than the 26 year old Curry. Sure it might not happen -- none of us can truly predict the future -- but there's no factual reason to make that assumption.
 
Catching up on this Irving/Curry debate, the whole debate seems bizarre to me. It's not that complicated:

1. Of course Curry, right now, is a better player than Kyrie is right now. Curry is 26 years old, in his prime, and has played 5 NBA seasons. Kyrie is 22 and played 3 seasons and is still a year or two from his prime.

Agreed.

2. When you compare the season's that each had as a 21 year old (Kyries most recent season), Kyrie was better. And yes, CavsFTW, that is using Win Shares (since you've said the stats must be tied it to winning, not just "empty stats"). I'd also like to point out that Kyrie's DEFENSIVE win shares were also higher.
I appreciate the stats, Sir John -- but I disagree with how they're being used here. Age comparisons can be useful, but they can also be misleading. You're comparing a 3 year vet to a rookie, which is just as pointless today as it was when people were doing it with LeBron. Of course the 3 year vet should be better -- he had a 2 year head start! Even Durant and LeBron struggled as rookies.

4. Obviously, Kyrie can't keep regressing. He's going to have to get moving forward again. Let's hope playing with Bron and Blatt and general improvement that comes with age (and, perhaps, Team USA at FIBA) helps him do that.
Agreed.

But when you compare apples to apples, there's no a priori reason to think that the 26 year old Kyrie won't be as good or better than the 26 year old Curry. Sure it might not happen -- none of us can truly predict the future -- but there's no factual reason to make that assumption.
Strongly disagree here. Curry's growth curve clearly demonstrates why he's the player he is today. He's improved little by little each season. Irving has shown very little growth curve, which is why I'm not nearly as hopeful as you are about him ever reaching Curry's level. Many players reach the level Irving's at; only a select few reach the level Curry's currently at.

Curry (WS/48)

2010 .077
2011 .128
2012 .144
2013 .180
2014 .225

Irving (WS/48)

2012 .125
2013 .125
2014 .128

Curry (RAPM)

2010 -2.22
2011 -0.33
2012 1.45
2013 2.52
2014 3.84

Irving (RAPM)

2012 -3.09
2013 -2.07
2014 -1.39

Also, Kyrie's TS% has gone down each season, while Curry's has gone up. Kyrie's PER/USG ratio has also gone down each season, while Curry's has gone up.

With partial exception to RAPM, none of these are positive trends for Kyrie.
 
Except that offensively, the argument can be made that each season, Kyrie has had less to work with around him on offense. This also mirrors the fact that teams not only realized how good he is, but also designed schemes that revolved around stopping only Kyrie.

With Curry, the opposite has happened over time.
 
Except that offensively, the argument can be made that each season, Kyrie has had less to work with around him on offense. This also mirrors the fact that teams not only realized how good he is, but also designed schemes that revolved around stopping only Kyrie.

With Curry, the opposite has happened over time.

The numbers, meanwhile, argue the exact opposite.

Cleveland Cavaliers (Offensive Rating)

2012 98.1
2013 100.8
2014 101.3

Cleveland Cavaliers (Points Per Game)

2012 93.0
2013 96.5
2014 98.2

Cleveland Cavaliers (TS%)

2012 50.5
2013 51.4
2014 51.8
 
Curry has been playing on a much more talented team. Kyrie basically had one other guy who could consistently create his own offense in Waiters. This allows other teams to primarily gameplay to stopping or frustrating Kyrie. It's not as cut and dry as some people make it seem about Kyrie and his decline in play last season. Watch what he does this year with quality talent on the team.
 
The numbers, meanwhile, argue the exact opposite.

Cleveland Cavaliers (Offensive Rating)

2012 98.1
2013 100.8
2014 101.3

Cleveland Cavaliers (Points Per Game)

2012 93.0
2013 96.5
2014 98.2

Cleveland Cavaliers (TS%)

2012 50.5
2013 51.4
2014 51.8

They're all very close, however. We're talking about less than 2% difference in TS. The ppg is the largest difference because we saw them play their fastest pace this past season.

Is Kyrie, the point guard, not a factor in the rising ratings? I ask this honestly. While his personal numbers have trended a bit downward, the team's have gone upward. That's interesting.

This past season was especially unique because the final roster was much, MUCH better offensively than what opened the season and played the majority of the time. As sad as it is, Anthony Parker and Antawn Jamison were better fits to open up Kyrie's game than Earl Clark, Andrew Bynum, and Tristan were. When we saw Hawes as a floor spacer and Deng as another somewhat legitimate threat, Kyrie began to flourish.

I think we forget just how prolific Kyrie was for the vast majority of his second season.
 
Curry has been playing on a much more talented team. Kyrie basically had one other guy who could consistently create his own offense in Waiters. This allows other teams to primarily gameplay to stopping or frustrating Kyrie. It's not as cut and dry as some people make it seem about Kyrie and his decline in play last season. Watch what he does this year with quality talent on the team.
Curry is also the best player on a talented team, whereas Kyrie's status of best player is questionable on a far less talented team.
 
It will be interested to see if Kyrie plays a bit more motivated this year knowing that we're going to be really good.
 
Curry is also the best player on a talented team, whereas Kyrie's status of best player is questionable on a far less talented team.
No. Kyrie was the Cavs best player. Obviously he's not better than LeBron or potentially Kevin Love, but neither is Curry.
 
They're all very close, however. We're talking about less than 2% difference in TS. The ppg is the largest difference because we saw them play their fastest pace this past season.

Is Kyrie, the point guard, not a factor in the rising ratings? I ask this honestly. While his personal numbers have trended a bit downward, the team's have gone upward. That's interesting.

This past season was especially unique because the final roster was much, MUCH better offensively than what opened the season and played the majority of the time. As sad as it is, Anthony Parker and Antawn Jamison were better fits to open up Kyrie's game than Earl Clark, Andrew Bynum, and Tristan were. When we saw Hawes as a floor spacer and Deng as another somewhat legitimate threat, Kyrie began to flourish.

I think we forget just how prolific Kyrie was for the vast majority of his second season.
You're right -- the improvement hasn't been significant, but the O has improved marginally. It would've improved quite a bit more last season had Grant not added Clark, Bennett, Bynum, and Jack. They offset the positive impact Varejao made playing a full season, as well as Zeller's improvement.
 
No. Kyrie was the Cavs best player.

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

Anderson Varejao .173
Kyrie Irving .125

RAPM

Anderson Varejao 3.46
Kyrie Irving -1.39

Obviously he's not better than LeBron or potentially Kevin Love, but neither is Curry.
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1. Kevin Durant .295
2. Chris Paul .270
3. LeBron James .264
4. Kevin Love .245
5. Stephen Curry .225


RAPM

Stephen Curry 3.84
Kevin Love 2.90

It will be interested to see if Kyrie plays a bit more motivated this year knowing that we're going to be really good.

LeBron will make Kyrie better. Kyrie's ability to play off the ball is also one of his strengths. We just didn't see it much before since it's hard to play off the ball when he always had it. Kyrie's attitude should change for good as soon as he takes a peek at his improved shooting numbers (the LeBron effect) and the improved record (again, the LeBron effect). If that doesn't change it, then nothing will.
 
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

Anderson Varejao .173
Kyrie Irving .125

RAPM

Anderson Varejao 3.46
Kyrie Irving -1.39


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1. Kevin Durant .295
2. Chris Paul .270
3. LeBron James .264
4. Kevin Love .245
5. Stephen Curry .225


RAPM

Stephen Curry 3.84
Kevin Love 2.90
Lol... So Andy is the Cavs best player and Stephen Curry is better than Kevin Love? Got it.

Can't argue with the blind. Good day.
 
Catching up on this Irving/Curry debate, the whole debate seems bizarre to me. It's not that complicated:

1. Of course Curry, right now, is a better player than Kyrie is right now. Curry is 26 years old, in his prime, and has played 5 NBA seasons. Kyrie is 22 and played 3 seasons and is still a year or two from his prime.

The questions are: how huge is the current gap and can Kyrie ever close it?

2. When you compare the season's that each had as a 21 year old (Kyries most recent season), Kyrie was better. And yes, CavsFTW, that is using Win Shares (since you've said the stats must be tied it to winning, not just "empty stats"). I'd also like to point out that Kyrie's DEFENSIVE win shares were also higher.

3. Remember, too, this 21 year-old vs 21 year-old comp is using Kyrie's most recent season in which he regressed. It's not even using his best NBA season. In other words, the 21 year-old Kyrie was way better than the 21 year-old Curry, even factoring in Kyrie's regression.

4. Obviously, Kyrie can't keep regressing. He's going to have to get moving forward again. Let's hope playing with Bron and Blatt and general improvement that comes with age (and, perhaps, Team USA at FIBA) helps him do that.

But when you compare apples to apples, there's no a priori reason to think that the 26 year old Kyrie won't be as good or better than the 26 year old Curry. Sure it might not happen -- none of us can truly predict the future -- but there's no factual reason to make that assumption.

I didn't realize Curry was that old. I thought he was the same age. He looks even younger to be honest. That is probably why.
 
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